'02 TDI - No start or starts and immediately dies.

MaverickH1

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Jul 12, 2011
Location
Roanoke, VA
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2002 Jetta TDI
Details in text below. I will edit in details here as the thread goes:

- After running fine for about 2 years, the car all of a sudden won't start. It cranks just fine. Sometimes it will fire up like normal, but then it shuts off 2 seconds later. When it cranks, it seems to be cranking a little faster than it used to.
- Anti-shudder system seems to be working as it should. Pulling the vacuum hose off results in no change.
- Some oil in the EGR when I remove the intake hose and reach in and wipe the bottom.
- Timing belt is overdue by about 3,000 miles. I kept checking it every oil change and never noticed any issues. Now it's missing some of the edges and definitely needs to be replaced.
- I got not voltage on the Fuel Shutoff Valve with the key in the RUN position. I assume this means that the signal is not opening the fuel shutoff and thus fuel is not flowing to the injectors. I jumped from the battery directly to the valve and it made a clicking noise like it was functioning properly. Car still wouldn't start.
- Looked at the 109 relay. Bench tested it, it clicked over just fine. Seemed to be clicking over in the car as well.
- I'm not noticing any interlock security issues.
- I cracked 2 fuel injector lines and noticed when fuel was spitting out the car was trying to run, and as soon as it stopped trying to run (while still cranking) zero fuel was coming out. It seems like I've confirmed that I have a problem where something is shutting the fuel off. I removed the fuel shut off valve and bench tested it, it worked as expected.

I don't have Vag-Com. My scan tool is at my shop, I'll try to get it tomorrow. I don't have any wiring diagrams or manuals that I'm aware of for this car (which is a first for me).

Reading this thread now: Car won't start troubleshooting | TDIClub Forums
 
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P2B

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Toronto & Muskoka, Canada
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2002 Jetta, 2003 Jetta, 2003 Jetta Wagon
Faster than normal cranking and visible wear on the belt are both red flags pointing to a timing issue. I would check static timing before any further cranking attempts, and turn the engine through two full rotations by hand to check the belt for missing teeth.
 

Mpaw

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WIth a damaged / worn timing belt, and that you say the crankshaft cog might have slipped, I wouldn't risk not changing the timing belt first and set the timing. You need to do it anyway and you're not going to scrap it - or?

I don't have any manuals for a Jetta 2002 but for Golf-V-2004-2007-Variant-Plus-Jetta, where VW state that, and for many similarly aged diesels, belt should be changed every 120 km or 150 km = 75k or ~ 92 k miles. I thought you said 175 k miles in your video...?
What's your engine code? If it's ALH:
 
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MaverickH1

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Jul 12, 2011
Location
Roanoke, VA
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2002 Jetta TDI
It's hard to tell. If the engine is shot from timing issues... yeah it'd probably be headed to the scrap yard.

I was going by when to change the timing belt based off of sticker in the engine compartment. It said it needed to be changed by 171,000 miles, now the car is somewhere in the territory of 174k or 175k. I probably checked the belt at 168k and every oil change before that and it looked great. This was a low mileage enough car that I was worried about how old the timing belt was and not just the mileage, so I was checking it pretty often.

I assume engine code is ALH, it is a 2002.

Does it make sense that timing could result in consistent fuel delivery where the car starts and runs and then just immediately stops trying to spray fuel?

Sounds like I'll have to get it on a trailer and bring it to my shop for a closer look.

/sigh. This couldn't have come at a worse time.
 

J_dude

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SK Canada
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2003 1.9l “Jedi”
I probably checked the belt at 168k and every oil change before that and it looked great.
FYI.
The belt is usually not what fails, but rather one of the many spinning parts along it’s path. Checking the belt won’t tell you if a roller’s bearing is going bad and about to take the belt out when it fails.
Definitely check the timing, and I also would recommend changing the timing belt, water pump, idler rollers and tensioner before starting it.
 

MaverickH1

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Location
Roanoke, VA
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2002 Jetta TDI
FYI.
The belt is usually not what fails, but rather one of the many spinning parts along it’s path. Checking the belt won’t tell you if a roller’s bearing is going bad and about to take the belt out when it fails.
Definitely check the timing, and I also would recommend changing the timing belt, water pump, idler rollers and tensioner before starting it.
What should I do to check that the engine is in good health? If I never heard any loud clanking, slapping, or any of that, is it safe to assume that a piston hasn't made contact with anything? Or do I need to remove the valve cover or head too and make sure?

