Timing belt failure... need some advise

[bstrozr1]

Long story short... timing belt teeth stripped and towed the car to the shop. I don't want to buy a new used beater car due to insane car prices and feel its better to just rebuild.

So far, we have done the water pump and timing belt and the car makes compression and will run. We found that the cam needs to be replaced so I have purchased a colt cam and everything for that... do I need to tear the motor down further or am I good to go?

 

[TurboABA]

Not sure what you're asking.
What "problem" would you be addressing by "tearing down the motor" or what would you be trying to rectify?
Replacing the cam either indicates a poorly looked after engine, or a very high milage unit, or both.
It runs, but does it have the correct compression or just enough to run?
Need a lot more details about what you're faced with and what you're trying to fix so that people can make proper suggestions.
I assume we are talking about a BRM?

 

[DivineChaos]

Long story short... timing belt teeth stripped and towed the car to the shop. I don't want to buy a new used beater car due to insane car prices and feel its better to just rebuild.

So far, we have done the water pump and timing belt and the car makes compression and will run. We found that the cam needs to be replaced so I have purchased a colt cam and everything for that... do I need to tear the motor down further or am I good to go?

Worst case you need another head. Best case just a valve job.

 

[DivineChaos]

If you had any valve contact you squished a valve. If you don't check to make sure. You'll drop a valve within 30k. Have the head checked

 

[bstrozr1]

If you had any valve contact you squished a valve. If you don't check to make sure. You'll drop a valve within 30k. Have the head checked

Thanks. I've heard that and just wanted to confirm with someone that is familiar with this repair. We have seen with the bore scope that there was contact and I don't want to rebuild it today and then rebuild it again in a month or two.

 

[bstrozr1]

Not sure what you're asking.
What "problem" would you be addressing by "tearing down the motor" or what would you be trying to rectify?
Replacing the cam either indicates a poorly looked after engine, or a very high milage unit, or both.
It runs, but does it have the correct compression or just enough to run?
Need a lot more details about what you're faced with and what you're trying to fix so that people can make proper suggestions.
I assume we are talking about a BRM?

BRM motors are notorious for cam failures. You replace cams every 60k miles if you buy OEM. But if you are someone who is familiar with timing belt failures you would know how deep to dive. Thats what I need.

 

[pedroYUL]

Check with @Franko6 , but I believe exhaust valves at the bare minimum are needed if timing was lost.
Did you check to see if the locking tools would line up when the new belt was put on?

 

[bstrozr1]

It's timed out ok. But I had heard that I needed to send the head off and get all the valves checked.

 

[TurboABA]

BRM motors are notorious for cam failures. You replace cams every 60k miles if you buy OEM. But if you are someone who is familiar with timing belt failures you would know how deep to dive. Thats what I need.

My bad.... I'll have to continue checking my crystal ball for all the details you're leaving out.
You smashed your valves and pistons, verified this with a boroscope, only replaced the TB and waterpump, are now replacing the CAM because it's a BRM and they all fail (not because you probably put holes in lifters due to mechanical interference instead of poor lubrication, incorrect oil spec, high milage, worn out lobes, etc.)

Regardless, I'm not familiar with any of this, especially the stuff you're not mentioning, so I'd say "you're good to go".
P.S. I don't how how anyone replaces the camS in a motor that only has one!

 

[bstrozr1]

My bad.... I'll have to continue checking my crystal ball for all the details you're leaving out.
You smashed your valves and pistons, verified this with a boroscope, only replaced the TB and waterpump, are now replacing the CAM because it's a BRM and they all fail (not because you probably put holes in lifters due to mechanical interference instead of poor lubrication, incorrect oil spec, high milage, worn out lobes, etc.)

Regardless, I'm not familiar with any of this, especially the stuff you're not mentioning, so I'd say "you're good to go".
P.S. I don't how how anyone replaces the camS in a motor that only has one!

