Hard start after timing belt job, please help

d2freeman

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2013
Location
NC
TDI
2013 Passat TDI SE
What he said, I have done this job 3 times now and each time after rotating 2 times I had to adjust again to get the pins back in.
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
I'm pretty sure the car would be throwing codes if the cam timing was off. Perhaps not if the hpfp is 180* out of whack. If the car ran well for 10 miles, it's not off on cam timing enough to hurt anything by running it some more.
 

eugene89us

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Joined
Mar 17, 2014
Location
Southern USA
TDI
2014 Volkswagen Passat TDI SEL Premium
I worked about 23 hours over the 2 days this weekend, but I was still checking up this forum for the photos. Without photos to show cam and HPFP slots with crankshaft locked, all we can do is hypothesize. Having seen someone else struggle with hard starts by being 1 tooth off makes me reasonably confident in that hypothesis, though I do not claim to be a mechanic. It may be just about anything related to fuel/air delivery, though wouldn't you expect misfires at load if the air in the fuel system hypothesis is the culprit? I did not disconnect fuel lines at other users' recommendation, so I did not have to deal with airlock concerns.
 

eugene89us

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Mar 17, 2014
Location
Southern USA
TDI
2014 Volkswagen Passat TDI SEL Premium
LOL. I won't lie - it took me 5 or 6 tries to get the pins to go in after 2 complete rotations. I would have perfect fit for all 3 pins - crank, cam, and HPFP. I would not even try to readjust HPFP, but after correction, all pins would fit like a glove! Then I would turn twice, and camshaft and HPFP would stop fitting. Always had to turn crank counterclockwise to remove slack, then clockwise to re-pin crankshaft - once cam was re-pinned, crank pin was always over to the right of the hole by a hair. So you had to loosen camshaft, move crank counterclockwise, then clockwise back until pin went in. Repeat 2 rotations - no go again!

Then I realized when I would lock camshaft, loosened the 3 bolts and turned crankshaft backward then forward, the tensioner needle would still be in right place but slightly different compared to if I only moved the crank twice in a correct direction. It seemed like going opposite direction, then forward direction caused slightly different tension in belt compared to only clockwise direction.

So for the final attempt, I found the pin holes perfectly, and then before tightening camshaft sprocket, I removed all the pins and *purposefully* offset cam pin hole a little so pin would barely stop fitting (I cannot recall which direction now), but literally by a hair - opposite way and amount that I always was off after 2 spins. Then I tightened everything, turned the crank twice - locked crankshaft and had a PERFECT fit for camshaft. HPFP was close, but stopped fitting by a hair, which is fine. Then I did it again - perfect cam-crank fit, and once more for good measure - all perfectly fitting! That was my workaround, because the normal way always caused the pins not to fit, despite perfect alignment during readjustment process. The car started like nothing happened once things got put together, a great relief for me. My plight is likely unique, but my end goal was to fit pins perfectly after 2, 4, 6 crank rotations, and it did. But I had to do some funky junk to make that happen since factory process did not work out.
 

iaiadimon

Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2023
Location
Canada
TDI
Passat 2005 , 2013 , 2015
Hi everybody, after replacing timing on the TDI you take VCDS and check in the programme how right you adjust 1-st die point. The new belt tighter vs old . And yes I’m use VW tool for lock crankshaft and camshaft when replace timing
 

Will27

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Joined
Jul 25, 2017
Location
New Zealand
TDI
'06 Golf TDI, '08 Caddy TDI, '13 Passat Alltrack
Then I realized when I would lock camshaft, loosened the 3 bolts and turned crankshaft backward then forward, the tensioner needle would still be in right place but slightly different compared to if I only moved the crank twice in a correct direction. It seemed like going opposite direction, then forward direction caused slightly different tension in belt compared to only clockwise direction
If you turn the crank counter clockwise it puts tension on the back of the belt and slack on the front, which is the opposite of how it operates. If you need to turn the engine ccw for some reason, do it from the cam sprocket. This will keep the slack in the belt by the tensioner where it should be:)
 

AverageAndy

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Sep 14, 2020
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Phoenix, AZ
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2013 Passat TDI SEL, 2013 Golf TDI 6MT, 2013 Jetta TDI 6MT (R.I.P.)
Hi everybody, after replacing timing on the TDI you take VCDS and check in the programme how right you adjust 1-st die point. The new belt tighter vs old . And yes I’m use VW tool for lock crankshaft and camshaft when replace timing
You don't need VCDS to do the timing belt, unless you want to run the fuel pump (assuming you unhooked any lines). Yes, the new belt is tighter than the old and will probably stretch a little, so I think most will set the tensioner to the right (tightest) side of the adjustment window.
 

