Timing belt broke before scheduled replacement mileage. Fight for warranty, or SOL?
- Thread starter nick_va
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TurboABA
Top Post Dawg
You misunderstood my statement..... I know the stealership doesn't pay... the only time they "fight" customers on repairs is when they are too dumb to understand that it is covered under the AEM warranty, so they attempt to get the owner to pony up for the costs. They also love to have owners pay for stuff that's covered, since I suspect that there's some loophole that allows them to "double dip"..... or maybe it's just easier for them "clerically".
Lastly, they will never help me fight with VWoA
Lastly, they will never help me fight with VWoA
jokila
Vendor
I think the shop time is not as lucrative on warranty work. Plus, the dealerships have a rating on how much warranty work they incur. It's an incentive to not push things to warranty.
TurboABA
Top Post Dawg
Sure, I can see how all those things factor into the equation.... at the end of the day, it's still a biz and they want to make profits.... if experience tells them that they can barely break even on certain warranty jobs due to time restraints or warranty allotments, etc. they will obviously avoid taking on that work. When it's on the customer's wallet, they can easily add some stuff in there to con them out of more coin to cover any unforeseen\extra expenses ensuring that they make a profit.
Why else would most of them charge 1hr diagnostic fee when even our crappy enthusiast tools take less than 10min to do a complete scan on any of these vehicles "while taking out time".
Why else would most of them charge 1hr diagnostic fee when even our crappy enthusiast tools take less than 10min to do a complete scan on any of these vehicles "while taking out time".
ploverfield
Member
Hello - I am currently dealing with what sounds like a very similar situation in my 2015 Golf with a CRUA engine code. The timing belt broke and the timing skipped and there is catastrophic engine damage. The VWoA customer service advocate has also escalated my case to a regional service adviser but the advocate wasn’t guaranteeing anything and insisted that the timing belt (and leaking water pump) wasn’t covered by the warranty, including the long block train side of the warranty. Do you know what info you gave them or what made them ultimately decide to cover engine repair? Thanks very much!
Lug_Nut
TDIClub Enthusiast, Pre-Forum Veteran Member
- Joined
- Jun 20, 1998
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- Sterling, Massachusetts. USA
- TDI
- idi: 1988 Bolens DGT1700H, the other oil burner: 1967 Saab Sonett II two stroke
I see that as at least 7 years, as 84 months. Was that the original belt? What is the warranty duration, months and miles? What is the specified belt change interval, months and miles?
Is the water pump driven by the timing belt in the CRUA? If the determination is that a timing belt driven water pump failed, and that pump failure was what caused the timing belt to break, then you may be S.O.L. under an 'incidental or consequential' clause.
The pump might be covered, but the other stuff that was damaged as a consequence of the pump failing might not be.
Is the water pump driven by the timing belt in the CRUA? If the determination is that a timing belt driven water pump failed, and that pump failure was what caused the timing belt to break, then you may be S.O.L. under an 'incidental or consequential' clause.
The pump might be covered, but the other stuff that was damaged as a consequence of the pump failing might not be.
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nick_va
Member
If the car falls under Dieselgate, two key points to argue, IMO are:
1) (quoting TurboABA) Valve train means all components required for it to function.... not just the camshafts and valves, but the TB linking the crank to the cam and allowing the valves to "function\operate".
and
2) "All disputes should be resolved in the favor of the customer" (settlement warranty wording)
I basically stated these two things, then my case was escalated and later resolved satisfactorily (not mentioning two follow-up visits to address dead battery they dropped in the car along wit the new engine)
ToxicDoc
Veteran Member
What happened to your oil level, CEL, and battery issue after the engine was replaced?
ploverfield
Member
It was the original belt; the service interval is 8 years or 130,000 miles; my car has 69,589 miles. The extended warranty from the emissions settlement is for 162k miles. I have heard back from VWoA, the regional service manager denied the claim because the dealership said that the timing belt failure was caused by the water pump leaking on it. The dealership has only seen pictures of these parts, and initially claimed to me that it was "hard to say what the staining and residue on the water pump" was from, only to later tell VWoA with certainty that the water pump was leaking. But the mechanic who pulled the original timing belt, tensioner, and water pump out of my car said that the water pump was one problem, but the tensioner melting was what really caused the timing belt to break. VWoA is claiming that the water pump is not part of the long block, and denied the claim; when I brought up the "all claims resolved in favor of the customer," she said that that was only for stuff that was covered, which doesn't make sense.