I mean you still haven't offered any advice on what to look out for to aid what I have already mentioned. I am asking for help on what to look out for while I am diving into this problem. If I was aware of all the details I wouldn't be asking for help. If you don't want to help then don't. There are others out here who will

 

[pedroYUL]

It's timed out ok. But I had heard that I needed to send the head off and get all the valves checked.

It could be timed now, but was it timed correctly before you took it all apart? Some people do win the lottery and shred the TB without losing timing.

 

[TurboABA]

Return\sell your COLT and get this instead. That's my best suggestion based on what's been said thus far.

Cylinder Head, BRM BHW AMC – Cascade German Parts

www.cascadegerman.com

Cylinder Head Install Kit (A5 BRM)

IDParts Cylinder Head Install kit for the 2005.5-2006 MkV/A5 Jetta TDI with engine code BRM. Includes all the gaskets, bolts and seals required for reinstalling the cylinder head. Includes Head Bol...

www.idparts.com

 

[Vince Waldon]

To cut to the chase: these are interference engines and if they get even slightly out of time while rotating valve train damage occurs.

You have confirmed valve-piston contact with a scope...the head should come off and the valve train carefully inspected. Any valves that touched should go...lest they break on you later and grenade the block...making this a much more expensive issue than it already is.

 

[bstrozr1]

To cut to the chase: these are interference engines and if they get even slightly out of time while rotating valve train damage occurs.

You have confirmed valve-piston contact with a scope...the head should come off and the valve train carefully inspected. Any valves that touched should go...lest they break on you later and grenade the block...making this a much more expensive issue than it already is.

Thanks. Is there anything else I should look at while everything is torn down? I am planning on cleaning up the egr valve while it's out. Am I better off deleting it?

 

[oilhammer]

So many people take the time to respond with nonsense and unhelpful posts. Sorry for that.

I would take the head off and have it professionally checked, valves, etc. Quite often the impact of the valve(s) hitting the piston(s) will result in a bent (crunched, like an accordion) valve stem that causes the valve to break off a few thousand or a few hundred miles later even if the engine starts and runs now. And when that happens, it will do FAR more damage than has already been done.

Make sure that whatever neglect that caused the problem in the first place doesn't happen again.

 

[greengeeker]

So many people take the time to respond with nonsense and unhelpful posts. Sorry for that.

I would take the head off and have it professionally checked, valves, etc. Quite often the impact of the valve(s) hitting the piston(s) will result in a bent (crunched, like an accordion) valve stem that causes the valve to break off a few thousand or a few hundred miles later even if the engine starts and runs now. And when that happens, it will do FAR more damage than has already been done.

Make sure that whatever neglect that caused the problem in the first place doesn't happen again.

Holy hell. This. TurboABA, stop it.

 

[Rx7145]

Oilhammer is correct. The head needs to come off and get checked by a Machine shop.

 

[bstrozr1]

So many people take the time to respond with nonsense and unhelpful posts. Sorry for that.

I would take the head off and have it professionally checked, valves, etc. Quite often the impact of the valve(s) hitting the piston(s) will result in a bent (crunched, like an accordion) valve stem that causes the valve to break off a few thousand or a few hundred miles later even if the engine starts and runs now. And when that happens, it will do FAR more damage than has already been done.

Make sure that whatever neglect that caused the problem in the first place doesn't happen again.

Thanks. I'm getting ahold of a machine shop now.

And as far as the neglect... I thought timing belt change was 100k... lesson learned

 

[oilhammer]

100k yes, but if it is not done correctly, or completely, or something else fails along the way. Or if it gets a lot of short trips and lots of heat cycles. Tough to say, really. All the BRMs I regularly service go 100k miles no problem.

 

[bstrozr1]

Does anyone have any experience having a timing belt lose teeth on the cam shaft side? I still had teeth on the crank side. Also is there valve relief cut into the piston head? We are looking at everything and what is the possibility that it only skipped a tooth or two and didn't make contact? We think that we were looking at the valve relief. Also, the belt was still tight when it came in the shop. I just talked with my mechanic buddy (ex ford tech).

