Just Bought Used TDI that was low on oil. Need some advice about getting motor flushed and as clean as possible.

Ford Guy

Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2021
Location
Colorado
TDI
2006 Jetta 4dr
Hello - I have never owned anything but a Ford with a Gasoline engine, so this is a real step outside of my comfort zone. But I cannot handle the fuel prices anymore and have always wondered about these TDI Engines so I finally bought one. Got a good deal on it, so was not too picky, but as soon as I got home and drained the oil I knew that it had not been well taken care of :*( Oil was almost 2 quarts low and did not seem too healthy. Not crunchy or grungy between the fingers, but very very dark and a little sludgy feeling. Also being that low, I can only assume it has not been changed in well over the recommended OEM intervals. I have already changed it with Valvoline 5-40 (the 505.01 European Version) and then changed it again at 1000 miles again to the same Valvoline oil. I then went 3000 more miles and changed just the filter but not the oil. My plan is to go maybe 2000 more miles or so and then use a good flush product ( maybe either a BG or Liqui-Moly product right before the oil change. At that point I am thinking I should be pretty comfortable to start using good oil and filter and maybe a decent additive and start going regular oil change intervals. Does anyone have any advice or other tips that I could do to make sure that the more is as clean as can be and should I pull the valve cover and do a lifter/cam inspection or anything like that? Or should I just start moving forward with regular type oil changes and intervals. Thoughts and suggestions would be greatly appreciated. The purpose of this car is long range commuting and I am hoping to get many many miles out of it and get as high of MPG as possible without too many modifications. Thanks in advance and I must admit that little drivetrain is mildly addictive to work on LOL :) Cheers
 

Tdijarhead

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Lawrenceville PA
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2003 TDI Jetta Daughters Car, 2001 TDI Beetle, Wife’s car, 2005 Golf TDI Mine, all 5 spds
Diesel oil is always black and compared to what your used to seeing coming from a gasoline engine it looks awful. That is normal. Being 2 quarts low probably means there is a leak somewhere. Check the intercooler boost piping behind the left front wheel. A small bit of oil residue and even a cupful of liquid oil in the low spot on the intercooler is acceptable. If on the other hand you open those pipes and find half or even a third of the missing oil your turbo is likely on the way out.

I agree it sounds as though the previous owner was neglectful. You may want to go over the car throughly. If he in fact was neglectful of oil changes that’s probably not all that needs attention.

The oil change interval on these cars is 10k miles, you really don’t need to do it more often, just be sure you use the correct oil and a proper high quality filter. No fram or other junk. It sounds like you’ve got a handle on fresh oil in the engine now, a flush is not going to make the oil any cleaner looking for more the a couple hundred miles. I’ve heard good things about BG so if you want to do it, I guess it probably won’t hurt.
 

Tdijarhead

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2003 TDI Jetta Daughters Car, 2001 TDI Beetle, Wife’s car, 2005 Golf TDI Mine, all 5 spds
Almost forgot, yes you should inspect the cam. The BRM engine had some cam issues, pulling the valve cover is a great way to check. When you pull the cover at first glance you’ll see an intimidating mass of metal. These PD engine have the injectors in the head and a rocker arm system to run them, the cam is buried at first glance if you’ve never seen one before.

Once you get your eyeballs on the cam you will be looking at the chamfer on the lobes. It wears off the tips first a very worn cam will have sharp edges on and near the tips. If the lobes are worn the lifters will be also. If a lobe is very worn and the engine has a slight tick while running it likely has a hole in the top of the corresponding lifter.

I just replace the cam in my 05 Golf with the BEW engine, they are not that hard to do. Make sure if you need to replace it that you use assembly lube and use a proper breakin oil and procedure.

 

Ford Guy

Member
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Aug 28, 2021
Location
Colorado
TDI
2006 Jetta 4dr
Sorry for the very very long post.

Thanks so much for the feedback. Yes I am familiar with the diesel oil being blacker then gasoline oil due to the sooty content of the diesel, but I guess when its your personal car you are much more affected by the specifics LOL :)

I have a 1000 mile commute for my primary job that I do 1 - 2 times a month, so I have lots of opportunity to play with different things (ideas suggestions?) and see what it does to mileage but so far, I am completely blown away by the mileage this car is getting even without any mods.

