6 speed options for B5.5 4motion tdi conversions

50harleyrider

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I've seen some B5.5 4motion tdi conversions using Euro tdi 5sp trannys. Would it be possible to start with a B5.5 4motion car and use a C5 quattro 2.7t 6sp tranny in it? Or perhaps a 2.0 B7 quattro 6sp tranny although it's probably geared shorter? There are quiet a few donor quattro cars available in the states now is why I ask.
 
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86turbodsl

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Should be able to use any Audi A4/A6 manual transmission in that car, assuming you are adding an equivalent ratio rear axle. I have no experience with B5.5 chassis so i don't know what rear axle setup will fit that car. I'm assuming there are floor pan differences but i don't know that for sure.
 

V70R

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If you wanted to go 01E from a C5 A6, you‘d need all the swap stuff along with a W8 manual driveshaft. The gearing on US 01E transmissions doesnt really suit a diesel, and the 6th gear cruising RPM’s are pretty high at anything over 65-70mph.

02X is possible yes. There are no provisions for side trans mounts (think 01A or 01E for example) on an 01X or 02X, so you have to run a crossmember for this conversion. This does not require a custom driveshaft- the 5HP19 is the exact same length as an 02X. Just need the crossmember and a Dakota Digital VSS setup along with your standard swap parts.

Here are the crossmembers for this conversion we’ve made for about 4 years now, and to date I think theres been over 20 conversions done. Looks a little something like this-

 

50harleyrider

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Would the b5.5 W8 6sp also be high cruising RPM for the bhw conversion? Something close to 5th in my Euro FHN 5sp would be acceptable.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
The W8 6sp spins the engine faster at 80 than the stock ZF autobox does behind the BHW.

VAG really didn't start with tall gearing on gassers until recently, and those are all automatics (8sp) now.
 

50harleyrider

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What about the gearing in the 6sp 01E found behind the 2.7t in the 2000-2005 C5 quattros? For sure a bullit proof tranny but if Oilhammers' VAG observation is all encompassing, would probably be geared short too in 6th? Those C5's are nice big sedans.
 

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01A is also an option, as equipped in my B5 Quattro, for a not heavily power-modded build. Except for the W8, all the stock North American manual-transmission 4-Motion B5.5 (albeit gassers and only 5-speeds) are 01A.
 

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0A3 is the most recent Audi quattro manual transmission family that will still fit the B5. Starting from B8 onwards, the front axle moves forward relative to the engine flywheel position. Here's a BOM for a conversion starting from an automatic C5 Allroad 4.2 V8 and B5, respectively:
https://jhmotorsports.com/catalog/product/view/id/3971
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
It's funny, the 2011-2015 NCS Jetta S, that got the "old" 115hp 2.0L SOHC engine brought back from the dead got bolted to two different gearboxes than it was bolted to before: no more 02J 5sp manual, it gets the smaller, cheaper 0A4... and no more 01M 4sp slushbox, it gets the [vastly superior] 09G (Aisin) 6sp slushbox. However, despite being in a lighter car, they feel pretty sluggish around town. Then I realized that even those got much, much taller gearing. And for the first time in ever, even the 2.slo can hold its own on the highway and not feel like the gerbil is going to fly off the wheel. Those NCS Jettas are actually pretty decent highway cruisers, and while certainly no TDI, they use FAR less fuel at those speeds now, too.

Not really sure why VAG chose to gear so many of their gas cars so frightfully low for so long, but they did. Newer ones not so much. They now often spin less at speed than the older TDIs. I think if someone were so inclined, an ALH swap into one of those lightweight NCS Jetta S would probably net a solid, consistent 60 MPG car within reasonable speeds. I doubt the NCS' systems would play nice with EDC15 though.
 

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Not really sure why VAG chose to gear so many of their gas cars so frightfully low for so long, but they did. Newer ones not so much. They now often spin less at speed than the older TDIs. I think if someone were so inclined, an ALH swap into one of those lightweight NCS Jetta S would probably net a solid, consistent 60 MPG car within reasonable speeds. I doubt the NCS' systems would play nice with EDC15 though.
German cars are usually geared so that maximum speed (not electronically limited) coincides with the maximum power RPM. So, if an engine develops peak power (however many HP it is) at 6000 RPM, and the top speed is 130 MPH, the top gear will have a ratio that results in 3000 RPM at 65 MPH. If you calculate every older stock VW, Diesel or gasser, you will find that this will be true at top gear. This makes sense from physics: gearing that's too tall will result in the car not being able to reach its advertised top speed; too short and it won't, either.