 

[jjblbi]

Search this site for Frank06 and reach out. He's well versed on BRM heads and can provide machining and rebuilding services. If and when you pull your injectors and they will be out of service for a while, store them soaking in diesel. Good luck, John

 

[pedroYUL]

Does anyone have any experience having a timing belt lose teeth on the cam shaft side? I still had teeth on the crank side. Also is there valve relief cut into the piston head? We are looking at everything and what is the possibility that it only skipped a tooth or two and didn't make contact? We think that we were looking at the valve relief. Also, the belt was still tight when it came in the shop. I just talked with my mechanic buddy (ex ford tech).

If this was my car, I would have checked timing before taking the old TB off. The easiest way to do that is by using the lockdown tools:

Metalnerd Timing Belt Tools (A5 BRM)

Kit of 5 specialty tools for changing the timing belt on TDI®Engine with codes BRM. Chassis include some 2005 and all 2006 Jetta® TDI. This newly updated kit now has the Universa...

www.idparts.com

See the purple one, that's the crank lock, and the big pin is the cam lock. If those two align, even with say a seized water pump, then the engine never lost timing.

If timing was not checked before taking the old belt off, I would either rebuild the head, or get a new one like TurboABA said.

 

[bstrozr1]

We didn't check timing before hand. But I was just thinking logically if by chance there was no contact and what we saw was valve relief and lost timing enough to lose compression it and just died. It's a big gamble. I guess you're right... just need to replace from the head down. It's only going to be a difference of about $1500. Can't by a car for that price and maybe I can sell the old head and get some money back.

 

[Sword_of_the_Spirit]

BRM motors are notorious for cam failures. You replace cams every 60k miles if you buy OEM. But if you are someone who is familiar with timing belt failures you would know how deep to dive. Thats what I need.

60k....stop with bad information. I've searched for many a time and haven't found a significant (more than 2) OEM that failed at or before 60k.

There are many running a PD BEW/BRM with 150k and up. I was one (BRM). Our BEW just hit 6 digits and is doing fine.

 

[bstrozr1]

Well from what I have read people change camshafts in the BRM more often than 6.0 ford's get head jobs.

 

[Sword_of_the_Spirit]

Well from what I have read people change camshafts in the BRM more often than 6.0 ford's get head jobs.

Of course, it’s THE most common repair item on a PD as their are very few other issues. Can you name something on the VE that’s common as well? As such, you’ll see that the most often in their category.

By and far, the original went out around 125-175k. After that, most never have an issue since they realized the error in oil quality. Then you have others that do an oil mod or mod the bearings on top of a cam replacement.

I’m pretty sure if they could fit an equivalent sized copy of a VW/Audi PD in a Ford knowing how reliable they are, I’m sure EVERY single owner would want one.

 

[Tdijarhead]

I saw one person mention it. Franko6 is the guy you should probably contact. You send him your head he sends you back a completely rebuild improved head with all the goodies to put everything back together. I believe he even rents the timing belt tools if you need them but if he doesn’t others do.

Franko6

forums.tdiclub.com

 

[pedroYUL]

... lost timing enough to lose compression it and just died...

Car died...head is done! Only way head could've stayed in timing is if you stopped the engine, and still a maybe.
BTW, those valves that impacted damaged their lifters. I've never had to rebuild a head, but I would compare the cost of Frank's service versus a new head, and go from there....but you do you

 

[bstrozr1]

Thanks. I think for the simplicity I will follow the advice from TurboABA and buy the head. Might still order the colt cam to be sure I dont have to tear it down the rest of the cars life. Car has 270k on it now. Want to hit 450k at least. Top end rebuild should help and just did clutch and flywheel a few months ago. Just won't miss the timing belt interval again.

 

[Franko6]

Long story short... timing belt teeth stripped and towed the car to the shop. I don't want to buy a new used beater car due to insane car prices and feel its better to just rebuild.

So far, we have done the water pump and timing belt and the car makes compression and will run. We found that the cam needs to be replaced so I have purchased a colt cam and everything for that... do I need to tear the motor down further or am I good to go?