Solar thread

[pkhoury]

Not quite general automotive, but thought I'd start one on solar. I know a lot of us have questions on solar. I've asked another member questions on solar, only to be told I need to go to XYZ company's site and buy a flatbed truck's worth of pallets, with no instruction on hooking them up, much less ask what I need it for. Thus, I figured we could use a thread to discuss our own experiences with solar at home.

 

[Mongler98]

How does this have anytjing to do with general automotive?
This is just going to be another bio vs EV thread again! I may direct you to other forums about EV or solar. I dont see why we need to continue these threads here on this site!

 

[nwdiver]

How does this have anytjing to do with general automotive?
This is just going to be another bio vs EV thread again! I may direct you to other forums about EV or solar. I dont see why we need to continue these threads here on this site!

No you do not. You spent so much money buying, earning that money , and having somone install and make it..... that the amount that you save..... is just passed down from consumeritus.
The energy you put back into the grid is not a pay back to the grid. It's a buy back at a loss.
All it means is you over spend!

Broaden your horizons a little.

And generally... no... solar exports are not bought back at a loss. Due to higher natural gas prices wholesale electricity has been running ~$0.30/kWh here from 4pm to 7pm. Xcel buys my surplus for ~$0.05/kWh up from $0.02 before the surge in natural gas. Pretty good deal for everyone. I spent ~$12k installing my PV system 9 years ago and it's produced ~160,000kWh saving me ~$16,000 and it still has >20 years of useful life left. I'd say investing $12k to save ~$50k is a pretty decent deal.

 

[Mongler98]

Broaden your horizons a little.

And generally... no... solar exports are not bought back at a loss. Due to higher natural gas prices wholesale electricity has been running ~$0.30/kWh here from 4pm to 7pm. Xcel buys my surplus for ~$0.05/kWh up from $0.02 before the surge in natural gas. Pretty good deal for everyone. I spent ~$12k installing my PV system 9 years ago and it's produced ~160,000kWh saving me ~$16,000 and it still has >20 years of useful life left. I'd say investing $12k to save ~$50k is a pretty decent deal.

I'm not going to read your bs or bother responding any more to you. Believe it or not you are the first person to make me use the ignore feature here.

 

[nwdiver]

I'm not going to read your bs or bother responding any more to you. Believe it or not you are the first person to make me use the ignore feature here.

ok. Enjoy your echo chamber freed from the confines of reality It is telling how you think straight up numbers are 'BS'....

 

[turbobrick240]

How does this have anytjing to do with general automotive?
This is just going to be another bio vs EV thread again! I may direct you to other forums about EV or solar. I dont see why we need to continue these threads here on this site!

I don't see the problem if some members are interested in solar installations. If it's not a topic that interests you, then you don't have to read or comment. Kvetching like an angry old woman contributes nothing.

 

[Vwkaferman]

My thing with solar in my eyes is ROI. Now if it was $12,000 for a system like mentioned before I’d probably be on board but it’s not that affordable anymore. Probably looking more like $25,000. Take that same $25,000 and invest over the same span (20 years?) and with compound interest with NO extra contributions with 6% interest you’re looking at $80,000 something dollars.

How long would it take for me to realize those gains with solar (in savings)?

Don’t get me wrong, nothing would make me happier to be able to disconnect from the grid, have battery backup, dig a well (I’m in the county so it’s possible) and middle finger these crooks.

Until it becomes more affordable, I’m out.

James

 

[nwdiver]

My thing with solar in my eyes is ROI. Now if it was $12,000 for a system like mentioned before I’d probably be on board but it’s not that affordable anymore.

You can get panels for ~$0.50/w (< $0.30/w if you get lucky with a deal) An inverter is ~$0.13/w. The racking runs ~$0.15/w and misc wire etc ~$0.05/w. Call it ~$0.65 - $0.85 per watt. A 10kW (~15,000kWh/yr) system is all most people need. If you're thrifty that's ~$6,500 - $8500. The $12k was 9 years ago when panels were ~$1/w. So with DIY it will pay for itself in < 4 years. Even turnkey for $25k has a ROI of ~10 years. No, that's not as good as the stock market but there's something to be said for diversification.

