ECU tuning options for AFB 2.5L V6 w/MSA15 ECU

[d24tdi]

I recently acquired a 1999 2.5L V6 TDI, engine code AFB, that I will be using for a swap into my 2001 Audi Allroad 6-speed.

One of the first nuts I know I will need to crack with this swap is getting the ECU to play well in the recepient car, and I will need help from a tuner to do that. Mine is an early style engine that has the old style three-connector MSA15 ECU, not EDC15, so tuning via the DLC port is not an option. I haven't cracked the case open yet to see if it's already socketed, seems like from what I am reading some of these are and others are not.

In either case, I will at minimum need a tuner to help with software, and possibly may also need it socketed if it is not already. My goals are very mild -- stock output is all I want -- but I will of course need the immo eliminated, and since this engine originally lived in front of an automatic and is bolting to a standard in this swap I will need it set up for that also. While we're working with it I may want to do a few other minor changes (EGR, etc) but I do not plan any major changes to the maps.

I left a message for Jeff with RocketChip but have not been able to get a call back from him. I like how his tunes run so he would be my first choice if I can get hold of him. Has anyone else had success working with other tuners on oddball engines like this? I know there are many with good reputations (TDTuning, Malone, Kerma, etc) but don't know how well their efforts have worked out when straying from the bread and butter 1.9, 2.0, 3.0 motors that were sold in US.

Thanks in advance for any experience/referrals.

 

[juliywann]

I'm really not trying to discourage you, but I really doubt you're going to find any tuning software that's even decent for free or cheap. Also, IMO there's not really a way to get into just a small bit of tuning, at least safely. The closest you'll probably get to that is like a JET programmer if they make one for Tutuapp 9Apps Showbox your car, and those are questionable at best.

 

[diffas]

Well you sure need capable electric technician who can solder the slots for the chip and same goes to soldering the immo chip off.
I think it also needs to be read and modified and solder back in. Quite video here about

 

[d24tdi]

Thanks for the replies.

A couple of members reached out to me helpfully by PM with ideas for options. I'll be back in the location where this project is sitting later this month and plan to look into those further.

I really doubt you're going to find any tuning software that's even decent for free or cheap.

Sorry if my post was not clear. I certainly do not expect to accomplish this for free or cheap, I'm planning to pay to have it done. My only concern is making sure it's done by someone who has expertise with the MSA15 platform this engine uses. Most of the US-based tuners (understandably) have only dealt with the EDC15 and EDC16 software used in the US-market TDI cars and have been uninterested in experimenting with this different software. I'm not looking to remap it, plan to stick with stock engine tune maps, only want immo delete and manual trans coding. But still, that needs to be done correctly.

@diffas thanks for the video, that was helpful. Seems like all of these steps are certainly doable, just need to find someone who can.

I know my other option is swapping over a complete EDC15+ harness, IP, and ECU from a later AKN or AKE motor, perhaps one out of a factory manual car. Seems there is more comfort dealing with EDC15 in N America. That's a lot of effort and cost though.

 

[adamss24]

I am surprised you don’t want the AFB engine modified, the allroad is a heavy barge and 150bhp will move it from standstill on a factory tune…but it’s going to be boring !
On the old msa Ecu the best upgrade apart from socketing the Ecu is to get a decent tuning box: Steinbauer, PSI Motorsport or a few more. They work by piggybacking the Ecu signals from pump and modify them accordingly. If the turbo can keep up with the demand then it will make it brisk enough to move the old barge!

 

[tdi_my live]

Well then call both control unit numbers.
Then we can see how complicated it really is.

 

[d24tdi]

I am surprised you don’t want the AFB engine modified, the allroad is a heavy barge and 150bhp will move it from standstill on a factory tune…but it’s going to be boring !
On the old msa Ecu the best upgrade apart from socketing the Ecu is to get a decent tuning box: Steinbauer, PSI Motorsport or a few more. They work by piggybacking the Ecu signals from pump and modify them accordingly. If the turbo can keep up with the demand then it will make it brisk enough to move the old barge!