This is, of course, before the days of prioritizing fuel economy with a taller top gear. Nowadays, with transmissions with 6 or more forward speeds, the top gear or two can be made taller than what is necessary to reach terminal velocity, but one of the gears will still have a ratio as described above.
 
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oilhammer

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My '79 4sp 48hp diesel Rabbit would seem to disagree with that statement. Those early cars had a 5th gear option that literally just slapped one more ratio on top, with the spacing still more or less the same as the 4sp. The '81+ "3+E" 4sp boxes were not nearly as low geared.

That is why 5sp swaps were so sought after on those early cars. Of course, the GTIs' 5sp was geared lower, despite having a more powerful engine. My garden variety 1.7L '82 gas Rabbit's 4sp box spun slower at 60 than my 1.8L '84 GTI's 5sp box did. And when we did a JH engine swap into my brother's '81 Rabbit, but kept the 4sp, it was actually quicker than my GTI. Simply because you were not spending as much time shifting. Go figure, LOL. (that 1.8 swapped '81 would also beat my brand new '95 Golf Sport, too....).
 

50harleyrider

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Wow lots of great info! Sounds like if one wants a six speed bhw powered quattro or 4motion passat geared for under 2500 rpm 80 mph cruising, they will have to source a European GYH from a PD170? Any other options that would get us close? Weren't there also other tall 6th trannys imported to the US or does everything point to Euro tdi's?

I had good luck with my early VE 5sp cars attaining those nice cruising features having the wonderful feature of outboard changing 5th only gearing. I assume nothing in awd trannys either 5 or 6sp is changeable?
 
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oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
I think anything you'd want would be a Euro-spec deal. And when I was investigating converting my AWM 4Mo B5 to a BHW, and was looking into sourcing a proper transmission, it seemed like higher output diesel 4Mo B5s were not very common even there. Lots of FWD cars, lots of lower output diesels, lots of smaller gas engines, and a smattering of V6 TDIs that literally nobody likes.

FWIW, the B5 Passat, while rolling largely on the same platform as the Audi A4 of the same time period (the A4 got a refresh in mid-2002, though), the 4Mo parts of the rear end (suspension, diff, rear axles, etc.) are taken from the larger Audi A6 (C5). No idea why VAG did that, unless they felt the Passat's longer wheelbase over the A4 put those rear bits under too much stress?
 

50harleyrider

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I've thought of going ahead and converting a 4 motion B5.5 manual variant. There are a few of them out there. Would the 6speed B7 quattro be an acceptable tranny? Is it geared much taller than the 4motion 5sp manual passat B5.5 tranny from a v6? or did the 4motion US passat manuals all have 1.8T's except of course the W8? I could live with the gearing my B7 had at least until I could source a GHY. The B5.5's were a couple inches longer wb than those B7's and the seats much easier to slide in and out. Mabe a 4motion passat is also sits a little higher than the FWD B5.5?
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
My 4Mo sat at the exact same height as my FWD until I put rough road suspension on it. Now it sits maybe an inch higher... I'm actually looking to put some spacers in the rear as I'd like that to sit up a smidge more.
 

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02X that QuickTD sounds like a good way to go. Better shift quality and widely available on this side of the pond with decent ratios to mate up with the TDI. It's just that they're not a straight drop-in as Quick noted.

Depends on what your objectives are... if you want to maximize cruising FE, you'd want to target the tallest overall gear ratio available - then you'd be better served by importing an 01E with the appropriate trans code; the ones mated to the later V6 TDIs ("GBB", IIRC) are best.

Either way you go, I'd advise retaining the DMF. The Sachs SRE is pricey but will hold up to almost any power upgrade. Several years ago, I was caught stranded 500 miles from home with a failed clutch. I needed to get back on the road ASAP and didn't have time to research and of course cost was a big issue. It turned out that the original DMF and friction disc were still fine but a measly $6 pilot needle bearing had self-destructed, preventing the clutch from engaging. I wound up getting an OE Valeo SMF replacement clutch kit (IIRC from Rock Auto), which I have kind of regretted, although it got me back on the road and has served 100k km since then. However, it slips at full-gun in 4th and 5th gears, but it works for me now that I've lost the need for speed and am a dad. :)
 

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For reference of ratios available in 02X and 0A3:



0A3 codes GVB, HVE and JMG have 0.528 6th gear ratio and yields about 1700 RPM at 62 MPH. There is an even taller overall JMJ but uses a different final drive ratio.
 

