P1561 N149 Control deviation with light misfires.

[Randomhomelesstdibeetlegu]

I have a reman Bosch 11mm pump. It throws this code intermittently and then static.

No limits reached codes but I am sort of stumped on this one.

Seems to do it more when warm or hot out. Timing is spot on physically and vag-com between blue and green lines more toward the green.

IQ is hammered to 4-5 and adaptation channeled to 6-7 at idle. Either way did not make a difference.

Has DLC764 nozzles done by DBW. Has had much wiring redone........

I can find very little info on this or how the QA is controlled and what deviation would do this.

I'm close to probably taking the QA off and inspecting it as I found a thread where others had issues with bad solder joints on reman pumps and new pumps or perhaps there's junk in it.

Now prior to the reman 11mm it threw the same code BUT it would hit the upper and lower limits.



Any ideas where to start?

 

[Randomhomelesstdibeetlegu]

The car will run perfect at times and it seems to do this when at light throttle light load cruising to just sustain speed and rpm.

Around 2700-3000 rpm. Then goes away. Sometimes falls flat on its face no throttle response until revs drop below 2k, other times it pulls through the light misfires and runs fine.

Perplexed

 

[Randomhomelesstdibeetlegu]

Also to add I did remove the case pressure plug and it had dropped the spring retainer halfway. I tapped it flush and it made the issue a little better.

Cat 2 micron filter and a lift pump installed so air in lines is nil. That was fixed long ago.

 

[burpod]

quantity adjuster limit reached code? take a log of 001 (from cold, to hot + driving it and then hot idle back in the driveway) and see if you can get it to happen during the log. are all engine adapations (like channels 00-006 or so) the default value of 32768? i would set them to all default value if they aren't.

also, take an 011 + 001 log of another test-run or trip to grocery store. if you can, click the "marker" button when strange behavior happens so that one can see in the log where exactly that was.

are those nozzles .215 hole size?

 

[Randomhomelesstdibeetlegu]

quantity adjuster limit reached code? take a log of 001 (from cold, to hot + driving it and then hot idle back in the driveway) and see if you can get it to happen during the log. are all engine adapations (like channels 00-006 or so) the default value of 32768? i would set them to all default value if they aren't.

also, take an 011 + 001 log of another test-run or trip to grocery store. if you can, click the "marker" button when strange behavior happens so that one can see in the log where exactly that was.

are those nozzles .215 hole size?

.230 DLC764

Not any quantity adjuster limit reached codes. Just P1561 Control deviation. Which seems to be a mystery.

 

[Randomhomelesstdibeetlegu]

I think since I do not have vag com I am going to backprobe the pump connector with a scope and watch the QA happenings.

This is annoying at best, at worst turbo blowing and cut out when merging or energy maneuver. Needs to be ironed out.

 

[burpod]

You should really just bite the bullet and buy vcds it will save you a lot of time and will be necessary to get the tune right

 

[Randomhomelesstdibeetlegu]

You should really just bite the bullet and buy vcds it will save you a lot of time and will be necessary to get the tune right

Have to support the kids while finding work. It's literally like that my man. Hence I drive a busted ragged out ALH.

It isn't that I could. Literally can't. I get the feeling it's a dirty QA or bad solder joints.

Possibly even bad wiring to and from the QA for signal. I have alternator voltage everywhere after the resurrection of this junk beetle. Separate dual 109 relays triggered off factory ECU wire each with 10 gauge to the fuse panel out and inline fuses.

You'd be amazed how much better it ran after reducing load on the 109 relay and getting off most of the factory wiring.

Obvious place to start is QA housing.

Vag com would be great to log and monitor pump voltages and log what you said to above.

I don't know if folks still rent them but I put out a feeler local to do so.

 

[burpod]

it would be worth it to look at the QA for sure. i've never split 109, but i have done quite a bit of my own re-wiring, there's definite improvement to be made over factory. i thought the X load-reduction relay is what really supplies power to most of the high draw electronics tho and 109 was really only for the ecu. i have my seat heaters, fogs, headlights, rad fans etc all wired such that they are relayed and not getting actual power through the load reduction relay, thus reducing a lot of current going through that one relay.

 

[BobnOH]

I'd suspect it's just wires, just a guess. No idea what happens with fueling when folks install an intake pump on a VE engine.
Should we be questioning the quality of the new pump remanufacture? Who did it and where did it come from.
I believe the IQ is the most over diagnosed thing on these cars. Books says 2.2 - 9.0 mg/stroke, once the car is running the ECU takes over and gets what it needs. It does seem to affect the motor at low fuel request, like idle. You could try setting it back to like 3, remove the adaptation, but I doubt that would make any difference.