I called a lemon lawyer who also works on warranty enforcement and he said that I needed to have someone argue convincingly against the dealership/VWoA that the water pump / timing tensioner need to be considered part of the long block, since the dealership / VWoA are clearly taking the angle that the damage to the timing belt is incidental. I cited the part of the warranty that @TurboABA mentioned back in 2021, that describes the coolant soaking the timing belt, so it shouldn't matter that it's incidental because it's still covered (?) and the VW rep just repeated that it wasn't covered. I think that the dealership / VWoA are focusing on the water pump because maybe it's harder to claim that that's part of the long block? I just don't know enough about engines. Would the water pump and/or the timing tensioner be considered part of the long block on a CRUA engine? Thanks!
ploverfield
Member
thanks for the info! Yeah sadly, I cited all these things and they still denied it. I don't know much about cars but I did my best to cite the info here... I guess I'll see what this warranty lawyer can help me with, but he said I would only have a case if the part is considered part of the long block. It's only my mechanic who says the tensioner caused the belt to fail; the dealership said that it's the water pump.
gearheadgrrrl
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2002
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- Buffalo Ridge (southwest Minnesota)
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- '15 Golf DSG, '13 JSW DSG surrendered to VW, '03 Golf 2 door manual
That "8 year or 130,000 miles" alleged timing belt service interval got me worried enough to check the manual in my 2015 TDI with 60K miles... The only mention I found for a service interval was 130K miles and no time limit is specified. The water pump is definitely part of the "long block"- Here's a link to VW's online parts book listing and illustration of a 2015 TDI long block, and it's definitely complete with even the covers and everything underneath: https://parts.vw.com/p/Volkswagen_2...GI-Engine-Long-Block/51237555/04L100033D.html . The water pump and and tensioner failures are probably caused by VW's programming these engines to run too hot to pass emissions, it's routine for these engines to run oil temperatures around 100 degrees centigrade! So do your research, build your case, and keep after VW!
BTW, I'm in southwest Minnesota- What dealer treated you so badly so I can avoid them?
BTW, I'm in southwest Minnesota- What dealer treated you so badly so I can avoid them?
ticaf
Veteran Member
I'd say 100deg C is normal. I don't think the emissions "fix" would cause the block to be hotter ( this is controlled by the thermostat).
I think it would be wise to have a better understanding of what caused the failure ( tensioner?, seized water pump?)
I think the problem is the dealer here. VWoA is going by the dealer's words. Try to talk to VWoA to see if you can arrange another VW tech to come have a look at the car. Offer to pay for that.
I think it would be wise to have a better understanding of what caused the failure ( tensioner?, seized water pump?)
I think the problem is the dealer here. VWoA is going by the dealer's words. Try to talk to VWoA to see if you can arrange another VW tech to come have a look at the car. Offer to pay for that.
TurboABA
Top Post Dawg
Keep fighting. Locate and read the extensive official documentation pertaining to warranty work and find things that you can use in it.
Volkswagen of America, Inc.
Warranty Policies and Procedures Manual
Volkswagen of America, Inc.
Warranty Policies and Procedures Manual
TurboABA
Top Post Dawg
Based on my 30sec browsing of the document, I'd ask whoever is arguing with me why the belt and pump are considered part of the block when standard powertrain warranty is discussed, but now all of a sudden, they are "separate" components or whatever they are claiming!
jokila
Vendor
Probably the same reason why brakes pads are technically part of the drivetrain, but are considered wear items.
