ALH IP front shaft seal replacement pictorial with subtitles ;)...

[jimbote]

To me, having the hub's index pin inserted where it should go just helps to be able to start the car for the first time after belt service or pump replacement. I find that it will get the timing close to the blue line on the graph on a new or non-worn out pump. It is seldom left there anyway.
On the AHU/1Z pump you don't even have that advantage even though the shaft is keyed to the hub. You have to estimate where to locate the mount bolts in the slots. The pulley pin is there just to get the belt on the closest tooth choice. It does not seem that critical to be counting hundreds of a millimeter of plunger lift in a practical sense. There is always VCDS - basic settings to see where to put it.

yeah, super rare i ever do a belt job and the pump timing is dead on or even in the same place

 

[dieseldrive]

stupifying .... as long as the bolts are in the slots and timing is where you want it in the graph you can put the hub wherever you want on the shaft and it will still fuel exactly where it's supposed to .... and if you insist otherwise there is a serious lack of spatial comprehension going on where you're concerned... i have no problem with you doing it your way but the position of slot in the hub in relation to the shaft is COMPLETELY irrelevant to SOI ... SOI is determined by the relationship between the plunger and the crankshaft ... in the micro, when YOU bosch bench a pump, sure it has to be dead nuts on, because mr bosch says so, but in the real macro world, workbench assembling as i do, and the slot being off a smidge to the plunger, it does not make any difference whatsoever, because we don't set dynamic timing with the slot, we set it with vcds, which on the backside is as good or better than dial indicating ...please wrap your head around that before bashing my shadetree method

I am sorry that you are perceiving my explaining to those on this thread how to index the drive shaft hub. as trying to insult you - it is not my intent (some folks do appreciate knowing). I do think you are totally misunderstanding my point, and that is; when these pumps are built the hub is indexed at .85mm plunger lift to provide the proper injection timing for starting AND the the proper position for to be "in range" for the ECM to do its thing (same as a VP44 on a Cummins, or a p7100 inline pump on a Mack, or a Delphi on a Perkins, or any engine that uses a pin to set injection timing. This design was created to make injection pumps easier to time to the engine (the timing is actually being set by the fuel injection technician instead of the mechanic installing it on the engine.

Back to the VP37 in a VW application. The ECM cannot advance the timing at cranking speeds because the timing advance system uses hydraulic pressure to overcome spring pressure, and at 200 rpms there is not enough pressure to move the piston. When cranking, the engine advance piston is stationary and is held against its stop plate until the engine speed gets up to idle. It is also a fact that the ECM CANNOT retard the timing to any point below what the .85 mm lift provides (the advance piston cannot move backwards, no way, no how).

It is very rare to have to tweak the timing on an installed VP 37 that has its hub re-indexed properly after it is installed on the engine. The tweaking that you are doing is most likely being required because the hub is off (as the pumps internal parts wear and set in, the base timing keeps getting later, and later). If you reinstall it correctly you will be back to new specs. It really doesn't take that much to do it right, just a dial indicator and adapter to fit the VP37, and a long handle to hold the drive shaft while tightening the hub retaining nut.

I have resealed several hundred VP 37's for folks from all over the US, and have never had a customer tell me that they had to go in and tweak the timing using software. I have built dozens of these pumps for local shops installing them, and the same is true. I have installed dozens of them myself that I have built, and have never had to tweak the timing using software. If the hub is indexed properly, the timing will be right.

 

[jimbote]

you are trippin dieseldrive ... you may have rebuilt several hundred vp pumps but you've obviously not installed many because they almost invariably require tweaking even when set up by a bosch technician ...there are many other variables involved that affect dynamic pump timing and you can dial indicate your pump to .000001 and i promise it'll still require tweaking on nine out of ten engines it's installed on...it's pretty laughable that you insist your pump setup is so precise and superior that all the variables that affect dynamic timing just magically disappear when a pump you've setup or any bosch tech has set up is installed on the engine ... smh

 

[dieseldrive]

you are trippin dieseldrive ... you may have rebuilt several hundred vp pumps but you've obviously not installed many because they almost invariably require tweaking even when set up by a bosch technician ...there are many other variables involved that affect dynamic pump timing and you can dial indicate your pump to .000001 and i promise it'll still require tweaking on nine out of ten engines it's installed on...it's pretty laughable that you insist your pump setup is so precise and superior that all the variables that affect dynamic timing just magically disappear when a pump you've setup or any bosch tech has set up is installed on the engine ... smh

Yours apparently do, and its not my set up. When repairs are done correctly, they work properly. And I have installed hundreds of pumps.