 

[pkhoury]

You can get panels for ~$0.50/w (< $0.30/w if you get lucky with a deal) An inverter is ~$0.13/w. The racking runs ~$0.15/w and misc wire etc ~$0.05/w. Call it ~$0.65 - $0.85 per watt. A 10kW (~15,000kWh/yr) system is all most people need. If you're thrifty that's ~$6,500 - $8500. The $12k was 9 years ago when panels were ~$1/w. So with DIY it will pay for itself in < 4 years. Even turnkey for $25k has a ROI of ~10 years. No, that's not as good as the stock market but there's something to be said for diversification.

Me personally - I have panels from government auctions. I'm looking to start small, with existing equipment, before I even consider branching out. Sadly, a lot of how-to sites seem to be clandestine adverts for supplies looking to sell me pallets of panels and $1.5K inverters. The panels I have are Kyocera and some other brands (that I think were actually US made). None of these panels are Chinese. I might sadly just relegate most of the panels to just keeping some 12v car batteries charged, to power both my electric gate, and two railroad crossings I'd like to setup on both sides of the gate (lights would flash whenever the gate is open, thanks to a magnetic switch, with a switch to allow the bells to be on or off).

There's been a lot of mention of DIY, while I relish DIY projects, my back/neck is in no shape to be hanging heavy commercial panels without assistance, let alone no knowledge of what I'm doing.

For a professionally installed installation, my complaint is also ROI. I'm with @Vwkaferman - even in this economic slump, some of my retirement accounts are still seeing like 6% returns annually.

But back to the thread itself - if someone wants to start small, would building your own LifePO4 or Lithium Ion/Polymer pack be more feasible? I tried connecting a bunch of 12V junkyard batteries in parallel. I sadly learned that it wouldn't effectively run a 12V to 120V 150w inverter longer than a few hours, due in part to crappy batteries of unequal life.

 

[nwdiver]

Sadly, a lot of how-to sites seem to be clandestine adverts for supplies looking to sell me pallets of panels and $1.5K inverters.

Noted. If I see any great deals I'll be sure to keep it to myself lest I be confused for a 'clandestine advert' FYI: ~$0.30/w is what qualifies as a 'great deal' for solar panels these days. If you see anything please post it, always looking for a good deal

If all you want to do is charge a 12v battery then just buy a MPPT charge controller. I've seen lots of great deals on those.

 

[turbobrick240]

I appreciate the links to suppliers of bargain price panels and miscellaneous equipment. I'm able to DIY, so the savings is very significant. The electricity rates here in Maine are high, and getting higher, so ROI is fairly short. Energy independence also has a value to me that doesn't show up in ROI calculations. Spent part of the day today clearing an area to expand my ground mount installation.

 

[pkhoury]

Noted. If I see any great deals I'll be sure to keep it to myself lest I be confused for a 'clandestine advert'

Nobody wants to figure out how to actually hook up solar, only to find said site is just an advertisement for parts, without telling you, without pressure, what you need to buy, what does what how to configure, how to physically install, etc.

FYI: ~$0.30/w is what qualifies as a 'great deal' for solar panels these days. If you see anything please post it, always looking for a good deal

If all you want to do is charge a 12v battery then just buy a MPPT charge controller. I've seen lots of great deals on those.

I do, but I'm feeling like a small array of 12V batteries might not be the way to go. LifePO4 is a lot more than Li Ion, but I don't know how long they last in comparison to the former, among other considerations.

 

[turbobrick240]

Both ternary(NMC, NCA) and LFP lithium ion will outlast lead acid. LFP is cheaper and generally longer lived than ternary. Lots of good YouTube vids of folks putting together LFP battery banks. Most of them are guys putting together off grid setups. Hard to beat the grid as a bottomless battery though. Especially when the utilities pay or credit for excess generation.

