Tangentially related to EVs - Residential solar systems

tikal

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Folks:

Starting very preliminary research on the subject. It seems that the residential solar system companies are growing like mushrooms. This is good and bad I supposed. For what I researched so far many large companies (even relatively smaller ones) want to force you to buy their large overhead costs (sales people) and 'extended warranties' (assurance of production for example) for a system that does not have many moving parts (of course it can break down, especially the micro-inverters I would say).

Right now, price wise, the leading contender is https://projectsolar.io/, at around $2.17/watt for a 4.74kW system. Of course getting other quotes from Sunrun (I expect to be one of the most expensive), and local installers (inquiring through a company called CED Greentech located in San Antonio, TX).

Any thoughts, experiences with Project Solar or other feedback welcome.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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My info is old enough (8 years) that the industry has probably changed a lot, but I got several quotes when I was looking for a system (6 kWh), Solar City was pretty new, there were a couple other start ups near me, but I ended up going with a local firm because they chose panels that would fill the roof I had allocated, and every panel has its own controller so if one panel is in the shade (or fails) it won't take out a string. Also, the installer is a carbon credit broker so he collects my production data (I report it monthly), sells the credits, and mails me a check. What's not to like about that? My system has exceeded their production projections, paid for itself in less than 4 years, after credits and rebates.

If there's a smaller company, local to you, preferably, that can offer a good product at a competitive price, I'd suggest you consider going with them instead of a national company. You'll probably get more attention, less selling, and they may be more responsive if you do happen to have a problem.

Good luck!
 

tikal

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Thanks Peter for the feedback.

Yes I am researching local smaller companies. I am trying to get around five estimates. I may end up with the status quo because of our electricity usage (lower than national average) and lower average electrical rates.
 

where2

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In 8 years, I've had one microinverter die, out of 20... (My system, installed in 2013, was a DIY procurement, permit and install, all to NEC 2011. I'm my own service technician for the system, so I know what has been done to keep it functional.) The sun just keeps coming up and beating down on it...
 

tikal

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where2, that's great that you did a DIY procurement. I am sure you did it in a very lean budget in this way and you recoup your investment quicker.

For me it has to be a full install. In my research I have made some progress finding an experienced local solar installer (master electrician nationwide) who has time for me to ask various questions, technical, about permits, insurance, tax considerations and so forth.

One thing that I would do if I go for the solar panel installation is to have the same company install an EV charge plug that it will be compatible with the bi-directional electric vehicles becoming available. We are thinking about a used EV sometime later in 2022. This way, in case of short power outs we will have an second option.

So much to learn on this subject 😲
 
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Daemon64

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Sunrun is annoying.... hahaha I've dealt with them here and on a few friends and family, and they really try to force leasing down your throat it is highly annoying. I had to fight with them three times to get a non-leased quote myself, and the guy was so 70's used car salesman about it so many times that I finally told them to pound sand. The place that has the cheapest solar / watt is Tesla, the problem is they now tie it in w/ the powerwall, so if you want a powerwall in the quote its fine, if not it gets rough and raises the price. For example a 4.25kw solar system in houston for example would cost $8,542 from Tesla, but then comes the powerwall at $10,500, for a total price of $19,042. They then quote the Federal tax credit of -4,951 for that system for a total all in of $14,091.... keep in mind the powerwalls now handle a ton more amps than they used too. But its neither here nor there if that isn't your gig. Sun Power panels are the most efficient but are also the most expensive. But if you have limited roof space / optimal direction they may be the way to go.

As far as setups you need to make sure you have a separate service disconnect on the outside of your house... here in new england they are RARE to see them, maybe in Texas they are common. From there this guy goes over a ton of useful info if you want to try to tackle things yourself:
.... due to electrical mandates and etc... I cannot even get close to doing that here.

This is a useful resource to estimate how much power your array would make: https://sunroof.withgoogle.com/ --- put your address in it tells you rough usable sun hours per year, and multiply that by the size of your array.
 

tikal

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Daemon64, yes here I do have a separate service disconnect as the electrical panel is outside the house (I have a lock on it to avoid anyone messing with it).

Panel wise my objective would be to keep all the necessary panels together on the most sun optimized location of the roof to achieve close to 5 kW system. This might require going with the REC 72 cell solar panel with 450 wp power vs a typical 340 wp or 345 wp solar panel.