I don't want invest $900 in a timing belt, tools, and VagCom only to find out the engine is screwed or the injection pump is screwed and the car should be scrapped.

It still doesn't make sense to me why the fuel would happily spray out of the injectors and then completely shut off due to timing. Unless the belt is spinning the injection pump intermittently...
 

oilhammer

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outside St Louis, MO
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There are just too many to list....
Doesn't make sense to me why you haven't verified the timing belt integrity and timing by now. If nothing else, at least rule that out, and stop trying to start it if that is in fact what happened.

If the car is in decent shape, sell it as is to someone who will. They aren't making any more of these. People like me resurrect them all the time. I've untooefed countless cars just like that, many still on the road today.
 

MaverickH1

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Roanoke, VA
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2002 Jetta TDI
Doesn't make sense to me why you haven't verified the timing belt integrity and timing by now. If nothing else, at least rule that out, and stop trying to start it if that is in fact what happened.

If the car is in decent shape, sell it as is to someone who will. They aren't making any more of these. People like me resurrect them all the time. I've untooefed countless cars just like that, many still on the road today.
My search on how to turn over the engine by hand revealed I have to jack the car up, remove the wheel and wheelwell cover, remove the harmonic balancer, THEN I'd be able to rotate the engine. I haven't had time to do that, yet.

I'm likely going to winch the car onto my trailer so I can bring it to my waterjet shop so I can have it where all of my tools actually are. I watched videos until 2 AM last night to try to figure out how to do a visual timing check, and was unable to find a clear answer.

I've only done 2 timing belt changes in 20 years. I don't do this for a full time job.

I'm trying to do anything else I can to verify that the timing isn't screwed up.
 

J_dude

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My search on how to turn over the engine by hand revealed I have to jack the car up, remove the wheel and wheelwell cover, remove the harmonic balancer, THEN I'd be able to rotate the engine. I haven't had time to do that, yet.
That’s not necessary, just need a 19mm 12 point socket. The crank bolt is accessible without removing wheel and harmonic balancer.

Checking the mechanical timing is outlined in the timing belt replacement procedure how-to’s, of which there are several. I don’t have a link to one at the moment but a search will bring it up (using google, put “site:forums.tdiclub.com” along with whatever you’re looking for, for best results).
 

Mpaw

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Caddy 2005 1,9 105 ps; Polo 2015 90PS Bluemotion, T5 2.5 5cyl
I don't want invest $900 in a timing belt, tools, and VagCom only to find out the engine is screwed or the injection pump is screwed and the car should be scrapped.

It still doesn't make sense to me why the fuel would happily spray out of the injectors and then completely shut off due to timing. Unless the belt is spinning the injection pump intermittently...
In your video you showed that the TB is damaged. If it breaks or slips it can cause *major* damage (often piston - valve contact, which if you're lucky is 'just' a valve replacement job, but still more hassle than changing a timing belt that needs changing anyway).

I understand the problem about tools and costs. It has taken me many years to acquire my toolset and it certainly wasn't free. But like J_Dude wrote (as I was writing) you don't need so many for that - although I would add a crankshaft lock and some kind of diagnostic tool that can read measuring block 004 would be useful. Your fuel is there when it's trying to run, which is hopeful. If your timing is way out, the fuel might not ignite due to lack of compression. But of course, investment in tools does tend to commit you.
 
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jokila

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Dec 3, 2004
Location
Houston, Texas
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2003 Jetta GLS, Manual
My search on how to turn over the engine by hand revealed I have to jack the car up, remove the wheel and wheelwell cover, remove the harmonic balancer, THEN I'd be able to rotate the engine. I haven't had time to do that, yet.

I'm likely going to winch the car onto my trailer so I can bring it to my waterjet shop so I can have it where all of my tools actually are. I watched videos until 2 AM last night to try to figure out how to do a visual timing check, and was unable to find a clear answer.

I've only done 2 timing belt changes in 20 years. I don't do this for a full time job.

I'm trying to do anything else I can to verify that the timing isn't screwed up.

Nice mark and pray marks. :rolleyes: Someone with less knowledge was once in there doing a timing belt.