 

[Mozambiquer]

I find solar intriguing and had also looked into it previously, but with the electric prices we have it would take a long time to get anywhere close to breaking even. My current electric price is 0.0772 per kWh and I use an average of 1300 kWh per month, making the annual cost of my used electricity average about $1200. Say $1500 to round it up. If I could get a setup for $15,000 it would take ten years to break even if I could produce enough to only use the solar power.
Our power comes from a hydroelectric dam, so it's green energy as well as the lake providing plenty of tourism as well.
Btw, I want to be clear, I am not in any way anti alternative energy. I find it rather intriguing, but I also try to gauge practicality for my needs.

 

[turbobrick240]

I find solar intriguing and had also looked into it previously, but with the electric prices we have it would take a long time to get anywhere close to breaking even. My current electric price is 0.0772 per kWh and I use an average of 1300 kWh per month, making the annual cost of my used electricity average about $1200. Say $1500 to round it up. If I could get a setup for $15,000 it would take ten years to break even if I could produce enough to only use the solar power.
Our power comes from a hydroelectric dam, so it's green energy as well as the lake providing plenty of tourism as well.
Btw, I want to be clear, I am not in any way anti alternative energy. I find it rather intriguing, but I also try to gauge practicality for my needs.

But after that 10 year payback period you'd be getting another 10-15 years of FREE electricity. There are unknown variables, of course. Like how much rates might go up or down (most likely up), how the utilities could change the way they credit for excess power fed into the grid, freak weather events that may or may not be insured against, etc. But everyone I know that has installed PV, including myself, is overwhelmingly pleased with the results.

 

[vandermic07]

I find solar intriguing and had also looked into it previously, but with the electric prices we have it would take a long time to get anywhere close to breaking even. My current electric price is 0.0772 per kWh and I use an average of 1300 kWh per month, making the annual cost of my used electricity average about $1200. Say $1500 to round it up. If I could get a setup for $15,000 it would take ten years to break even if I could produce enough to only use the solar power.

I'm in the same boat. we pay $.12. I need a large system to go "net 0" with enough to cover my fixed charges. I was looking at a 11 yr ROI, if I remember my numbers correctly. Then you start talking batteries

 

[nwdiver]

I'm in the same boat. we pay $.12. I need a large system to go "net 0" with enough to cover my fixed charges. I was looking at a 11 yr ROI, if I remember my numbers correctly. Then you start talking batteries

I'm always a little confused by the 'net 0' mindset. For some reason saving $100 on a $100 electric bill is worth more than saving $100 on a $200 electric bill. $100 is $100. If you don't want to buy batteries then don't buy batteries. >95% of PV systems don't have batteries. SMA even offers something called SPS 'Secure Power Supply' that gives you ~2kW of power off-grid without batteries.

Are you taking rising electric rates into account for that 11yr ROI? With natural gas prices surging we're probably going to see an unprecedented increase in the cost of electricity over the next 5 years. There are also some financing options available structured so your loan payment is less than your savings. If you're saving ~$100/mo on your electric bill and paying $95/mo on the loan then it 'pays for itself' on day 1. Our electrician bundled his solar panels into his mortgage.

 

[vandermic07]

My fixed costs in my electric bill are $41 out of my avg $100 per month bill. I would save $59 per month with a system that produces a "guaranteed" 15 kwh per day on avg. (5320kwh/yr)

"variable usage 0"
What would this system cost me DIY? about $9K for a 5.8kw kit + hardware, lets say $10k total ( I did a quick sizing on Enphase says i need 4.2kw system). Thats $10,000/$59= 169 mo or 14 yrs ROI. but is still pay $41 in fixed costs.

"Net 0"
What would this system cost me DIY? about $15K for a 7.2kw kit + hardware, lets say $17k total ( I did a quick sizing on Enphase says I need 6.7kw system). Thats $17,000/$100= 170 mo or 14 yrs ROI. That's if i get penny for penny on my generation to sell back to e-company.