 

[Randomhomelesstdibeetlegu]

I'd suspect it's just wires, just a guess. No idea what happens with fueling when folks install an intake pump on a VE engine.
Should we be questioning the quality of the new pump remanufacture? Who did it and where did it come from.
I believe the IQ is the most over diagnosed thing on these cars. Books says 2.2 - 9.0 mg/stroke, once the car is running the ECU takes over and gets what it needs. It does seem to affect the motor at low fuel request, like idle. You could try setting it back to like 3, remove the adaptation, but I doubt that would make any difference.

It's an actual Bosch reman. QA cover came off whistle clean and arm moves like butter. When key on it homes and moves good as it should. Didn't fully remove QA.


Very free to rotate itself.

I generated an upper limit code by hand and piston code by hand.

Whistle clean inside as a reman pump should be.

 

[BobnOH]

I would assume the pump is (was?) good. Could be wires, no fun to troubleshoot. most of the wires from the pump to the ECU run in a bundle near the startr and under the battery tray.

 

[Randomhomelesstdibeetlegu]

I would assume the pump is (was?) good. Could be wires, no fun to troubleshoot. most of the wires from the pump to the ECU run in a bundle near the startr and under the battery tray.

I suspect wiring also. This was the only pump related code left after the dying leaking 10mm was removed. The old pump had negative and positive deviation max codes. Now only P1561 and light misfires. When it runs right it moves out feels very healthy. I actually am quite shocked at how strong it is when boost and fueling are right. My buddy who rode in it prior to porting said it was noticable even when running off and very noticeable when it was fueling and boosting right.

Once this is ironed out it should be enjoyable.

Later tonight I suppose or tomorrow night I'll get down and dirty with the QA wiring. I have a MKIV Bentley so I can figure out the pump harness wires and trace back to ECU.

Worse case I'll run new in parallel as needed

 

[BobnOH]

I had similar issue back in like 2005. I consider an outlier, so I hesitate to suggest. After a really long time trying to fix it, I unwrapped the wire bundle under the battery. Found #3 wire had a scallop in the insulation, from the factory. Reattached it all was good. The puzzling part is the wire would pass continuity test but was unable to carry enough amps to work consistently.
I do notice the code you list is not in the Ross Tech wiki, guessing you read it with some other scanner. Do hope it's at least close to the actual code.

 

[Randomhomelesstdibeetlegu]

I had similar issue back in like 2005. I consider an outlier, so I hesitate to suggest. After a really long time trying to fix it, I unwrapped the wire bundle under the battery. Found #3 wire had a scallop in the insulation, from the factory. Reattached it all was good. The puzzling part is the wire would pass continuity test but was unable to carry enough amps to work consistently.
I do notice the code you list is not in the Ross Tech wiki, guessing you read it with some other scanner. Do hope it's at least close to the actual code.

Vag com 17969 aka P1561. Quantity adjuster control deviation. Ross tech doesn't have it listed even but it does exist.

I ran across your post about that a while ago. This seems to act up 2700-3200. My brain is eating itself but I'm thinking more RPM more amps/current to move the QA?

It looks as if it's serious wire inspection time.

 

[Randomhomelesstdibeetlegu]

Good news and bad news.

Good news is it does the exact same thing with the stock ECU. Bad news is it does the exact same thing.

It did it with the old pump which also had lower and upper limits deviation codes numerically lower and above by one (17979 17968).

So wiring is next! Trying to get to it today because it's spoiling the driving experience and merging wt times can be dangerous when it falls flat on its face. Same with low very light load cruising.

I may overlay a couple wires if it all appears ok. That's what I had to do with the 109 relay to get good voltage and split the load of ancient undersized beetle wiring.

 

[Randomhomelesstdibeetlegu]

 

[Randomhomelesstdibeetlegu]

I'll double check pump timing but it was a bit below the green line last week or week before.

 

[Randomhomelesstdibeetlegu]

Pump timing 1/3rd of the way below green line.

So what is the mod displacement sensor voltage range? I have logs of it hitting 3-5v..... Or is that due to a tune and increased pump voltage? Marked during misfire events and stuttering events.


Log #584621

block 001 alone

Log #584623

001 011 004

Log #584620

 

[Randomhomelesstdibeetlegu]

Injector balance numbers are very normal from idle to 2000.

 

[Randomhomelesstdibeetlegu]

Flushed out the pump harness with cleaner, blew out the old dielectric grease and gunk with air. Verified nice right tight pins. Added a drop or two of stabilant 22 to each pin. Connected it up. Did the same to the MAF That had a new harness pigtail soldered in by me last year.

 

[Randomhomelesstdibeetlegu]

How much is an allowed IQ movement at idle? The idle is fairly rock steady. Like bad company in the 70's.

The IQ moves around 1-1.2 or so at idle. Should it be steady and solid at a number?