Also anyone has any experience with bi-directional EV chargers such as the one from Wallbox or Fermata? This is something very new so perhaps is not operationally approved yet even in a state like California.
 

Daemon64

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They made it 2020 NEC code... https://www.electricallicenserenewa...ation-Courses/NEC-Content.php?sectionID=847.0 ...i guess if you read this its something to do with first responders... In general yes, but also likely to not backfeed the grid in some event as well. I remember watching "Undecided with Matt Ferrell" and he was going over his Tesla Solar install, and the external service disconnect is a requirement. He was thrown for a loop because he's from Mass, and they're almost unheard of here. So that slowed down his install process. Here is the video for example:
 
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vandermic07

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I have been looking at solar for a while. I just cant justify it. My rates are .11/kw. My ROI was 12yrs for a self install. That is unacceptable to me. I have a large SSW facing roof with enough area to generate power to get a payback (in theory). North central PA is notoriously cloudy, so I'm skeptical about about production to start. I also will not take out a loan to do it, so i was looking at scaling up with micro inverters, which was slightly more expensive in the long run, but would allow me to start without a huge investment. If I could get it down to 5 yrs I might pull the trigger. Also considering battery backup systems, like the PowerWall, but those are even more $$$.

I have given up at the moment since i have more pressing things to spend my $ on.
 

UhOh

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vandermic07, your assessment is based on TODAY's energy costs. The trick is always that of trying to figure what the future WILL BE. As the say: The future isn't what it used to be.

I've punted on the entire PV thing (though I have PV panels for my "off-grid" chicken coop and for my front drive gate). I have cheaper electric rates here in the PNW than most, so that helps, for now. ALWAYS the best approach is to MINIMIZE use/need. Though I have not and probably will not install PV, I have nonetheless made it fairly straight-forward for a future owner* of my home/property: nice south-facing garage roof. My money will be going into a new, more efficient house instead (also will have a nice south-facing roof, but I'd prefer to not punch holes in it- the garage is more suitable). I also have power outages here in the country; a generator is more important than a non-usable grid-tied PV system in such cases.

* Most likely resale value is going to be helped by having PV, in which case one is likely to recoup costs (but then purchasing an equivalent is going to have an increased asking price- no real net, but it's all kind of a wash).

ALL is situational.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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If you have a metal roof the panels are clipped onto the metal. No drilling required.
 

UhOh

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As Daemon64 stated.

There's also running the power leads in/out of the building. My garage isn't conditioned, and if there are to be any leaks on any roof I'd prefer it to be the garage's rather than the home's! But, to make things interesting...

One can put up an array ON THE GROUND: someone not far from me did this very thing, recently. For me that would be yet one more thing that my tractor would find!o_O
 

nicklockard

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I have been looking at solar for a while. I just cant justify it. My rates are .11/kw. My ROI was 12yrs for a self install. That is unacceptable to me. I have a large SSW facing roof with enough area to generate power to get a payback (in theory). North central PA is notoriously cloudy, so I'm skeptical about about production to start. I also will not take out a loan to do it, so i was looking at scaling up with micro inverters, which was slightly more expensive in the long run, but would allow me to start without a huge investment. If I could get it down to 5 yrs I might pull the trigger. Also considering battery backup systems, like the PowerWall, but those are even more $$$.

I have given up at the moment since i have more pressing things to spend my $ on.

Same here. I'm looking into just creating an augmented, grid-disconnected hvac system powered by solar panels:

  • 3200 watts of panels, about 8
  • Inverter
  • 220v water chiller
My idea is to chill water during the day on free power to 'hold the cold' and help with peak shaving (I have an area under my stairwell that can hold ~500 gallons of water). I would have a heat exchanger in the loop too (cheap radiator with a fan on a timer). I would set the water chiller's minimum temperature to about 5-8 degrees over the expected, highest dew point temperature to avoid molding/condensation issues. It would be a closed loop with water.

The solar panels would start making power around 6:50 am and the chiller would work till around 6:20 pm (during our peak heat months). At around 2pm, I'd have the fan and a small recirculating pump kick on to spread some cold air out to the house, until 8pm. This would offset most of my electric during the hottest hours, and help 'peak shaving' by keeping demand low. Then, I'd have the fan turn back on at 4am-8am to 'pre-charge' the cool water from the house HVAC, when power is cheapest and the AC is most efficient.