Plus I want to add batteries.

I know I could shop around and get stuff cheaper but my ROI is not getting to 5 yrs. I am not taking out a loan on my house. I will move at the speed of cash.

These systems don't add any value to the house in our area. Everyone that I know that has solar here are disappointed in the performance of them and they are professionally installed. They all took out $25-40K loans and the systems aren't paying off near the projected rate. and they still pay an electric bill.

 

[Mongler98]

99% of these systems actually take value from the home. It's another maintenance thing. Unless the house was a 0e build with foam walls and this was built in when it was constructed... it's a buyers repellant just like a custom plumbing or geo. It's a maintenance headache for anyone not knowledgeable how to use DIY or not interested in diy maintenance.

 

[nwdiver]

My fixed costs in my electric bill are $41 out of my avg $100 per month bill. I would save $59 per month with a system that produces a "guaranteed" 15 kwh per day on avg. (5320kwh/yr)

"variable usage 0"
What would this system cost me DIY? about $9K for a 5.8kw kit + hardware, lets say $10k total ( I did a quick sizing on Enphase says i need 4.2kw system). Thats $10,000/$59= 169 mo or 14 yrs ROI. but is still pay $41 in fixed costs.

"Net 0"
What would this system cost me DIY? about $15K for a 7.2kw kit + hardware, lets say $17k total ( I did a quick sizing on Enphase says I need 6.7kw system). Thats $17,000/$100= 170 mo or 14 yrs ROI. That's if i get penny for penny on my generation to sell back to e-company.

Plus I want to add batteries.

I know I could shop around and get stuff cheaper but my ROI is not getting to 5 yrs.

So don’t go with EnPhase. The only thing micro inverters are good at is jacking the cost of a system.

You can EASILY DIY a 6.7kW system for <$6k.

 

[03TDICommuter]

Meanwhile I'm getting screwed paying $0.326 per KWh, and that's only using 540 KWh per month. WTH California! I want to go solar, but I don't think I'll be in this house in 5 years to get the system payback. Plus they're screwing with net metering, paying less than what they charge you. Lastly they're talking about charging a connection fee just for the priviledge of being hooked. If anything, I'd like to peel a portion of the house off to be completely solar, no grid intertie.

 

[DonL]

99% of these systems actually take value from the home. It's another maintenance thing. Unless the house was a 0e build with foam walls and this was built in when it was constructed... it's a buyers repellant just like a custom plumbing or geo. It's a maintenance headache for anyone not knowledgeable how to use DIY or not interested in diy maintenance.

I have had my solar for nine years now. It cost $ 20,000 and I got $ 7,000 in state and federal tax credits. No maintenance costs at all so far. It has paid for itself so I think the return on investment in Arizona is excellent. I suspect it works out quite well in Colorado also. Currently the federal tax credit is 26% of the cost and everyone considering solar should keep that in mind.

 

[vandermic07]

I should have been more clear. I only used Enphase for their calculator because it was really easy to use. The kits are from a different site and they are string inverter not micro. Solar edge kit 5.8W. How ever i did screw up the selection for the larger system. I accidently chose the wrong system that had batteries in it. So i found a Sunny Boy 7kW Kit for $11.3k.

Grid-tie Solar Kits - Solar Panel System Kits - Residential | NAZ Solar Electric

Our kits provide an easy way to get started with your grid-tie solar system. Grid-tie solar allows you the ability to generate electricity for your home while also being able to route any excess power back to the utility company for a profit.

www.solar-electric.com

"Net 0"
What would this system cost me DIY? about $11.3K for a 7kw kit + hardware, lets say $13k total Thats $13000/$100= 130 mo or 10.9 yrs ROI.

I know that i can still knock off a few grand if i price shop. Lets test nwdiver's cost for a 6.7 kw system. Not sure if this includes tax credits, power disconnect switch and mounting brackets, ......