Say 5-6.2 at idle. I've searched and can't find a clear answer on that.

 

[wonneber]

I had similar issue back in like 2005. I consider an outlier, so I hesitate to suggest. After a really long time trying to fix it, I unwrapped the wire bundle under the battery. Found #3 wire had a scallop in the insulation, from the factory. Reattached it all was good. The puzzling part is the wire would pass continuity test but was unable to carry enough amps to work consistently.
I do notice the code you list is not in the Ross Tech wiki, guessing you read it with some other scanner. Do hope it's at least close to the actual code.

The tinsel wires VW uses are not heavy enough to pass current, only signal.

 

[Randomhomelesstdibeetlegu]

The tinsel wires VW uses are not heavy enough to pass current, only signal.

I've been putting off this wiring extravaganza because of gigs to pay bills and life. I limp it around shifting at 2k occasionally opening the VNT Vanes or trying just to avoid soot buildup.

I'm sure it's probably VW 22 gauge tinsel that if you look at it wrong it breaks internally. But by the pump it's a decent looking size.

What gets me is the lack of solid knowledge about the QA. LOADS of tech talk. Haven't found much common sense.

From what I gather the principal is similar to the throttle pedal but using AC voltage signals.

QA gets a voltage. Makes rotation magic with the invisible magic field. Modulating magical junk sensor returns a signal to say yeah it's doing that. Possibly the same voltage. Possibly not. Vag com says it has a range yet I can log it going far outside. No clear answer if that's normal when tuned or not.

Would that be the inner and outer rings of the QA assembly?

I've Seen how the QA shaft can misalign and drag on the bore when it hits a certain spot. I saw a video of that. That might explain it but it does sweep clean and snap back. Moves super freely. But would be a hair sticky under load.

I guess I should be amazed and grateful this **** heap runs given how badly built it was.

 

[Randomhomelesstdibeetlegu]

It runs better with an IQ of 3 moving to 3.2-4 or so.

Once this is all sorted I can't wait to bump the timing higher, and.....


COOL THIS DAMN FUEL DOWN.

11MM and a lift pump makes it hot. This thing won't be so pokey once all that is sorted.

 

[burpod]

yes, it does get much hotter. although, i think 50C is probably not too hot, from what i've read, 100-120F is a good temp for optimal diesel fuel combustion.

i got one of these 4pass coolers (16" wide):

Amazon.com: EVIL ENERGY 4 Pass Tube and Fin Transmission Cooler Kit Bundle with 5/16 Inch ID NBR Fuel Hose 10 Feet Black : Automotive

Buy EVIL ENERGY 4 Pass Tube and Fin Transmission Cooler Kit Bundle with 5/16 Inch ID NBR Fuel Hose 10 Feet Black: Coolers - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases

www.amazon.com

i also got a standard motor products cheap fuel selector valve for 5/16 barbs:

https://www.amazon.com/Standard-Motor-Products-FV1T-Selector/dp/B005ETOVZM

one day i'd like to find a good thermo-switch that will plug into my standayne fm100 fuel filter head so it can have it automatically switch the fuel to go to cooler if fuel temps get to say 40-45C.

i the PD engines, fuel gets really hot. in the summer fuel temps get up to 80-85C even with the factory fuel cooler, which i question how effective that is...

 

[Randomhomelesstdibeetlegu]

New ECU with same tune provided less Flux in IQ and timing at idle and under load.

As usual more than one issue. Next is running new QA wire and MPDS wiring possibly N108 wiring as well to ensure it's as good as it can get.

Runs great with an IQ OF 2.2-2.6 at idle and even less control deviation yet still happens.

So two bad ECU third is the charm.

 

[BobnOH]

So two bad ECU third is the charm.

What are the odds? ECUs rarely fail, so even used units would do better than 1 in 3.
Once the car is running and under acceleration the ECU raises the IQ, a bunch. Not a popular opinion, but I believe those small adjustments only affect idle/low throttle. The spec says like 2-9. Adaptation may modify that behavior, IDK.

 

[Randomhomelesstdibeetlegu]

What are the odds? ECUs rarely fail, so even used units would do better than 1 in 3.
Once the car is running and under acceleration the ECU raises the IQ, a bunch. Not a popular opinion, but I believe those small adjustments only affect idle/low throttle. The spec says like 2-9. Adaptation may modify that behavior, IDK.

Disagree. Both my other ECU had HORRID solder joints. The third one is best of the bunch and common failure points look spectacular with a good amount of solder.

Bosch means junk in German.

 

[Randomhomelesstdibeetlegu]

I put the VCDS on a family members ALH with 330k and it had no IQ movement or timing movement at idle. Rock solid.

So I did this to prepare:









Six 20 gauge hookup wires run parallel to ECU wiring so they can be connected at the pump harness.