eugene89us

Veteran Member
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Mar 17, 2014
Location
Southern USA
TDI
2014 Volkswagen Passat TDI SEL Premium
If you turn the crank counter clockwise it puts tension on the back of the belt and slack on the front, which is the opposite of how it operates. If you need to turn the engine ccw for some reason, do it from the cam sprocket. This will keep the slack in the belt by the tensioner where it should be:)
Will, you're absolutely right. But you have to turn the engine CCW when you are adjusting the timing if your crank hole is to the right when you cam is locked. Once you do your 2 clockwise turns, then you try to fit the pins and they do not fit after you locked the crank, the procedure has you remove crank lock, move the crankshaft until the camshaft pin fits, then you have to loosen camshaft sprocket and decide where you need to move crankshaft to re-pin it. In my case, crankshaft was always off the hole to the right. Which requires crankshaft to be moved clockwise up to max camshaft window allowance, then move back clockwise until pin would enter the hole. You cannot tighten from camshaft when you loosened your 3 bolts. But moving maximum CCW and then moving back CW still created different tensioner tightness that after 2 revolutions. Hence the reason for my modified re-pinning where I purposefully tightened the crank pulley where it would barely not fit into the pin hole. And after 2 revolutions it would be a perfect fit. The normal procedure always produced same effect. After 5 attempts, I had to adjust the technique as to how I pinned when tensioner is not properly slacked and once I started to move crank CW only, then the tensioner slack was correct and pins fit. That was my goal and that was repetitive x 3 where after 3 double crank rotations, both crank and cam pins would fit perfectly, and that was a perfect job. HPFP did not fit, but was very close.
 

iaiadimon

Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2023
Location
Canada
TDI
Passat 2005 , 2013 , 2015
Yes you need VCDS. I’m not first who read information about position camshaft and after make adjusting. 1st connect VCDS, go to engine. Go to Block measuring . Activate group 004 and check parameters « torsion value « they can be from minus to positive numbers. We need to make them 0. After you loose 3 bolts on the sprocket and mouve left or right. And again check camshaft position . Internet full of vidéo how make camshaft adjusting using VCDS. Good luck
 

x1800MODMY360x

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 27, 2021
Location
AZ, USA
TDI
2013 Passat TDI SEL
Yes you need VCDS. I’m not first who read information about position camshaft and after make adjusting. 1st connect VCDS, go to engine. Go to Block measuring . Activate group 004 and check parameters « torsion value « they can be from minus to positive numbers. We need to make them 0. After you loose 3 bolts on the sprocket and mouve left or right. And again check camshaft position . Internet full of vidéo how make camshaft adjusting using VCDS. Good luck
On UDS ECU, you can't get into measuring blocks.
 

iaiadimon

Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2023
Location
Canada
TDI
Passat 2005 , 2013 , 2015
Thanks Veteran, it’s true. So open VCDS go to engine, Go to advance measuring, from the list take « Camshaft adaptation intake Bank1 « and look on the actual value. After you can make adjusting camshaft sprocket. ( it’s not so easy catch this moment when you need 0) I make tool to push sprocket : two flat metal bar , drill 3 holy 2 big bolt with nuts for sprocket one small bolt with nuts for top to connect 2 bar together
 

Will27

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 25, 2017
Location
New Zealand
TDI
'06 Golf TDI, '08 Caddy TDI, '13 Passat Alltrack
Will, you're absolutely right. But you have to turn the engine CCW when you are adjusting the timing if your crank hole is to the right when you cam is locked. Once you do your 2 clockwise turns, then you try to fit the pins and they do not fit after you locked the crank, the procedure has you remove crank lock, move the crankshaft until the camshaft pin fits, then you have to loosen camshaft sprocket and decide where you need to move crankshaft to re-pin it. In my case, crankshaft was always off the hole to the right. Which requires crankshaft to be moved clockwise up to max camshaft window allowance, then move back clockwise until pin would enter the hole. You cannot tighten from camshaft when you loosened your 3 bolts. But moving maximum CCW and then moving back CW still created different tensioner tightness that after 2 revolutions. Hence the reason for my modified re-pinning where I purposefully tightened the crank pulley where it would barely not fit into the pin hole. And after 2 revolutions it would be a perfect fit. The normal procedure always produced same effect. After 5 attempts, I had to adjust the technique as to how I pinned when tensioner is not properly slacked and once I started to move crank CW only, then the tensioner slack was correct and pins fit. That was my goal and that was repetitive x 3 where after 3 double crank rotations, both crank and cam pins would fit perfectly, and that was a perfect job. HPFP did not fit, but was very close.
IMO would do this one of these ways (of course you got your engine in time, just for discussion)