6.7kw DIY sourced + hardware, lets say $6k total Thats $6000/$100= 60 mo or 5 yrs ROI.
That's STILL if i get penny for penny on my generation to sell back to e-company. Its probably more like .06/kWH.

That's more palatable but i would assume that i would need to oversize my system by another kW or 2. I had this all figured out 2 yrs ago in a spread sheet. I just have to find it again.

 

[nwdiver]

I should have been more clear. I only used Enphase for their calculator because it was really easy to use. The kits are from a different site and they are string inverter not micro. Solar edge kit 5.8W. How ever i did screw up the selection for the larger system. I accidently chose the wrong system that had batteries in it. So i found a Sunny Boy 7kW Kit for $11.3k.

Grid-tie Solar Kits - Solar Panel System Kits - Residential | NAZ Solar Electric

Our kits provide an easy way to get started with your grid-tie solar system. Grid-tie solar allows you the ability to generate electricity for your home while also being able to route any excess power back to the utility company for a profit.

www.solar-electric.com

"Net 0"
What would this system cost me DIY? about $11.3K for a 7kw kit + hardware, lets say $13k total Thats $13000/$100= 130 mo or 10.9 yrs ROI.

I know that i can still knock off a few grand if i price shop. Lets test nwdiver's cost for a 6.7 kw system. Not sure if this includes tax credits, power disconnect switch and mounting brackets, ......

6.7kw DIY sourced + hardware, lets say $6k total Thats $6000/$100= 60 mo or 5 yrs ROI.
That's STILL if i get penny for penny on my generation to sell back to e-company. Its probably more like .06/kWH.

That's more palatable but i would assume that i would need to oversize my system by another kW or 2. I had this all figured out 2 yrs ago in a spread sheet. I just have to find it again.

Kits generally don’t save save you much money. I’d love to see how they’re adding that up to ~$1.60/w. That’s crazy for material costs. Our last 9.49kW job was ~$8k in materials and that’s with paying $0.50/w for panels. I’ve seen panels down to ~$0.30/w recently.

 

[vandermic07]

Yeah, I know its cheaper to buy it separate. It was quicker to show my situation by using a kit price. It is definitely cheaper than i remember 2 yrs ago when I first started looking. I still would like to do a system in the near future. hopefully it will be cheaper yet and faster payoff since rates are probably going up. it is in my 5yr plans to do this. I just need time to spec it all out. I just can't see having more than a 5yr ROI with batteries unless I cut off the grid completely.

Are there any brands to stay away from quality wise? Panels and inverters

 

[nwdiver]

Are there any brands to stay away from quality wise? Panels and inverters

I rarely use the same panels twice. They’re all built to the ~same standard. I wouldn’t say there are any inverter brands to ‘stay away from’. But some are significantly more expensive without much gained. My preference is SMA.

 

[Lug_Nut]

... Plus they're screwing with net metering, paying less than what they charge you.

I bought a tuna sandwich from a store yesterday because I was hungry. Today I brought back a tuna sandwich I made at home and wanted all my money back. They refused!

The power companies buy electricity at wholesale rates. Why do you feel they should buy yours for retail rates?
My town's municipal electric company (town owned and operated as a not-for-profit) does not have net metering specifically for this reason.
If I were to enter a contract and guarantee to provide a specific amount of power on demand they'd consider me as another of their suppliers and pay me a negotiated wholesale rate for the power I produce for them.
Till then, I'm a consumer
of electricity
and tuna sandwiches.

 

[Mongler98]

I bought a tuna sandwich from a store yesterday because I was hungry. Today I brought back a tuna sandwich I made at home and wanted all my money back. They refused!

The power companies buy electricity at wholesale rates. Why do you feel they should buy yours for retail rates?
My town's municipal electric company (town owned and operated as a not-for-profit) does not have net metering specifically for this reason.
If I were to enter a contract and guarantee to provide a specific amount of power on demand they'd consider me as another of their suppliers and pay me a negotiated wholesale rate for the power I produce for them.
Till then, I'm a consumer
of electricity
and tuna sandwiches.