I kind of do this anyway--having a 'cold battery' really helps. I have a lot of themal mass (water bottles) under the stairs now which helps 'hold the cold', as does the concrete slab foundation and the building materials themselves. But without augmented cooling, it only lasts till about 5pm, and my house HVAC has to kick in to keep temps under control.

Haven't done the workup on brands and costing data yet, but I figure if I could get an ROI less than 5 years it's a no-brainer.

My power is cheap by base rates, but with TOU upcharges (4.5x) and peak demand rates on top of that, it's not so cheap, unless you are willing to sweat to death from noon to 8 when the sun is at it's hottest. Now if I could just find a cost-effective water chiller/heater...I could get my winter gas bills down too!
 

UhOh

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nicklockard, I like the general idea of banking (I spent a lot of time looking into full, off-grid power, looking at mini-hydro and had considered daytime, up-hill pumping via solar PVs and then using micro-hydro to generate electricity for evening time), but I have to wonder whether this is cost-effective. The scale just doesn't sound like it would be big enough to justify all the components. If there's one thing I've learned about having a bunch of stuff is that MAINTENANCE is always a lot more than most would think/suggest: and things will want to break when you're strapped for time! And keep a thought in mind as to who is the backup maintenance person! In general: DON'T OVERLOOK MAINTENANCE/SAFETY ISSUES (if you plan properly you could be OK); a 500 gallon tank deciding to spring a leak will get one's attention very fast! (plan for a tank failure, lest your insurance company coming along later and tell you that you should have)

Heatinghelp.com is a great place to go for hydronic-related things: hydronic heating, water and pumps! (y)
 

nicklockard

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nicklockard, I like the general idea of banking (I spent a lot of time looking into full, off-grid power, looking at mini-hydro and had considered daytime, up-hill pumping via solar PVs and then using micro-hydro to generate electricity for evening time), but I have to wonder whether this is cost-effective. The scale just doesn't sound like it would be big enough to justify all the components. If there's one thing I've learned about having a bunch of stuff is that MAINTENANCE is always a lot more than most would think/suggest: and things will want to break when you're strapped for time! And keep a thought in mind as to who is the backup maintenance person! In general: DON'T OVERLOOK MAINTENANCE/SAFETY ISSUES (if you plan properly you could be OK); a 500 gallon tank deciding to spring a leak will get one's attention very fast! (plan for a tank failure, lest your insurance company coming along later and tell you that you should have)

Heatinghelp.com is a great place to go for hydronic-related things: hydronic heating, water and pumps! (y)
Yeah the water bladder would be my biggest concern. There are heavy gauge, 500 gallon water bladders with various certification levels; some even meet MILSPEC's for water transport & storage, but they're quite expensive. I'd not worry about an inverter or solar panels much. The hydronic unit though...and the couplers and line sets....you're right. This is why so far I'm doing an all-passive system using bottles (old wine bottles, old water containers, etcetera). Someday maybe....kinda think you're right though. The maintenance would negate any benefits if it failed in any big way(s).
 

turbobrick240

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Sounds interesting. You'd still need some amount of battery for buffering. Seems like the simpler solution would be a bit more battery storage in connection with a traditional high efficiency AC unit. The thermal mass would help even things out.
 

turbobrick240

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135 mph wind limit for clamped onto standing seam metal. Ida was?

I'd definitely want a good homeowners insurance policy if I lived anywhere near hurricane alley. Especially with global warming juicing up storms with energy from warmer waters. How did you make out? Not a lot of damage, hopefully.
 

gulfcoastguy

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I live just to the East of Biloxi Mississippi or an hour and a half East of New Orleans. So just a lot of rain, a few limbs down, and never lost power. Now Katrina or Camille were a different story.
 

vandermic07

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UHOH
I didnt focus in on future prices, but only mild historical increase. Our Rural CO-OP is pretty stable and has decent perks. I was more looking to get grandfathered into Net Metering incase they decided to not offer it anymore. I was going to do a mini system with micro inverters just to get into the Net metering plan, but COVID happened and i went into saver mode.

I don't see them jacking prices overnight. What the Government is doing/ going to do is more concerning to me. That is what makes the cost/benefit so hard to judge.

nicklockard

I have been scheme'n all kinds of systems to try. I saw an episode of This Old House were the had hot/cold inground tanks and used heatpumps to heat and cool liquid in the tanks. it was pretty slick. I would love to try that system but i have too many irons in the fire now and not enough cash.