How do you think pumps were timed before the alignment pin method was implemented by Bosch (and before the timing was controlled by the ecm). It was done with a dial indicator when installing the pump the the engine, and you were done. It is quite simple really. When the pump is built the start of injection timing is adjusted by installing the proper shim between the cam-plate and plunger, which then enables the start of injection timing to be found again using a dial indicator. The installing mechanic didn't have to go back in and change piston apply pressure or spring resistance to tweak it (you could but you would be playing with fire (not to mention voiding the warranty on the pump and engine). I know and understand that things are different now, just trying to give folks an better understanding of the evolution from VE to VP timing systems (much of the same has occurred on other types of injection pumps as well).

The ecm assumes that base timing is correct, and that's where it starts from. Actual Start of injection is a mechanical function (not electronic). It occurs when the plunger reaches the point in its stroke that the fill ports are close off by the rising plunger, and its not as complicated as many believe. The ecm knows where the piston is in the cylinder through the crank position sensor and it knows when the start of injection acutally occurs once the engine is running through the needle lift sensor on the # 3 nozzle holder assembly, it calculates the actual running timing timing based on these two sensors. If the base timing is correct, the ecm can then put it anywhere it needs it within the mechanical limits of the timing advance pistons stroke/available pressure at the advance piston servo (which is engine speed dependent). If the base timing is off by more than a few degrees (3 or 4 tenths of a millimeter plunger lift), it CANNOT get it to where it needs to be. THE ECM NEEDS THE BASE TIMING TO BE CORRECT!

 

[jimbote]

please start your own thread on how perfect the bosch method is and stop polluting my thread... i understand exactly how the ecm and pump work to change timing and i'm not interested in your theories or opinions... maybe you're ASSuming i adjust timing by vcds tweaks ? i do not, but i use the method in the bentley manual by loosening the three hub bolts and turning the hub in relation to the sprocket and use vcds to observe how my changes affect the SOI

 

[KLXD]

Hope I can get this in before this thread is locked.

I am not going to tell you you are wrong, but I will try to explain that BASE TIMING STILL MATTERS (the position of the hub on the shaft). While it is true that once the engine is RUNNING, the ECM will command the injection timing to where it wants it but, during engine cranking the injection timing IS determined by the position of the hub on the shaft/the pump properly installed on the engine. This is due to the FACT that at cranking speeds there is not enough fuel pressure to move the advance piston (overcome return spring pressure). In other words, it is impossible to effect cranking injection timing with software - its all mechanical/hydraulic at that point.

.5mm is a huge amount BTW, the tolerance (according to Bosch, but what do they know right) is .05mm. I am sure you realize that a diesel fuel injection pump is the most precise component in the entire automotive world (closest clearances and tolerances).

Is there anything wrong with doing things properly?

I understood you to say elsewhere that a perfectly set up pump will require no adjustment after installation and that adjustment is required due to wear.

My understanding is also that when checking timing the ECU's electronic control of the timing is disabled so you are seeing the mechanical setting.

Not so?

This allows repositioning the sprocket on the hub to make up for internal wear. Or mispositioning the hub on the shaft.

The sprocket/hub or hub/shaft are ultimately the same adjustment: the belt/shaft relationship. One determined with a gauge the other by reading the needle lift through software.

Not so?

No one is arguing that base timing is not important. It doesn't help the discussion to to make statements like that so you can refute them.

Nor does this kind of statement: ".5mm is a huge amount BTW, the tolerance (according to Bosch, but what do they know right) is .05mm. I am sure you realize that a diesel fuel injection pump is the most precise component in the entire automotive world (closest clearances and tolerances)."`

Why not drop the condescending attitude.

"Is there anything wrong with doing things properly?"

No, and Jimbote said that early on.

So, if you can respond to my specific questions I will have better understanding of the VW TDI system.