ploverfield
Member
It's Luther Westside Volkswagen... It looks like they must be part of the same group as the Luther Brookdale! Thanks for sending this info. I'm having a hard time figuring out how to categorically show this as proof that they consider it part of the long block because of the way the info is presented. I see that the timing tensioner and water pump are listed as parts in the diagram for "CAMSHAFT & TIMING. CRANKSHAFT & BEARINGS. CYLINDER HEAD & VALVES. LUBRICATION. MOUNTS. PISTONS. RINGS & BEARINGS" which is listed on the page for the long block engine, but is that the same thing? I guess I don't understand why there are two different names, the "Engine Long Block" and the "CAMSHAFT..." I'm looking at this page: https://parts.vw.com/a/Volkswagen_2...ION-MOUNTS-PISTONS-RINGS--BEARIN/F51C040.html. I don't know much about cars, which is probably why I didn't make much headway with the regional service adviser!
ploverfield
Member
It's pretty wild... I cited the stuff you posted earlier in this thread and elsewhere, and specifically referenced the Warranty Policies and Procedures Manual's example of the water pump leaking onto the timing belt (p. 42) when I was talking to the regional service rep but she just kept repeating the same thing and eventually hung up on me and closed the case. We'll see what this lawyer can do for me...Based on my 30sec browsing of the document, I'd ask whoever is arguing with me why the belt and pump are considered part of the block when standard powertrain warranty is discussed, but now all of a sudden, they are "separate" components or whatever they are claiming!
ploverfield
Member
I think I understand now - it's the same diagram for the long block and for the "Camshaft...etc." I don't see the water pump among the parts listed numerically under the diagram; is the water pump somewhere on the diagram here (https://parts.vw.com/a/Volkswagen_2...ON-MOUNTS-PISTONS-RINGS--BEARIN/F51C040.html#) and I just don't know what it looks like? It sounds like based on what the mechanic says it isn't actually the water pump that is ultimately at fault but rather the tensioner, and I see that on the list here.
Thanks for your help!
gearheadgrrrl
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2002
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- Buffalo Ridge (southwest Minnesota)
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- '15 Golf DSG, '13 JSW DSG surrendered to VW, '03 Golf 2 door manual
Besides a bunch of other "stores", the Luther (dysfunctional) family of dealerships owns most of the VW store in the MSP Metro and Rochester too. West Side used to be pretty decent, but since Luther bought them it's been a long downhill slide. The water pump and tensioner are entirely within the long block and included in the long block. "Long block" is also well defined within the auto industry, it's an engine with all parts except external accessories like alternator, etc. and almost ready to bolt into the vehicle. Only the "short block" which is typically an engine without head(s), might come without a water pump but the tensioner would probably be included as it's part of the cam drive assembly.
IndigoBlueWagon
TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Having purchased a couple of VW OE long blocks, I can tell you with confidence that those long blocks do not include the water pump or timing belt components.
turbocharged798
Veteran Member
Yup, timing belt components are NOT part of the long block regardless of what people want to argue.
gearheadgrrrl
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2002
- Location
- Buffalo Ridge (southwest Minnesota)
- TDI
- '15 Golf DSG, '13 JSW DSG surrendered to VW, '03 Golf 2 door manual
It looks like VW is trying to get clever, Here's the wording from the settlement agreement:
"Additionally, the engine long block warranty shall cover the engine sub-assembly that consists of the assembled block, crankshaft, cylinder head, camshaft, and valve train."
Sounds like VW is trying to parse the wording in their favor, but timing belt and tensioner are definitely part of the valve train. And while a busted tensioner can definitely cause a timing belt failure, timing belts have had oil and coolant leaked on them for decades and usually still survive through their rated life. And given that this latest generation TDI's timing belts run in oil, coolant shouldn't be a problem.
"Additionally, the engine long block warranty shall cover the engine sub-assembly that consists of the assembled block, crankshaft, cylinder head, camshaft, and valve train."
Sounds like VW is trying to parse the wording in their favor, but timing belt and tensioner are definitely part of the valve train. And while a busted tensioner can definitely cause a timing belt failure, timing belts have had oil and coolant leaked on them for decades and usually still survive through their rated life. And given that this latest generation TDI's timing belts run in oil, coolant shouldn't be a problem.
ploverfield
Member
Thanks so much, this is really helpful! Yeah the language of the warranty is simultaneously vague and specific and I think that's why they are able to be so slippery. And that's some good context on the local VW dealerships... my mom has a Passat and I honestly think I'm just going to start taking her car to a good mechanic that I know rather than a dealership!