As Oilhammer has said, get the basics of the timing sequence verified as to be correct. Everything you are thinking about has other steps that go ahead of it in the troubleshooting process.

The only way to verify the timing isn't screwed up is to actually check it out. It's a manual process. I don't catch you know exactly how that goes so here is what I would do:
1) Rotate the crank to TDC with a 19mm 12point socket. It's easy enough to do it from below. You don't need the wheel off.
2) To verify the injection pump you will need to use a mirror on a stick and a flashlight. If the engine is at TDC, you should be able to see the hole through the sprocket where the lock pin would go. If not, it's misaligned and will prevent the engine from starting.
3) To verify the cam, you will need to use your cam index/lock tool with the valve cover and vacuum pump off. With the crank at TDC, the tool should be able to be inserted.

You can definitely do #1 and #2 easily with minimal tools.
 
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Vince Waldon

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Apr 25, 2009
Location
Edmonton AB Canada
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2001 ALH Jetta, 2003 ALH Wagon, 2005 BEW Wagon
The ALH timing belt pdf: https://www.tdiclub.com/articles/pdf/a4timingbelt.pdf

Pg 45 and beyond shows setting the crank to TDC, using the marks on the flywheel as viewed thru the inspection hole in the transmission.

Pg 43-45 show verifying the cam is thereby at TDC, valve cover off, both cam lobes on #1 pointing up

Pg 83 shows the hole the IP locking pin (can use a drill bit) should go in at TDC.

With the crank at TDC:
- if the cam or IP are off the engine won't start
- if the cam is more than a tiny bit off mechanical valve/lifter damage has occurred and the head needs to come off for a full inspection.
 

MaverickH1

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Location
Roanoke, VA
TDI
2002 Jetta TDI
Thank you all so much! I brought everything home today to check the timing, but had to do farm work instead.

I did check codes and had a P0725. I double checked the timing belt sticker as well... I think whomever did it put in the wrong information. It says it was changed at 71k and due again at 171k.

Stupid me never thought to check if 100k was the proper interval since it's what I'm used to in other vehicles. As you mentioned jokila, looks like it wasn't a very well done timing belt the first time.

Seems like there's also a system that shuts off fuel if the car has been cranking too long based on other posts in the forums. That explains the fuel issue I *thought* I understood.

I'm going to be shocked if it didn't jump timing based on what I'm seeing. Will update when I can verify.
 
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oilhammer

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outside St Louis, MO
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There are just too many to list....
People botch these timing belt jobs all the time, unfortunately. This can lead to all kinds of calamities.

100k miles is the normal interval post-2001, and those same parts get installed on pre-2002 cars all the time, and if done correctly they generally have no issue with going 100k miles and in some cases people will stretch them much longer (I certainly do not recommend this).
 

Tdijarhead

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Lawrenceville PA
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2003 TDI Jetta Daughters Car, 2001 TDI Beetle, Wife’s car, 2005 Golf TDI Mine, all 5 spds
Visually inspecting the timing belt is like inspecting a light bulb, it works till it doesn’t.

You do not need to remove anything to rotate the timing belt through a complete cycle except the upper timing belt cover which is clipped on. Although removing the passenger side front tire is helpful.

Use a 19mm 12 point socket on the crank bolt to turn the engine over in a clockwise direction. Mark the belt so you know when you have made a complete cycle.

Follow the instructions in the pdf Vince has linked above and check the mechanical (static) timing of your engine. You have likely shredded some teeth.
 
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Mpaw

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Caddy 2005 1,9 105 ps; Polo 2015 90PS Bluemotion, T5 2.5 5cyl
Timing belt chnages: on my wife's newer TDI the change is at 130 kmiles, on mine it's 75 kmiles - the only difference is the length - otherwise the belt is identical. I recently changed hers and the old one looked in very good condition. The water pump and tensioner are quite different, and she has an extra cog which drives a high pressure pump. This suggests that J_Dude is quite correct - the tensioner etc. normally wear out first, or the stress on the belt is different
 

J_dude

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2003 1.9l “Jedi”
This suggests that J_Dude is quite correct - the tensioner etc. normally wear out first, or the stress on the belt is different
Yeah I helped two of my buddies do TB’s this summer, both had cars with unknown belt history and both belts looked fine, but both had idler pulleys that sounded like rock crushers and on one of them the tensioner was audibly on borrowed time as well.

