'01 1.9L Golf TDI 124,000 - Seized Motor??

[sesposito59]

New to the TDI scene and need some help. While driving, my Mom's Golf simply "Died-Out". Tried to jump, no luck. Engine would not turn, smoke from battery cable to starter was a good sign that the starter was toast or the engine refused to turn. Had it towed.

Mechanic got to looking at it and it looks like the engine is locked up. Could not turn the crank etc. with breaker bar.

Removed, in the following order:

1. Injectors (to relieve any vapor).
2. Starter. Incase it was hung out there on the flywheel.
3. Timing belt as a last resort to eliminate the top half of the engine causing the problem,. still could not turn the engine by hand.

Oil is synthetic, last changed 2,000 miles ago. Oil looks good - no metal shavings etc., level is good.

Is it possible that the Automatic Trans can cause the crank not to turn. I would expect something a bit more catastrophic, than the car simply stalling if the engine spun a bearing or the trans locked up. I hear about these cars running forever, especially rave reviews on these engines.

Any advise is greatly appreciated.

Sal

 

[jcrews]

I don't think a torque converter can lock up physically unless you fill it with something solid.

After removing the timing belt, the only way I could re-index the motor would be with the camshaft removed. You can probably do it without removing the shaft, but that's the easiest way and guarantees no valve collisions.

It sounds like your starting point is to remove the oil sump and peek at the bottom end. There are no stripped teeth on the timing belt and it had tension on it, correct?

Is there anything else we should know?

oil pressure alarm?
wvo?

 

[2004STARWARSTDI]

seized engine

When was timing belt replaced? Timing belt could have jumped teeth resulting in valves meeting pistons!

 

[sesposito59]

I don't think a torque converter can lock up physically unless you fill it with something solid.

After removing the timing belt, the only way I could re-index the motor would be with the camshaft removed. You can probably do it without removing the shaft, but that's the easiest way and guarantees no valve collisions.

It sounds like your starting point is to remove the oil sump and peek at the bottom end. There are no stripped teeth on the timing belt and it had tension on it, correct?

Is there anything else we should know?

oil pressure alarm?
wvo?

Thanks for the expedient reply(s) you guys. The mechanic did not indicate anything out of the norm with the belt. Then again, I don't believe he's as well versed in the ins-and-outs of the VW TDI. I'll check Monday.

I decided to not have him drop the oilpan since it appears all is lost. Why spend any more that I need to on this. Shame is the car is in excellent shape.

 

[jcrews]

The fact that he took the belt off for no good reason is pretty scary.

It sounds like an oil starvation death but the only way to tell is to look at the oil pump and see if the chain broke.

The good news is you can get a used motor from a wreck fairly inexpensively (if it is trashed), and your comprehensive insurance might help.

 

[MOGolf]

These are interference engines. You won't be able to turn the bottom half of the engine without hitting the valves. Any attempt to force past that causes valvetrain damage. It should be movable in reverse direction slowly up to the point of touching the valves again. That would indicate if it seized at the bottom end.

You seem to be giving up awfully quick. The car needs to be towed to someone who does know what they're doing with a TDI engine. JasonTDI in Madison, WI, has several customers from northern IL.

Cheapest towing method is probably a rental truck and tow dolly for a day, unless you have friends that can help out.

 

[otm646]

Agreed. Get a Guru.

You will get straight answers and a goodnights sleep.

 

[Dodoma]

As one estimed member mentioned, it could be oil starvation that seized the engine. Now that the belt is off, remove the head and see if crank can be rotated. If not, remove the transmission and see if crank can be turned in case the trans is causing the problem or you may do this before removing the head. Finally remove the short block, turn it upside down, remove oil pan, and then have the short block rebuild. Remove crank, pistons, etc. Take to machine shop where the bores will be deglazed, bore aligned, connecting rod balanced, and crank polished. The shop will provide the matching crank bearings. Assembling is easy with the guidance provided in Bently manual. After that, put the short block back, ditto with trans. Now you may have head pressure tested and rebuild. The short block rebuilding would cost between $225 and $325. The same for head. Install the head using correct thickness head gasket. Mount belt, time it, and start the car after replacing the toasted starter. You should then be on the road. Removing engine involves ability to life weights between 50 and 75 pounds. Put front wheels on ramp so that there is ample ground clearance to remove the trans from bottom. With head removed from above, you should be able to remove the short block from the bottom (after removing the driveshafts), using stack of newspapers to carry the weight and then thinning the stack gradually to lower the block to ground level and then sliding out. A cherry picker would be very helpful. I have one and you may borrow free if you are in CA. You may use existing headbolts or use Raceware studs. My prayers for your success in this endevor and blessing. Take your time to this work.