Thanks for the advice, good to know there are options. "Boring" is exactly what I want. This car will be used in the mountains of the western US (altitude up to 12,000 ft) fully loaded, with a loaded roof rack, and towing, on the hottest days of summer. May often be a gross combination weight of 8000-9000 lbs including the fully loaded car plus trailer, operating in 100-120F ambient temperatures with the A/C on and climbing long uphill grades with foot to the floor sometimes for 20-30 minutes at a time. In other words extremely demanding use and frequent full load sustained operation. Getting quick starts from standstill are no concern, my focus is making sure the engine can survive the continuous hard work, so that is why I am not interested in "upgrade" tunes. It also needs to run as cleanly and quietly as possible, so big exhaust, etc is not an option. If anything I may look at getting it remapped with a downrate to ~100hp depending on how EGT and cooling performance go on the stock tune. I want to end up with a car that I can let someone else other than drive in those conditions, not something where you have to carefully watch the gauges to avoid burning the motor down. Detuning, as any OEM does for use of an engine in a heavy or commercial application, may be the only way to do that but we'll see.

VW's factory rating for the 140hp Audi AEL 2.5tdi engine when using those engines in ACV Transporter trim is down at 102hp so my guess is that would be the right ballpark peak HP for the heavy use this engine will see. Maybe 110hp. Same deal with a Cummins or Powerstroke, an engine that is sold with a 300hp rating in a pickup is rated at 175hp when installed in a medium duty cab chassis where they will actually see real work. In short I am basically expecting even the stock 150hp AFB tune to be a possible recipe for getting into the danger zone when working hard.

Bottom line though, I want to get it running and dead reliable on stock maps before considering any changes. Again my only goal at this time is dealing with the immo and getting it to play with the 6spd trans.

From all the good advice I have gotten so far (thank you!) on this thread and by PM, I think the first steps when I begin this project will be to just get the motor bolted into the car and plugged in, and see if it'll start. Maybe I'll get lucky, and maybe too, this ECU will be soft-codable in VCDS to switch from auto to manual like you can do with an ALH etc. I agree with and appreciate the suggestions to not overthink it trying to solve problems in advance that may not actually exist once it's all plugged in. Maybe it will just work.

Well then call both control unit numbers.
Then we can see how complicated it really is.

Thanks. Will do when I get back home to where the engine is sitting. What are both control units? Is there something other than the ECM that would give valuable info? I do not have a TCM with it, if that's the other one you are referring to.

 

[d24tdi]

I realize I posted this thread in the "TDI Power Enhancements" section so perhaps that's the reason my lack of interest in any power enhancement is a continual stumbling block in discussions about this swap, LOL! Sorry for any confusion. I just figured this was the best area to seek ECU tuning expertise, even though a power increase is not what I am looking for.

 

[adamss24]

If you’re thinking of working hard the engine sometimes de-tuning the engine is not the best approach but going for the highest strung/latest engine iteration with the max power output that the factory done and add a good 10-20% on top of that ! Basically I would go for a BDG/BDH/BAU base engine they fitted in the allroad, comes with stronger crank, lower compression pistons, a fuel cooler and I would add early bolt on bits from the allroad 2000/2001- solid intercooler and delimited AKE pump and injectors. This would be the most reliable setup along with a low range gearbox with the extra multiplying gear for off-road use !
What these cars lack is proper oil coolers, fitting a remote oil cooler somewhere in front of the radiator pack and a thermostatically controlled oil sandwich plate is mandatory especially when worked hard.
Make sure your AFB engine cams and followers are in good condition, it’s not uncommon for these to work with dropped cam followers thus lacking power. Checking is a pain in the proverbial as the cam covers need removing which is a pain in itself due to the way injectors come trough ! The v6 is not particularly hard to work on once you knowit but can be challenging if not versed enough !
I hope yours is in good nick otherwise a cam kit with lifters/followers and thrust pads along with a cam belt/water pump kit is going to set you back a good few hundred euros ! Also take sump cover off and inspect the oil pump drive sprocket and chain, make sure it’s not slack otherwise you’re in for a lot of work to replace the chain ! Lack of lubrication is what eats the cams and followers ! Best to look for later B** series cylinders heads as they are much more reliable but the hollow cams can drop valves in some instances especially if they spun on the shafts…

 

[tdi_my live]

It is not correct to only draw conclusions about the performance from the displacement and to see an ACV as a reference. The ACV has a very different transmission and clutch.
In addition, there are maps that can be programmed in such a way that at certain intake temperatures, the performance, i.e. the injection quantity and boost pressure, are automatically reduced and the engine is also protected. Without brutally cutting performance first.

The ECU numbers are required from the donor with the engine and the new car in which the engine is to be installed.