I did put 65 series tires on it instead of 60 or 55 series so they are like 1/2 inch taller, makes Speedometer about 2-3 miles an hour slow so tiny overdrive and always run 44 PSI, so im sure that has a small effect at least.

It had a K&N air filter in it when I got it, but after reading through this forum I have taken it out and thrown it away and put a standard Mann back in it since everyone seems to poo poo the K&N on these drivetrains. Something about the filter oil messing with the mass air sensor or a sensor downstream somewhere? Makes sense. Besides the K&N was not as deep as the stock filter so the stock filter I would suspect actually flows better anyways.

I am using the Fram Gold oil filter currently, with a couple Mann on the shelf for later. The Fram Gold is rated for 10k miles, but I am going to run 5k for at least the next 2 oil changes I think. I know peeps will laugh at me for changing it at half OEM, but I have always been a little crazy about oil. Even on Fords that are rated at 6000 miles for oil, I still change at 3500 even with Full Synthetic. Maybe its wasteful, but its also the life blood of the engine and letting oil go through my engine with the same filter for 10k just makes me cringe. Especially on this engine since its so famous for its very high lifter pressures and cam wear issues even with the correct oil and intervals. Maybe its rated for 10k and goes 500k+ with those intervals, but since its so cheap on fuel you can afford to change the oil at 5K, so why not? Also I am thinking the Liqui-Moly oil additive is only like $6 with rebates and such, so im thinking of working it into every other or maybe even every oil change.

I might consider just changing the filter at the 5k mark and then the oil at the 10k mark, but I guess I will base that on how the oil looks and feels after this next change. 3 oil changes in 4k miles is extremely excessive I know, but since I dont know the history of the car I figure better safe then sorry and I am hoping that it will help flush out any crap and grungi-ness left behind from previous owners neglect. I cant see ever going the full 10k, but maybe 6000 to 7500 once I am comfortable with the drive trains health. (besides I enjoy changing oil, so...)

Just as an FYI - I have gotten on my 1000 mile commutes so far the following mileages (90% freeway and very flat roads) :

First trip = 47 MPG round trip
Second Trip = 44 MPG round trip
Third trip = 49 MPG round trip
Fourth trip = 45 MPG round trip
Fifth trip = I am on it right now, but the halfway point shows around 46

( have not broke 50 MPG yet, but very much plan too :) )

I put the cruise on 80+ pretty much the whole trip so those are INSANE mileages considering the speeds im going. VERY happy so far and just want to keep the drivetrain as healthy as possible. These MPG are with the AC turned on, but that is a whole nother problem, the AC does not cool, so I dont think the AC compressor is taking anything away from the MPG at the moment.

Also - I am missing about half of the intake air box components. Didn't even realize it until I starting perusing this forum, but the primary air intake box is completely missing from the car. The air intake starts at the little duct that goes into the bottom of the air filter box. It points towards the passenger side and sits right in front of the driver side radiator fan. So basically the motor is eating hot air that comes straight out of the radiator fan and I am not 100% sure what parts are missing, but I know there are other air box components missing. However, since diesel engines get better mileage with warmer intake air temps anyways, I think I am ok with this arrangement for now since the primary purpose of this car is MPG. I mean we have all heard of a cold air intake, but what about a warm air intake for the MPG crowd LOL?

I also noticed the factory air box has a separating compartment in between the warmed exhaust air and the cooler intake air with a damper valve between them. Apparently the previous owner cut a small part of the partition away between them so the engine could breath through the entire filter all the time whether damper is closed or not, but not sure if that helps or hinders the MPG.

And finally thanks so much for your comments regarding the MISSING 2 quarts of oil. I will do some more research to figure out how to open this piping after the aftercooler (its NOT an intercooler since it comes AFTER the turbo :) to see if it will drain out of there. I have actually done a little research into maybe putting a dry sump oil system on the car to make a seperate oil system just for the turbo bearing but I know that is a pretty extreme mod just for mileage since they are usually only done for very high horsepower cars. But the thought of having a couple quarts of oil that does nothing but lube and cool the turbo bearing and have its own filter is a very attractive concept to me. Hopefully the turbo is healthy and I wont need to swap it, but if I do, then at least I will know its history and be able to keep it healthy with appropriate oil and change intervals.