100% best way I have heard it said.

Only 2 people exist in this world. The ones who can afford to invest the value of a new car into saving $ on things like electrical supply after a 10 year pay back ... and thos who have enough money that dlnt care! Or dont have the money and still just dont care.

I see people argue over buying cheaper gas or trying to save $ on things like solar or bio diesel. Then they either wip out a cigarette and start smoking a $10 a pack addiction or scratch off a lottery ticket or something else stupid and wastefull with $

If you actually cared about saving $ or making $ you usually don't bother with crappy payouts like solar savings. You invest in properties or stocks etc...

 

[nwdiver]

I bought a tuna sandwich from a store yesterday because I was hungry. Today I brought back a tuna sandwich I made at home and wanted all my money back. They refused!

Shall we count the ways that fails as an argument?

1- There is no tuna sandwich monopoly. Utilities are regulated monopolies. I can start a tuna sandwich shop but it’s actually illegal to sell electricity to my neighbors with an extension cord. That’s why PURPA was passed into law in the 70s.

2- The retail rate you pay is an average. Even rates that vary are averages. Numerous studies have been done on the economics of Net Metering and at present solar adoption rates it’s a net subsidy to NON-solar owners. The average value to the utility is MORE than the retail credit they give! Coincident peak is typically ~4-7pm when there is still sun. Think of TX last winter when wholesale was as high as $9/kWh. Retail credit was a steal!

3- No one is suggesting net metering will work forever. Obviously if everyone has solar no one is paying for the grid. If a surcharge is added to coal and gas generated electricity to cover the external costs I would be fine with cost avoided credit (Which would actually be HIGHER than ‘net metering’ for many people)

 

[dhangejr]

this thread is funny…

I thought solar was about reducing carbon emissions? Musk says In the BIG picture EV and solar Would reduce carbon emissions. I mean duh, BUT it’s too late? I know several years ago there was a thing called a Tesla battery that was supposed to be cheap. I don’t hear much about it these days. But the idea was it everybody’s house was going to be covered in solar panels and they have their own battery in it. And then your car charging would be free. Then again we have to buy more copper nickel cobalt and silver? So the manufacturing of the solar panels what will that do to the earths systems? this one better than the other? His life just a simulation? Can I get a reset button? Nope it’s too late!

So some will suffer the change, others will be forced to change, and others will blindly follow. The us still gets 60% of its power from burning coal. Here in Washington they are decommissioning dams, and one of the local power agencies just had a company put a bid in for a proposal bit of nuclear power plant. Apparently for the big power company‘s solar panels just don’t do it.

Yet, they do charge a lot of money for their power, and as I mentioned here in my state dams are being decommissioned and in three more years the contract that Washington gets the majority of their power from will be expiring. And then California will be bidding on that same power a majority of which actually comes from a company out of Idaho. The Bonneville power company. They recently decommission their largest power providing damn. So, the people of Washington are about to see an increase in power, and so are the people in Idaho.

If you don’t like paying monthly bills, in the long run buying a bunch of solar panels might pay off, but just like a car you have to think about maintenance. So, is buying a TDI for $5000 saving you money over the next five years versus buying $1000 Honda or Saturn? I say no probably not for most people, definitely not for me unless I go see my dad every month.

Also, I read in this thread that solar Diminishes the value of a hime and that is simply not too. As an appraiser I can tell you that it addd a complexity to a report but unless I have or any other inspector a reason to believe the system has failed it adds value to the hime. How much is very hard to calculate snd is derived form a multitude of different factors depending on market area and trends. However it does NOT devalue your home. Does it add the 30 years savings value to a 3 fixed mortgage claimed in this thread ? Not even close but then again “upgrads” rarely add their cost to the homes value, kinda like a car….