 

[jokila]

OK as promised a foolproof guide to replacing the front shaft seal on our ALH injection pumps without losing the hub to shaft timing...pics and subtitles beelow....


tools required: someway to hold the pump hub independent of the pump itself, this is my homemade tool (you can also just clamp the hub in a vice), a pump shaft lock bolt... a long audi flywheel bolt a ranger V6 bolt or a service tool such as the one pictured above that i removed from and industrial VE pump ... bolt size/pitch 10x1mm, i would say at least 2.25" long ... another potential source would be some bicycle axles


"homemade tool" clamped in the vice with pump hub bolted up, pump lock pin in place


removing the plug from the lock bolt port


comparing the service bolt on right with the plug on left


shaft lock bolt in place snugged pretty good...you don't want the shaft to slip


loosen the nut and use a three jaw puller to pop the hub loose...I snug it good and tap the puller bolt with a hammer...finish removing the nut/lock washer and remove the pump from the hub..... it's not your eyes...the picture sucks!!


modified screw driver for seal removal


get the hook under the seal being careful not to mar the shaft and work the seal out carefully ...clean the shaft lube up the new seal and reinstall


reinsert the pump taper shaft into the hub (hub is still bolted to tool in vice)...reinsert the pump lock pin through the hub and into the pump lock hole ..install lock washer and nut and tighten nut to 59 ft lb .... finished !!

Photos don't show up.

 

[jimbote]

Photos don't show up.

yeah, photobucket shut down third party hosting in lieu of multi hundred dollar ransom... i'll get pics back up as time permits

 

[B52guy]

Bump, Any chance of getting pictures added back in so I can make sense of it all?

 

[ymz]

Bump, Any chance of getting pictures added back in so I can make sense of it all?

I have the original post - including photos - saved as a PDF... but I can't figure out how to upload it here...

 

[Reespiece]

I have the original post - including photos - saved as a PDF... but I can't figure out how to upload it here...

Is there any chance you could email this pdf to me? Having some massive issues with the car so I’m trying to fit an alh pump now but the one I have managed to “borrow” long term from a friend has been removed improperly

 

[AndyBees]

Yeah, I dumped PhotoBucket years ago .......... everyone needs to learn how to use the Club's photo system. It is a bit cumbersome until you get the hang of it. In my opinion, it is easier to use than PhotoBucket.

Yes, Ymz, send me a copy of that PDF file .....

 

[Uncle Karone]

I have the original post - including photos - saved as a PDF... but I can't figure out how to upload it here...

I too would like to have a copy of that PDF emailed if at all possible. Thanks in advance for your consideration!

 

[csstevej]

Ok…I too would like a copy…..if it isn’t too much of a hassle please……

 

[Nuje]

Me three!
(And I'll post a link to it in this thread here as well.)

 

[03TDICommuter]

Me three!
(And I'll post a link to it in this thread here as well.)

Me four! And thanks for posting a link.

 

[Nuje]

User @ymz (Yuri) got back to me with the .pdf he'd made of the page outlining the procedure.
Here we be.

 

[ymz]

Sorry it took me so long - I haven't been frequenting this site for a little while... all our 2003s are currently non-functioning, and I haven't had time (or energy) to get around to fixing them... so for the time being, we got a 2016 gas-powered (Sacrilege!!!) Sportwagen... miss the ALH... A while back, Perjad (Precision Tuning) told me to forget about million-kilometer vehicles when it comes to the newer cars... seeing all the extraneous sensors, solenoids, plastic engine parts and toys, I fully believe him now...

 

[AndyBees]

Thanks for the PDF file.

Yuri, at my age, I suspect I'll be keeping the ALHs in this family going. I have an 03 Jetta that I purchased from my brother. The body/trans has 271k miles on them. The engine has those miles plus another 50k. The engine come from an 01.

I gave the 2000 Jetta to my son. He uses it as one of his relay vehicles as he's an engineer withe CSX Railroad. The 2000 has over 380k miles on it. Both cars are in pretty good condition. Also, I have an 02 ALH engine in my 84 Vanagon with about 209k miles on it.

Two years ago we purchased a really nice (zero dents, chips, etc.) 2011 Tiguan for cheap ............Yeah, that gasser 2.0 engine is junk but I think I can keep it going .............my wife loves it.

Again, thanks for the PDF File! Much appreciated!

 

[pyromancer]

User @ymz (Yuri) got back to me with the .pdf he'd made of the page outlining the procedure.
Here we be.

Link isn't working would love to take a look at this PDF.

 

[Nuje]

Sorry about that; link fixed.
ALH IP Shaft Seal Replacement

 

[pyromancer]

Sorry about that; link fixed.
ALH IP Shaft Seal Replacement

Thanks, but this doesn't seem to match the directions in this thread. It talks about drilling a hole into the shaft. I am trying to avoid doing that. It seems to be a PDF version of this thread instead. https://forums.tdiclub.com/index.php?threads/how-to-alh-ip-shaft-seal.372069/

 

[Nuje]

Sorry - that's all I got / had from @ymz. I didn't realize it was a different thread that still had intact images.