Bought the car at 133k, currently has 138k and I am very much planning to get 500k+ out of it...

Thank you thank you thank you for any and all comments regarding the lifespan and health of this very cool drivetrain. Cheers :)
 

GlowBugTDI

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2001 Beetle GLS TDI (BIODSL). 01 original Glow Bug TDI (sold)
It is a possibility the last owner messed up and didn't put enough oil in. If you've driven it till the next oil change and the oil is at the same level your fine (10k oil change). My last tdi would lose about 1/8"-1/4" on the dip stick between oil changes and i never had an issue
 

Hyde7278

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Nov 11, 2012
Location
Central Mich
TDI
2001 Golf GL
When you get to the A/C problem keep in mind that the valve in the compressor is the part that goes bad most of the time. The valve is replaceable with the compressor in the car and cost a lot less then a new compressor.
Do a search on a/c issues and you will find a lot of posts.

Make sure your using the correct oil for the PD engine.

If your cam is bad look into Franko6 redesigned cam and bearings. It cost more then a stock cam but if you want to get to 500k it’s well worth it. Thanks the one I used when my 06 jetta needed a cam
 

Ford Guy

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Location
Colorado
TDI
2006 Jetta 4dr
thanks for your tips. I will see if it is eating oil from last to next oil change and hopefully that will give me a solid knowledge of whether its eating it or was just left low last time. also on another thread someone mentioned adding some ZDDP for better Cam protection, so i might try that as well.

on the AC compressor, I will try changing the valve first (solenoid valve I presume?) its weird though cus even when i unplug the electric connection to the compressor it still turns the whole clutch, like its locked up or something. not sure the compressor is any good, but will try the easy fix first for sure.

Thanks again for all the tips :)
 

BamaB4S

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Oct 28, 2011
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AL
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1996 Passat
Rather than performing multiple oil/filter changes and/or engine flushes, you may want to remove and clean the oil pan -
usually good practice when acquiring any vehicle with unknown maintenance history.
 

Nevada_TDI

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Joined
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Location
Reno, sort of...
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2001 Jetta TDI
thanks for your tips. I will see if it is eating oil from last to next oil change and hopefully that will give me a solid knowledge of whether its eating it or was just left low last time. also on another thread someone mentioned adding some ZDDP for better Cam protection, so i might try that as well.

on the AC compressor, I will try changing the valve first (solenoid valve I presume?) its weird though cus even when i unplug the electric connection to the compressor it still turns the whole clutch, like its locked up or something. not sure the compressor is any good, but will try the easy fix first for sure.

Thanks again for all the tips :)
I may have missed something, but if the compressor turns unplugged it may be a bad clutch and I do not believe changing a solenoid will fix it. But hey, I may be wrong.
 

Tdijarhead

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2003 TDI Jetta Daughters Car, 2001 TDI Beetle, Wife’s car, 2005 Golf TDI Mine, all 5 spds
AC wise there is a great troubleshooting thread we have here on this forum.


The compressor for the 06 has a slightly different set up but everything else should be the same. Clutches can be changed out on the mk4’s I think they can be on the mk5’s also.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
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outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
The A5's HVAC system is 100% completely different than the A4. They share no parts. The A5's compressor does not even have a clutch.
 

DonL

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Kingman, Arizona
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2005 Jetta TDI wagon (BEW)
I am over 303k miles on my 2005 Jetta TDI BEW wagon. I have always changed the oil at 5,000 miles and the filter every other oil change. People say I am wasting money, but my engine has had no issues at all. I have been using Mobil 1 TDT since 100k miles. Before that I used Motul Specific 505.01. It never had the VW recommended junk Castrol oil in it after 10,000 miles. So I will go on wasting oil with too frequent changes till the car collapses in the dust.
 

