1Z motor hard cranks forever before starting... help

[tbones]

Hi All,

I have a 1Z motor out of a 97 Jetta now installed in a 87 Syncro Westy. when cold or hot, it take about 20 seconds of cranking for the engine over before it starts.
The motor seems to run ok once it's started.

Any thoughts on what or where to start looking
regards,
Steve

 

[KLXD]

I'd check the timing look for air getting into the fuel system. Usually these are cold start problems but if severe enough they could affect warm starts. I'd expect an air problem to be worse the longer it sits but maybe not depending how the fuel is plumbed.

 

[Mongler98]

definitely sounds like a fuel delivery prime failure issues (aka a leaking fuel thingy)
these cars do not have a fuel pump, they have a injection pump that draws fuel by itself. common issues are the check valves at the fuel tank. you can easily check this by putting some pressure, in the fuel return line to the tank past the filter and spraying soapy water mix over the fittings. if air can leak out, then it will definitely leak in and cause a prime failure. also the check valves do tend to just go bad and cause low fuel flow. either way, the best way to tell if this is your issue, is to do a fuel loop.

go get a can of liquid moly diesel purge and some 2 foot lengths of fuel line and bypass the entire cars system. reason to use this is its clean fuel and it will help clean things so win win. if the car starts easy, then your cars fuel system is suspect (fuel lines and fittings.

a very common area of air leaking into the system is the thermostatic T fitting at the filter. there is an o'ring that can be replaced.

you have clear sections of fuel lines on your car so you should be able to see if air is present, a few small air bubbles if fine, but a lot of them or dry lines is a clear indicator that there is a prime loss.

 

[Jetta SS]

Another common one is injection pump leaking somewhere. You'll smell the diesel, maybe see some in the pump area.

 

[Steve Addy]

If you don't have them, add one-way valves to the fuel lines to eliminate fuel from draining back when shut off. Also, I would add clear fuel lines from the fuel filter assembly to the IP to be able to see whether there's any air in the system when you start cranking.

Use good quality FI hose clamps too.

Steve

 

[MarsBar]

Been there, done that. Replace the IP, it'll save you a lot of grief. We found a used AHL style, did the mods, and life went back to being simple.

 

[Mongler98]

Why would you replace a working pump and just assume it's the pump. That's the last thing you should do. Throwing parts blindly at it is the most foolish way to fix things.
An IP that runs fine once started is not the issue. A leak could very well be and its extremely common.

 

[KLXD]

Been there, done that. Replace the IP, it'll save you a lot of grief. We found a used AHL style, did the mods, and life went back to being simple.

You might be right but are you going to cover the cost if you're not?

Better to troubleshoot the problem.

 

[tbones]

Hey gang,

Here is the update from the road. The van runs very well when she is running and yes, I’m surmising it Is a fuel bleed issue, or air leak... or possibly this:

A knowledgeable mechanic said I need something called a frequency valve… I’m not sure what that is or what it does, but according to him, who has access to a VAG com said it was out of sorts. For those in the know, does What he said make sense as to why it would be starting hard both cold and hot??

thanks again for all your replies!
Regards steve

 

[KLXD]

There's the oddly named "cold start" valve that controls the timing on VE pumps but never heard of a valve by that name. Shoulda asked him where it is and what it does.

 

[tbones]

That’s what I thought, too!

Can someone tell me what’s that black thing that attaches to the side of the pump is? It is the wire connector and it bolts to the side of the pump with four bolts, And one of those Fasteners has a very odd shaped head to it. I think he intimated that was the issue…

Thanks again everyone… Knocking on wood, my road trip is going well despite the hard starting. My plan is to end up tomorrow in Moab, Utah after leaving Annapolis Maryland on Monday morning.

Regards,

Steve

 

[KLXD]

It's simply a bulkhead fitting for the wires that pass through the side of the case. From there they go up to the board the electrickery is mounted to and are welded, yes welded, to pins on the board. They have to be broken loose if one wants to completely disassemble the quantity adjuster.

It seems to me that he know little or nothing about a VE pump. It is well that he didn't try to fix your problem.

There's a list here somewhere of mechanics with good reputations. Maybe look up guys along your route just in case.

 

[tbones]

Thanks for your reply,

Well, I won’t blame him, As I was not paying enough attention when he was talking and pointing..

Is this quantity adjuster something that is Repaired outside of a complete rebuild of the pump?