 

[sesposito59]

I don't think a torque converter can lock up physically unless you fill it with something solid.

After removing the timing belt, the only way I could re-index the motor would be with the camshaft removed. You can probably do it without removing the shaft, but that's the easiest way and guarantees no valve collisions.

It sounds like your starting point is to remove the oil sump and peek at the bottom end. There are no stripped teeth on the timing belt and it had tension on it, correct?

Is there anything else we should know?

oil pressure alarm?
wvo?

No Oil pressure alarm. What is WVO?

 

[sesposito59]

I agree it sounds like I'm throwing the towel in way too early - nothing could be further from the truth. Sorry for the negative vibes.

From what I could tell it looks like $5k minimum to get all this work done etc. An engine from questionable source, ie. local boneyards etc. - are coming in at $3,000 for a 100,000 mile motor. Seems really high in my mind. Thoughts pls?

If I went the boneyard route, I would still need a teardown to check-it-out/dial it in to CMA. That being the case, logic would suggest why not just tear down the existing engine per Dodoma? At least I have a "known quantity" to deal with, right?

Any idea how many labor hours to pull an engine? One mechanic is quoting me 15 hours to remove/replace. Seems a bit on the high side to me. Sounds like a LOT of T&E (Trial & Error) involved here.

I saw some remanufactured engines online for $5500! 3-year warranty. That shell-shocked me to say the least - hence the negative vibes from me. Add in labor cost from above ($1,500 - $2,500) - I may as well buy another used car.

So now I turn to you guys for the "real-world, no-bias, no-bull" advice - which iI truly appreciate. THANKS! I needed that.

My options are: Pay 7-8k for another used car, or fund this project to get this one going again - ("known quantity" theory.

Question: Is an exploded diagram of this engine/drivetrain available online? It sounds like the oil pump is chain-driven. Is this correct? Is the tranny's tourque converter direct-coupled to the crankshaft - like my 67 Buick or via chain etc.?

Environmental: This is my mom's car, in Chicago area, and she really uses it to putz around to do errands. I was always concerned that it's not fully warming up -, especially in the sub-zero winters - which I know is not good for any vehicle. Do you guys feel this could cause premature catastrophic failure? She's only put 23,000 miles on it in the two years she's had it. I use synthetic oil to hopefully deal with the temp extremes of the Chicago winters/summers. Oil has been changed regularly 3-5,000 miles.

Re Gurus: I had my Previous '03 TDI Jetta, and Both Volvo's serviced by a local European shop called Eurocare. It definitely sounds like it's time to get a "real" shop to look at it as you guys suggest. Before I use them for a rebuild, I need to put some feelers out there. A tune-up is one thing.....a masterful engine rebuild quite another. Anyone from the Chgo area have any experience with them?

Finally, I found an '03 TDI Jetta, single owner, with minor body damage, CLEAN with 453,000 miles on it for around $3k. Being a TDI would the mileage of that magnitude scare you TDI gurus off? What would you immediately check on this vehicle? From my pane of glass - I just had one fail at 124k. On the other hand for all I know mom could have been driving around with an oil light on?

Thank you all for "Steering" me in the right direction. My apologies for rambling on.

Sal

 

[jcrews]

You should find out why it's jammed before going engine shopping. Talk to Jason or do some exploration yourself if you have time and tools. I would start by looking at the camshaft, removing it, and checking the lifters. If anything went wrong with the engine and it had oil pressure the valve train is the first to go.

 

[MIA]

I had something similar happen to me several years ago, it turned out Relay 109 acted up and locked my auto tranny in gear. However there was a code thrown saying something was up with the transmission, if the code was cleared the car would start. After a little while running the car would lock up again. Overall my car spent a week in the shop and just needed a $14 part and about 15 minutes in labor.