Tdijarhead

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The A5's HVAC system is 100% completely different than the A4. They share no parts. The A5's compressor does not even have a clutch.
Noted, that is why Oilhammer is such an asset to this forum community.
 

turbobrick240

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maine
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I wouldn't add any zddp or other "miracle" oil additives. Just use a good motor oil. Most oil additives cause more harm than good.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Changing the oil more frequently than 10K miles is a waste of money and resources. We have a 420K mile TDI in my family that has had 10K oil and filter changes since new. None the worse for it.
 

03TDICommuter

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01' NB, 5spd
Changing the oil more frequently than 10K miles is a waste of money and resources. We have a 420K mile TDI in my family that has had 10K oil and filter changes since new. None the worse for it.
I'm probably remembering this wrong, but wasn't there a study that showed too early an oil change is worse for wear? I think it was related to a Blackstone report or analysis. IIRC, longer miles between oil changes had the least wear until the TBN package is gone. Anyone remember this?
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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I recall that, too. Something about the additives in the oil being harmful when renewed too often by replacing the oil. Also, viscosity of the correct oils for our cars rises during the interval because of the soot they capture. That's actually good for lubrication.
 

bigsexyTDI

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Kentucky
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You've already done more "flushing" than any of us would have done. Just use a good oil and filter at 10k OCI and motor more and worry less. Welcome to the Club.
 

Ford Guy

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Aug 28, 2021
Location
Colorado
TDI
2006 Jetta 4dr
Thanks everyone for the added thoughts and comments. I am waiting on a couple filters ( trans and fuel) that I ordered and then I am ready for my next oil change. This time I am doing the DSG fluid and filter ( i suspect its never been done before ) and the fuel filter at the same time as the oil and filter. Then I think am comfortable doing at least 5k and maybe do an oil analysis at that point to see how it looks. I would love to go the full 10k, just makes me really nervous, so maybe the analysis will help me know what to do at that point. I am still deciding on an oil, but leaning towards either the Schaeffer or a Liqui Moly product. I live at high altitude in colorado and we have deeply cold and very long winters, so I am wondering if a 5-30 ( WITH all the required specs of course ) would be better in the winter months and then back to the 5-40 come spring, but I know there are already tons of forum posts on this topic, so I will read them all to see if I can get comfortable one way or the other. Thanks again everyone and as weird as it may sound, I cant wait to change the oil. For some bizarre reason, I love the feeling of getting new oil in my engine. Kind of like that first time driving on new tires your car always seems a little more healthy and fun to drive for whatever reason :) Thanks again and Cheers to all :)
 

akjdouglass

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Oct 3, 2013
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Jefferson City, Missouri
TDI
2012 Jetta w/premium (sold to VW); 2014 Jetta Value Edition; 2015 Jetta SEL; 2003 Jetta GL
5k oil changes, 60k timing belt changes, 20k DSG flushes, 20K tire changes, 24 month batteries, 15k brake fluid flushes, etc., etc....
Where will it end? There is nothing magical about oil changes. Cutting the intervals in half (or more) will not increase the life of your engine.
 

Ford Guy

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2006 Jetta 4dr
5k oil changes, 60k timing belt changes, 20k DSG flushes, 20K tire changes, 24 month batteries, 15k brake fluid flushes, etc., etc....
Where will it end? There is nothing magical about oil changes. Cutting the intervals in half (or more) will not increase the life of your engine.
???

While i get the jest and sarcasm in your comments and agree with it in some regards, tires, batteries, brake fluid and even the trans flush has absolutely nothing to do with the life of an engine. While the timing belt is actually not a bad idea especially on an interference motor; however more frequent oil changes will absolutely increase the life of your engine as it is literally the life blood of your engine. Watching people spend the equivalent amount of money on Used Oil Analysis after Analysis for a 5 qt or less oil change is honestly hilarious to me as it is about the same amount of money as just changing your oil :)

Are we that lazy? That we would rather spend hours and money agonizing over every little detail of the metal particulates and breakdown of our old oil detergents and add package when it is actually easier ( and more fun in my opinion ) to just change it more often? No one will ever convince me that 10k+ on an oil change is healthy for any engine unless it is a semi tractor or off-road equipment that holds 5 gallons of oil or more and actually justifies that amount of attention to detail. The good news is everyone gets to have there own opinion and I totally agree with you; new headlights and air fresheners dont extend the life of your engine, but frequent fluid and filter changes absolutely do. If they didnt, maybe we could just run without an air filter and let that motor breathe baby :) Leave that grungy old oil and filter in there for 15k+ and save yourself $8 instead of actually taking care of your engine and letting it be healthy for longer...