Where the manual says to turn the Crank back, I think it better use the T10172 tool or metalnerd equivalent and turn the engine CCW from the cam sprocket. The Cam sprocket is loose at this point and can rotate on its hub, so it achieves the same thing (moving the Crank CCW) but without moving the slack to the wrong side of the belt. I guess the manual's method would work if you turn the crank CCW far enough that when you turn it CW again, there is enough movement for the slack in the belt to sort itself out again... but why bother with all that?

The way I do it is when rotating the crank 2 times CW, don't overshoot TDC of the crank - stop when the crank pin sides in perfectly or when the pin just rubs the back side of the hole lightly. Then, if you can't slide the Cam and HPFP pins in, loosen the Cam and HPFP sprocket bolts and nudge the Cam and HPFP into position by their centre hub bolts and tighten. Should be good now! A lot less getting up and down too if your're working on jack stands etc. Rotate the crank from below into position, then adjust from the top.
 

locos

Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2023
Location
Yorkshire
TDI
TDI
Hi their guys I'm having this same issue everytime my timing is done the car starts fine drives for a while then when you turn off the engine and try starting it just cranks eventually starts on 4th 5th 6th attempt. Showing crankshaft and camshaft codes. Seems like timing keeps moving slightly causing it to not start first attempt. Can anyone help sort this issue.
 

locos

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Nov 15, 2023
Location
Yorkshire
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TDI
Hi their guys I'm having this same issue everytime my timing is done the car starts fine drives for a while then when you turn off the engine and try starting it just cranks eventually starts on 4th 5th 6th attempt. Showing crankshaft and camshaft codes. Seems like timing keeps moving slightly causing it to not start first attempt. Can anyone help sort this issue.
I've have the timing adjusted atleast 4 times in past few days drives and starts fine a dozen times then its back to the same issue.
 

iaiadimon

Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2023
Location
Canada
TDI
Passat 2005 , 2013 , 2015
If timing you put by lock points for crankshaft, camshaft and High présure pump . And after twice turns crankshaft without trouble . Only air in the diesel fuel line can affect on the hard start. 1st method with program activate pump and delete air. 2-nd method from old school , use marine vacuum pump connect to return line near filter and delete air from fuel line
 

CKRATDI

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Joined
Jan 19, 2022
Location
Kansas
TDI
2014 B7 Passat TDI CKRA Se limited Edition Sport- DSG-full deletes
I've have the timing adjusted atleast 4 times in past few days drives and starts fine a dozen times then its back to the same issue.
Hey so I started this thread because I had this issue. Did this happen to you after doing a timing belt job? Also you shouldn't have to worry about air in the fuel system if you didn't take off any fuel lines. If I remember correctly when this happened to me it was because my hpfp sprocket wasn't lined up. After I got that it was fine. Theres a pin hole behind the sprocket you got to line up and hold it, it's a little tricky. I would make sure you have all the proper tools to do this and restart the whole process, watch a video a few times. I had to re do the process like 10 times and it became very overwhelming and stressful. Make sure to be careful with the Allen key on the tensioner, when you tension it multiple times it can strip out pretty easy. Also you really need to have the Crank tool for this and it helps to have the cam tool. When it runs good has hard starts like this you have the timing really close but not good enough. I recommend NOT driving the car until you get it running right. Fire it up repeatedly and make sure it's starting properly each time, if it's still hard starting then don't bother trying to run the car or drive it. It could only be bad for it. Many will say it doesn't matter if that hpfp sprocket is lined up but for me it fixed the issue, but at the same time make sure you just re do the whole process, using the came pins and Crank locks. Make sure you have a professional video to refer to
 

locos

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Nov 15, 2023
Location
Yorkshire
TDI
TDI
Thanks guys for your advice. I woul like to add I think I have a different issue as when the vehicle is cold it starts no issues first time. But once the vehicle is warm that's when I get issues it's not a hard start it just keeps cranking so I Turn on an off after 4 to 5 attempts it fires up. Also my glow plug light is flashing code that cannot be removed is coolant temperature sensor on radiator outlet. I have changed the sensor still no good. I'm thinking now maybe it's an electrical issue with my car. Now it's morning I started the car fired up first time no issues but once its warmed up that's when I get issues.
 