Thanks again,

Steve

 

[KLXD]

The QA is the blockish housing that sits on top of the horizontal pump housing. It has a vertical electric "motor" that rotates about 90* to control how much the pump injects to each cylinder.

There's a seal on its cover and another between it and the pump housing. The changing this lower seal involves reinstalling the QA in the exact location to get the right injection quantity. I and many many others have done it using VCDS software to read the IQ.

What a professional shop does to the QA on a rebuild I don't know. Obviously there are some sort of bearings in there. Just bushings, not balls I think. Maybe they wear, maybe not. Lotsa guys have replaced the seals on the QA and pump.

There's one on the pump head to housing interface that often leaks and requires some care or the internals can fall apart. There're instructions on this site for doing it in place. I've done it a few times but with the pump removed and fully disassembled.

 

[MarsBar]

You might be right but are you going to cover the cost if you're not?

Better to troubleshoot the problem.

Went through exactly what OP's describing, progressed over the course of several months. It went from intermittent hard/long starts to finally not starting at all. Checked the timing, checked for air in fuel lines, honed out the check valve into the tank, changed the fuel filter, resealed the IP. Resealing only helped a few months, the internals were worn out. Soon as replaced the worn out IP with an ALH style, it started & ran like a champ until being totalled.

So your assumption that someone else's experience and fix of the same thing has no credence. . .

 

[tbones]

HI All,

An update,... the pump started (sometimes needing starting fluid) every time. and it got me 4200 miles (from Annapolis MD to Moab, UT and back.) I still have to put a VAGCOM on it to see what the timing, etc is doing... I'm heading to Bustoberfest (blue rocks campground in PA) next weekend, and my buddy is bringing down his VAGCOM setup, so I can finally diagnose if it's the pump timing, or something else.

I'll keep you all informed!

thanks again,
Steve

 

[Mongler98]

You do know I'm closer to you and I have a cable.

 

[tbones]

Hi Mongler98,

Thanks for your offer, but I've found the hard starting issue... it's air getting into the system.

I did the DieselPurge transfusion (run the pump for a can of LubroMoly DieselPurge, with but the intake and return lines going into the can while running the engine). It started easily i did this, and there were no air bubbles visible. I BELIEVE there's an airleak in the return(?) line, coming off the top of the fuel filter and going back to the tank.(it's NOT the other(intake?) line, which is secured by the circlip, and has the oring on the connector.

I don't understand the complexity of that fuel filter...WHY are there so many lines coming and going into it?

this weekend while camping, I STILL will have my buddy do a timing check this weekend on my van with his VAGCOM to see if it's in spec, but for now at least I can rule out the pump as being the hard start issue.

thanks all for your help on this!!


regards,
Steve

 

[Mongler98]

Hi Mongler98,

Thanks for your offer, but I've found the hard starting issue... it's air getting into the system.

I did the DieselPurge transfusion (run the pump for a can of LubroMoly DieselPurge, with but the intake and return lines going into the can while running the engine). It started easily i did this, and there were no air bubbles visible. I BELIEVE there's an airleak in the return(?) line, coming off the top of the fuel filter and going back to the tank.(it's NOT the other(intake?) line, which is secured by the circlip, and has the oring on the connector.

I don't understand the complexity of that fuel filter...WHY are there so many lines coming and going into it?

this weekend while camping, I STILL will have my buddy do a timing check this weekend on my van with his VAGCOM to see if it's in spec, but for now at least I can rule out the pump as being the hard start issue.

thanks all for your help on this!!


regards,
Steve

Cool
It's the way VW decided to heat up the fuel. Heat up hljust the fuel filter with return diesel. As you found out, a lot of fuel gets returned. Helps speed up the emissions and engine health. It's not really needed and a oring usually solves the issue.

 

[lisab4]

had the same problem. Turned out a leak in the Bosch fuel pump

 

[tbones]

UPDATE:

I put another pump on Sunny, as I had a good used one and wanted to eliminate that as an issue. It turned out I didn't set the pump timing advanced enough, and, thanks to ninedee_golf_tdi, AKA Tom in Stafford VA, I was able to finally CORRECTLY time sunny! The new pump I installed was quite retarded, timing-wise, so much so that the VCDS clamed it was too far ADVANCED in timing, and we were able to set it with his VCDS. So sunny is starting great now!

on the way home, it acted up, and I'll start a new thread on this now.


thanks to all who helped me with this issue!


Regards,
Steve