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All of my B7 2.0TFSI to BHW swaps have used the GVE 02X. It's 2.558 overall in 6th.
Pretty good, I'd say. My DGW 01A has 2.561 overall in top gear (tallest available for the 01A family) for just under 2100 RPM at 100 km/h with slightly taller tires. @OP, go for it!

What about the gearing in the 6sp 01E found behind the 2.7t in the 2000-2005 C5 quattros? For sure a bullit proof tranny but if Oilhammers' VAG observation is all encompassing, would probably be geared short too in 6th? Those C5's are nice big sedans.
As QuickTD, oilhammer and I have implied, forget the transmissions for other non-TFSI gasser manuals. They are geared too short to be any good. I'd love to have another, taller gear for the driving that I do and in my stock configuration, I am right around where QuickTD's 02X conversions are. They are a newer, lighter transmission family with better shift quality.
 
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50harleyrider

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I got spoiled on my 2015 NMS 6sp. That thing is turning about 2000 rpm at 75-80. I've never been to Canada and all I know is that at 70 on US interstates, you'll get run over. The whole friggin country has become an Autobahn! We need tall gears!!!! Am I right Oilhammer?
 

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When you consider the extra crossmember that will be necessary for the 02X conversion, I think the cost delta - and whether you do the work yourself or not will figure into this - will be roughly a wash with importing a tall ratio 01E. You may also need different starters for either swap. The difference will be about 17.2% or 400 RPM at 80 MPH that you'll live with your choice.
 
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This site suggests that an 0A3 swap into a B5(.5) is not as involved as JHM's BOM above suggests.

Even taller ratios available than 01E (imported) and higher torque rating (than 02X) and latest development and shift quality that will still fit the B5(.5).
 

V70R

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0A3’s fit and are the best option out there, but it’s a bank-draining conversion… presently a TDI 0A3 will be about $1400-1500 USD delivered. And just for the price of buying a W8 driveshaft and having it shortened to accept an 0A3 you could have a GVE 2.0T 02X, linkage, B5.5 4mo driveshaft and the matching rear differential needed to do the conversion. About $500.

A handful of 02X conversions that I’ve done and friends with fairly modified 2.7T’s all exceed 350ft lbs/tq, with many making ~300ft lbs/tq below 3,000rpm and so far we haven’t had a single trans failure (jinx!). Feel it’s a pretty rock solid compromise between reliability and having an awesome car to drive without draining the pocketbook.

Recently the wife has been driving our 2005 Passat wagon TDI, and I think I’ll do an 01X conversion this winter. It’s about 12,000 miles away from the magic number a 5HP19 prefers to say goodnight (150k miles) and I think it would be an awesome combo. The gear ratios would be perfect for a 2L PD, too.

 

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0A3’s fit and are the best option out there, but it’s a bank-draining conversion… presently a TDI 0A3 will be about $1400-1500 USD delivered. And just for the price of buying a W8 driveshaft and having it shortened to accept an 0A3 you could have a GVE 2.0T 02X, linkage, B5.5 4mo driveshaft and the matching rear differential needed to do the conversion. About $500.
I agree with your assessment in principle, but is a unicorn W8 manual center shaft really necessary? Any shaft from an 01E-equipped B5 can be adapted, so from a US-spec S4 or a myriad of European models (which is where you'd get the tranny anyway if going down this route).

I also think that $500 for all those parts for the 02X conversion is a tad optimistic with how crazy used cars and salvage part prices have become lately . Manual B5.5 4mo parts are not exactly dime a dozen. You will also have to spend money to have the VSS sorted out. And how much are you charging for the crossmember?
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
I just take good care of my ZF slushboxes. 230k and 250k and climbing, both with RC1. They are good units if treated correctly. Heck, I have one customer with a 2001 Audi Allroad (so, the 2.7biturbo) with a Wet software upgrade and bigger turbos that I installed (that thing is wicked sick fast) and its original transmission is still kicking at 180k. We did install, proactively, an uprated torque converter and he sent the TCM out for some software changes, but it handles it well.

I'd rather have a manual any day, but I still won't neglect the autoboxes I've already paid for.
 

50harleyrider

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I wonder why V70R's post doesn't show the GYH PD170 tranny? Anyone have the numbers for ratios on it? also how short is the 6th gearing on a 2001 Allroad 2.7t manual?
 

V70R

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I agree with your assessment in principle, but is a unicorn W8 manual center shaft really necessary? Any shaft from an 01E-equipped B5 can be adapted, so from a US-spec S4 or a myriad of European models (which is where you'd get the tranny anyway if going down this route).