 

[sesposito59]

You should find out why it's jammed before going engine shopping. Talk to Jason or do some exploration yourself if you have time and tools. I would start by looking at the camshaft, removing it, and checking the lifters. If anything went wrong with the engine and it had oil pressure the valve train is the first to go.

Thanks!. This is great info.

Sal

 

[sesposito59]

I had something similar happen to me several years ago, it turned out Relay 109 acted up and locked my auto tranny in gear. However there was a code thrown saying something was up with the transmission, if the code was cleared the car would start. After a little while running the car would lock up again. Overall my car spent a week in the shop and just needed a $14 part and about 15 minutes in labor.

Wouldn't that be a kick! A stuck relay!! This stopped it from turning over??

 

[MIA]

Wouldn't that be a kick! A stuck relay!! This stopped it from turning over??

Yep, still have a perfectly good ECU from when the mechanic thought that was what was wrong with it. Seems the silly relay causes manuals to die and autos to stop turning over. I could hear the starter trying to turn the engine over, but the engine was locked in place. Again, there were a couple auto transmission related codes thrown, but I can't remember if the CEL was turned on or not.

 

[2004STARWARSTDI]

Oil pump chain

The fact that he took the belt off for no good reason is pretty scary.

It sounds like an oil starvation death but the only way to tell is to look at the oil pump and see if the chain broke. .

Believe the chain is on a passat not a golf 1.9.

 

[MOGolf]

Believe the chain is on a passat not a golf 1.9.

A chain is used to directly drive the oil pump on an ALH engine.

 

[Nocky]

I am surprised that no one has told you to get rid of it. This forum is known for bashing the dreaded automatic transmission.

 

[Franko6]

I've had a couple of engines that locked up at TDC on the cylinder head.

Loosen all the camshaft caps. Pull the cam. Inspect the cam followers. If none of them are crunched, then dig a bit deeper. Pull the followers. If all the valve stems are showing and up where they should be, and it still won't turn, pull the pan. At that point, thrown oil pump chain, rods, mains, blown piston... You can see all of that from there.

You should be able to see bad cylinders or a busted oil pump chain. If that's ok, then loosen #1 rod and main caps. You will probably find your problem.

I've never had a auto tranny lock up at the crank.. who knows... there's always a first time.

 

[JASONP]

Oil pump chain can be seen on the lower left hand side

 

[Growler]

whats the story behind that picture?

someone run over a ladder on the freeway or what?

 

[JASONP]

No I borrowed a pic from another post her to show the chain,car was a write off

 

[sesposito59]

No I borrowed a pic from another post her to show the chain,car was a write off

Well, dropped the oilpan today and there it was.....rod and wrist-pin material in the bottom of the pan from the number 3 cylinder everywhere. Rod even went thru the block when it disintegrated. Mechanic says he's seen this level of catastrophic damage occur when a cylinder "hydro-locked" under load and the dynamic forces at play being tremendous can easily explain this. In any case, the autopsy reveals the rod and wristpin were torn from the underside of the number 3 piston.

Now I have a 4-door '01 golf in excellent shape, that I'll soon be parting out to cut my losses. Is there a forum here that deals specifically with parting these baby's out?

Do you think the crank is now garbage? My thoughts are that it took the brunt of the explosion, however being much meatier than a con-rod, the rod was 1st to go. Does a failure of this magnitude usually render a crank useless or is it possible to re-use it?

Thank you all for your support and wisdom. Definitely a learning experience.

Sal

 

[jcrews]

Look at the Classifieds/Private TDI items for sale forum. Just start a thread called "Parting out: 2001 Golf TDI Auto" or something like it.

Option 2: You could wait for the right deal to come along and do the reverse part-out. Get a healthy engine from a crashed car for a reasonable price.

But then there's the automatic transaxle, and it will sooner or later blow up, requiring a new manual or auto box.

Good luck, and don't forget to call up the insurance policy if you have comprehensive non-collision coverage.

 

[Nocky]

sesposito59 get a hold of kleinergti1 he is always buying cars and he is not to far away.