CKRATDI

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Joined
Jan 19, 2022
Location
Kansas
TDI
2014 B7 Passat TDI CKRA Se limited Edition Sport- DSG-full deletes
If you were doing a timing beltjob then I'd suspect there is nothing at fault other than the timing of the engine since that was the only change taking place but you did you clarify if you were doing a timing belt change? Was it running fine before doing s timing belt? If there's random codes I'd disregard them if changing the timing belt caused this, it can cause many codes but none of them are going to help much in this situation. Make sure you have the cam pins Crank pins and proper tools to get everything lined up perfect or it's not going to run right
 

CKRATDI

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Jan 19, 2022
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Kansas
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2014 B7 Passat TDI CKRA Se limited Edition Sport- DSG-full deletes
If you were doing a timing beltjob then I'd suspect there is nothing at fault other than the timing of the engine since that was the only change taking place but you did you clarify if you were doing a timing belt change? Was it running fine before doing s timing belt? If there's random codes I'd disregard them if changing the timing belt caused this, it can cause many codes but none of them are going to help much in this situation. Make sure you have the cam pins Crank pins and proper tools to get everything lined up perfect or it's not going to run right
Mine did the same thing with the timing off, it'd start and run fine, but if I turned the engine off and immediately tried to restart it could take a bunch of attempts then suddenly it'd randomly start fine
 

locos

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Nov 15, 2023
Location
Yorkshire
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TDI
The vehicle suddenly started misfiring and all the light on the dash was on so I stopped and took the timing cover off and realised the belt was a little loose and I could swing the top small guider by hand. I got the vehicle recovered. Upon further diagnosis found the tensioner had collapsed. Replaced with new kit and studs (the tensioner stud was tight and the thread was good). Prior to all this happening the glow plug and eml was on anyway showing temp sensor. After fitting the belt with all relevant timing tools. Started vehicle drove fine for 4 to 5 day. On the 6th day it started with the issue of not starting when turned off. After a couple of attempts it does start. Checked timing cam an hpfp pins did not line up very slightly out so timed up again with relevant Vw tools. Cranked straight away on the first few cold starts. Then drove for a while once car warms up it starts giving the issue again.

I suspect its another issue maybe electrical.
Just wondered if anyone else had this issue.
 

CKRATDI

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 19, 2022
Location
Kansas
TDI
2014 B7 Passat TDI CKRA Se limited Edition Sport- DSG-full deletes
The vehicle suddenly started misfiring and all the light on the dash was on so I stopped and took the timing cover off and realised the belt was a little loose and I could swing the top small guider by hand. I got the vehicle recovered. Upon further diagnosis found the tensioner had collapsed. Replaced with new kit and studs (the tensioner stud was tight and the thread was good). Prior to all this happening the glow plug and eml was on anyway showing temp sensor. After fitting the belt with all relevant timing tools. Started vehicle drove fine for 4 to 5 day. On the 6th day it started with the issue of not starting when turned off. After a couple of attempts it does start. Checked timing cam an hpfp pins did not line up very slightly out so timed up again with relevant Vw tools. Cranked straight away on the first few cold starts. Then drove for a while once car warms up it starts giving the issue again.

I suspect its another issue maybe electrical.
Just wondered if anyone else had this issue.
You may not agree but this is my opinion. It sounds like initially your tensioner went bad and possibly jumped timing, either way it caused it to go out of time which resulted in the misfiring and not running correctly. You did a timing belt kit and that did not fix the issue, I think that the car is just still out of time and needs tweaked because this was the initial issue caused when your tensioner was bad so I don't think it's anything but the timing because of your situation. I don't think that you would simultaneously have an electrical issue or some other issue coincidentally at the same time your tensioner went bad, that's just my opinion. When I had timing issues I swore I had it all timed perfectly but it was my first timing belt job and I didn't have it done perfect. I would make sure your cam sprocket still lines up with the hole (after) the tensioner is tightened. So all you got to check not is put the Crank at TDC and see if your cam pin will go in and if it doesn't then the timing is off
 

locos

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Nov 15, 2023
Location
Yorkshire
TDI
TDI
Thanks mate I agree it could be ill be checking it again this Sunday. Been using the vehicle and it been driving perfect just when you turn it off an come to start it, it takes a couple of attempts.
 
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