I also think that $500 for all those parts for the 02X conversion is a tad optimistic with how crazy used cars and salvage part prices have become lately . Manual B5.5 4mo parts are not exactly dime a dozen. You will also have to spend money to have the VSS sorted out. And how much are you charging for the crossmember?
Unfortunately the driveshaft from a B5 A4 will not swap to a B5/B5.5 Passat. A B5 A4/S4 uses a rear differential that is about 20’‘ or so longer than a 4motion rear differential, making the driveshaft much shorter in comparison.

Also, a 2.8 V6 4motion Passat uses the same rear differential that interchanges with a C5 A6 2.8- this means you can source a rear diff from a C5, B6, B7, or 4motion Passat as long as it matches your final drive.

You’re definitely right about salvage prices! They’ve been up quite a bit since the pandemic. The last 02X setup I bought was about 4 months from LKQ- it was $450 for the trans with engine spacer, shift linkage, and rear differential. Everything has just over 90k miles on it too from a late B7 A4, and from a local car that had not seen any salt.

Next swap we do I’ll give the eeprom option a shot and see if I can get it coded and working, and if so I’ll post a DIY if there’s not one out there. The crossmember we usually just sell for $150; chromoly prices have gone up a smidge down here but it should raise things too much.
 

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Unfortunately the driveshaft from a B5 A4 will not swap to a B5/B5.5 Passat. A B5 A4/S4 uses a rear differential that is about 20’‘ or so longer than a 4motion rear differential, making the driveshaft much shorter in comparison.
This I am familiar with the B5 rear diff is a common DAJ code used in a large number of models. Can't the whole diff be swapped over in place of the 4Mo one?

Also, a 2.8 V6 4motion Passat uses the same rear differential that interchanges with a C5 A6 2.8- this means you can source a rear diff from a C5, B6, B7, or 4motion Passat as long as it matches your final drive.
This modularity is one of the things I enduringly love about VAG group products.

I am guilty of confusing/conflating several different swaps and their components as the discussion has expanded from 50harleyrider's original query about swapping in a 6-speed from a C5 (01E) to include 02X, 0A3 and even 01A and 01X. Getting old and cobwebs in the TDI drawer of my brain. Apologies where due. ☺
 

50harleyrider

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What a wealth of knowledge. Thanks so much guys. I've decided to convert an Allroad to a 6speed manual BHW. I've found a guy who has all the swap parts but he never found a mechanic to perform the swap. He has the TDI Allroad Eurospec 6sp tranny, axcles, rear dif to match, pedals, shifter, cluster and other needed bits and pieces. He's even got an automatic Allroad ready to swap. What would be a good price for me to offer him for either the swap parts or both? Also does anyone know the tranny code it should be so I can check it? The swap parts alone would open up my search for the right Allroad ie an automatic or manual would work. There are quite a few nice automatics with blown engines out there cheap. Any of the early 2000's 2.7t cars good? 4motion passat would be nice but the ride height of the Allroad would be awesome.
 
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That's a good way to go. The Allroads are nice - a whole other level in terms of luxury appointments. The height-adjustable, load-levelling air suspension is also great if you live in an area with bad roads. This is also a source of most problems apart from the transmission and engine that cause many people to list them for sale, so be careful when shopping as replacements are expensive (or price the purchase with replacing them in mind).

Newer is generally better, available until 2005 in the C5. The BHW and manual transmission combo with proper gear ratios is excellent on this car. Beware that the Allroad uses a different, shorter final drive from other Quattro models (IIRC 4.375), so the rear diff must be swapped out as well.

Good, clean Allroads routinely go for under $CAD5,000 around me - I don't know what they go for in your neck of the woods. You might be able to find one with a bad engine, trans and/or air suspension that's otherwise in great shape and low miles for a song if you're patient, lucky and willing to travel.

I reiterate a DMF clutch because SMFs are known to kill 01Es. Combined with a geared balance shaft BHW and a Fluidampr will make for a very smooth powertrain.

Simply a remap, injectors and upgraded turbo (I suggest a GTB2056VKLR 816841-0002 A6420901886, GTD2056VZK 839077-0002 059 145 873BP or 839077-0008 059 145 873CH) can have the BHW putting out more HP than the 2.7t and much more torque. If your HP desire is more modest, you can do without upgrading the injectors, and there is no better turbo than a GTD1752VRK.
 

50harleyrider

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I upgraded my swap BHW to a BV43A and TDtuning stage 2-should be plenty for my swap. So the euro TDI tranny is an 01E with a tall 6th? That's really important to me to have. Is the 4.375 final drive for all or just gasser trannys and rears? What's a good price for all the swap parts minus the BHW?
 
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