I don't have room for a 500 gal tank in my basement for heating. I do have a 120 gal water tank storage system for my potable water. My well wasnt keeping up in the dry summers we had recently so I designed and built a storage system with a bypass incase I have a secondary pump or tank failure. It was a fun project. I really enjoy figuring out and doing these kinds of projects.
 

greengeeker

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I thought that was only if you have standing seem. Not sure that works for corr w/ fasteners or the other metal panels....
There are some nice brackets available which interface with typical tin ribs.
There's also running the power leads in/out of the building. My garage isn't conditioned, and if there are to be any leaks on any roof I'd prefer it to be the garage's rather than the home's! But, to make things interesting...
For MN, there are new requirements which severely limit available roof area usage on on a house. If you are installing on a garage (different usage classification) and this limit goes away. Not sure if this is an NEC thing applied by all states...maybe just a few. When I did the math it equated to a ~30% reduction in area which severely reduced output and extended the payback period.
 

Vwkaferman

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I live just to the East of Biloxi Mississippi or an hour and a half East of New Orleans. So just a lot of rain, a few limbs down, and never lost power. Now Katrina or Camille were a different story.
I used to live in Ocean Springs back in the day, lived out at St. Andrews before we moved. Makes me sad what happened to it. We used to T up on one of the holes (hey, I was young) and hit golf balls at the St. Andrews water tower and BOOOONNNNNG lol. Katrina knocked it down.

Anyways, went to middle school and first year of High School there, left in '91. Howdy from an old O.S. resident. :)

(P.S. sorry for thread jack).

James
 

UhOh

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Keep in mind that PRICES are one thing, AFFORDABILITY another! (if you're employed and prices creep up a bit it's not the same as if you are unemployed and prices go up [and if you're unemployed prices can go down and while those who are employed benefit/enjoy that decrease, that decrease is of little positive impact to you])

If it's a subsidized affair (I can go pretty deep on all this- pretty much everything is subsidized) it's not sustainable. Economies of scale will start to strain as more and more people find things less-affordable.

Latching on to the grid-tie program is fine. That's a form of mitigation. Just make sure that you're not depending on that financially: if there's payback here then feel good about it; set expectations low and any changes will have less of a negative impact. It IS all subsidized (and less people paying into the pool [unemployed] means that those who are paying will be paying more- note that this isn't applicable to a LOT more than just PV and such])

greengeeker notes a situation in which one could be blindsided. If my garage were in MN I'd still be well-positioned (or, rather, a future owner would be), given the current policy (which will change, how it will change is nearly impossible to know).
 

tikal

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Tesla Solar used to be competitive price-wise but starting this past April 2021 they force you to get at least one Powerball at an additional cost of around $10K. Not so competitive anymore on top of so-so reviews of customer experience to begin with for this company.

Using an EV as the extra battery for emergency situations (power outs) sounds much more appealing to me and more of a win-win situation if it can be implemented (I do not think it is approved in any state but I could be wrong).
 

Daemon64

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Tesla Solar used to be competitive price-wise but starting this past April 2021 they force you to get at least one Powerball at an additional cost of around $10K. Not so competitive anymore on top of so-so reviews of customer experience to begin with for this company.

Using an EV as the extra battery for emergency situations (power outs) sounds much more appealing to me and more of a win-win situation if it can be implemented (I do not think it is approved in any state but I could be wrong).
As a point of note I read that Tesla and solar city use hanwha panels... which rebranded to q.cell.... so.... https://sunwatts.com/q-cells-solar-kits/

Just saying... could be an option...
 
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tikal

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As a point of note I read that Tesla and solar city use hanwha panels... which rebranded to q.cell.... so.... https://sunwatts.com/q-cells-solar-kits/

Just saying... could be an option...
Yes Q.Cell is a good value solar panel. The issue, to my knowledge, is that Tesla/Solar City does not allow anymore solar panel only systems, it needs to have a battery. So no bueno ...
 

Daemon64

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Yes Q.Cell is a good value solar panel. The issue, to my knowledge, is that Tesla/Solar City does not allow anymore solar panel only systems, it needs to have a battery. So no bueno ...
Absolutely. I was just meaning from a supplier like that you could just get the stuff and DIY. MUCH cheaper... hahha
 
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