Visually inspecting the timing belt is like inspecting a light bulb, it works till it doesn’t.
Very well put.
 

Mpaw

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Caddy 2005 1,9 105 ps; Polo 2015 90PS Bluemotion, T5 2.5 5cyl
I forgot to mention the P0725:

Crankshaft Position (CKP) Sensor (G28) harness is open or shorted.
Crankshaft Position (CKP) Sensor (G28) poor electrical connection.
Communication error between the Engine Control Module (ECM) and Transmission Control Module (TCM).
Check for loose Engine Control Module (ECM) power relay.
 

MaverickH1

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Roanoke, VA
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2002 Jetta TDI
I still haven't had a chance to check timing. The car is so short that I can't get to it from underneath.

I'm going to winch it up on my trailer and take it to the shop hopefully this weekend. Driving my 12 mpg truck surrre does suck. :D
 

DonL

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Kingman, Arizona
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2005 Jetta TDI wagon (BEW)
Some years ago I dropped my Jetta key into a cup of coffee. Yeah, I know, genius move. That was the end of any clicking with that key. However, since it had no effect on the actual key I stuck it in the ignition and started the car. It started and immediately died. I tried it a couple more times with the same result. I paid an outrageous price for a pair on new keys from the VW dealer in Henderson, NV.

Is there any chance your problem is just a dead key?
 

MaverickH1

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Roanoke, VA
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2002 Jetta TDI
Okay. Finally got it to the shop and finished one project to get it out of the way and make time to start troubleshooting the TDI.



I did end up having to take the wheel off and the wheel cover off to be able to get to the crankshaft bolt. I think if the car was up in the air I might be able to get to those from the back of the car, but sitting on the ground with the passenger side jacked up and wheel removed wasn't working for the tools I had.

I rotated twice clockwise by hand and it moved like a normal engine would. I had my wife watch the timing belt pulleys from above and she didn't notice any slippage. I did notice that it seemed like the belt was being peeled up by a misalignment on one of the pulleys shown in the below picture:



Then we set the flywheel at TDC like this. The bottom of the picture is towards the front of the car:



The hope and pray marks on the camshaft looked like this:



The hope and pray marks on the injection pump looked similar:



The actual timing pin hole on the injection pump seems to confirm the hope and pray marks and is just barely out of the window as well. These are the same picture, I added the color to show what I'm seeing from them:



I'll keep looking at some other things now.
 

MaverickH1

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2002 Jetta TDI
Looking at the document posted earlier, it seems to say that the injection pump timing pin hole should be at the 1 o'clock position here. Mine is more like the 7 o'clock position.

It's hard to get the angle right to show a true clock face position where 12 o'clock is vertical. So in this picture the yellow line is the 12 to 6 vertical line, and the blue line is where it seems like the pin hole is 180 degrees opposed on the 1 to 7 o'clock line.

Not sure if this is normal or if thing is 180 degrees out of time.

 

Zak99b5

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2003 Jetta TDI
Fuel pump (and cam) rotates at half crankshaft speed. So your flywheel mark will line up at TDC (compression stroke) AND at the top of the exhaust stroke.

Turn crank one more full rotation.
 

MaverickH1

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Roanoke, VA
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2002 Jetta TDI
Fuel pump (and cam) rotates at half crankshaft speed. So your flywheel mark will line up at TDC (compression stroke) AND at the top of the exhaust stroke.

Turn crank one more full rotation.
I figured it would be something like that. Rotated just now. All hope and pray marks don't align. The IP hole looks off by a tooth:

 

Vince Waldon

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Apr 25, 2009
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Edmonton AB Canada
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2001 ALH Jetta, 2003 ALH Wagon, 2005 BEW Wagon
Yup, probably a good idea to just reset the timing from scratch... then you have at least eliminated one big possibility.

Timing belt PDF is linked in my sig, probably the best step-by-step out there.
 

MaverickH1

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Roanoke, VA
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2002 Jetta TDI
Been forever since I messed with this. But tearing into a timing belt change on it now.

Does this look like TDC on the cam? I onky saw reference to the lobes being "up". These are barely pointing up.



Cam tool is locked in on the other side. Flex plate on the AT is lines up as it should be.

Hope and pray marks on the cam sprocket look like this, a full 180 out of alignment.



At the moment it looks like the fuel injection timing is the only thing that slipped.
 
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