But I digress, it is definitely to each there own when it comes to DIY oil changes and I for one dont mind changing it a little early, knowing that I always have fresh clean fluids and filters for my engine to enjoy its life rather then always running on the ragged edge :)
 

Ford Guy

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2006 Jetta 4dr
Incidentally I spent an hour on the phone with a Schaeffer oil Factory Technician today and am currently deciding between 2 oils that are both around $140 a case which I fully intend to run 5k max and then dump it in a recycle bin with a grin on my face and then do it again :) Lather Rinse Repeat :) Turns out they also have a specialized dual clutch fluid that works well in our transmissions and being Schaeffer, it is of course super expensive, but I would really like to try in the DSG as well :) Cheers :)
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Will changing the oil more frequently than the manufacturer's recommend increase the life of your engine? Maybe. But there are multiple factors at play. How the engine is run and under what conditions can cause oil to fil or get contaminated more quickly than the full 10K miles, or less frequently. I recently had a customer's turbo failure denied warranty because the engine oil had failed and killed the turbo. But I have no idea how long the oil was in that car, or if it even was the correct oil.

Oil refiners, retailers, dealers, jiffy lube places...they all want you to shorten your oil change intervals because that's what generates revenue. Some of us actually do subject our engines to extreme use. I have, on the race track. But many of us use our engines normally, and a lot of us are easy enough on our engines that we could extend the oil change intervals if we wanted. For example, oilhammer here has an '01 Golf that's approaching 600K miles without a bottom end refresh and 20K mile oil change intervals.

And these engines will last a long, long time, maybe longer than the rest of the car, with 10K intervals. My son has a 420K mile '02 Golf with all original engine internals and original turbo. It's had 10K change intervals since new. The 10K interval is more than fine for most of us.

What I don't understand is why people are willing to spend money on shorter change intervals, but they won't buy oil that carries the VW certification for their car. They go overboard in one direction but cut corners in another. Does Schaeffer have an oil that carries VW's 505.01 certification? Not one they say "meets or exceeds", but actually has the certification. If not, find an oil that does (there are plenty) if you really believe oil is the life blood of the engine.
 
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hskrdu

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more frequent oil changes will absolutely increase the life of your engine as it is literally the life blood of your engine.
We already have thousands of threads on oil, oil changes, and OCIs (and at least ten of them are quite good), but I thought the OP would find DBW's previous posts on the topic interesting. I know the OP won't find it convincing, because he already told us such.

Lets follow your logic here....

VW oils are approved for a maximum service interval of 30,000 miles (50,000 KM)

VW reduces that in the US to 1/3 the approved interval to 10,000 miles.

You now want to reduce the interval to 5,000 miles or 1/6th of the approved normal interval.... Am I understanding you correctly?

Extended service oils have additives that last 30,000 miles, these additives require heat and pressure to work properly in the engine, most don't begin to work until the oil is at least 160F. Engine oil in the first 1000 miles of use has detergents that's deplete to clean the engine, other additives keep other matter suspended to prevent deposits.

Changing oil too often leads to a perpetual state of operation with high detergency, reduced additive effectiveness, and poor placement of long drain additives that allow the 30,000 mile service intervals.

I can tell you that any TDI using the properly rated oil for 10,000 miles and an engine that is running properly is wasting oil without ANY benefit to the motor in regards to reduced wear.

If you need to prove this fact to yourself UOA is expensive but by taking samples at (500) mile intervals you will be able to see that the wear rates are in fact lower at 10,000 miles (ppm per 1K) than they were in the first 5,000 miles of that oils life.

Wear rates at 20,000 miles will still be lower than they were when the oil was new. Again the method of determining the suitability is how much wear metal is being generated per 1000 miles of use.

Fe on new oil is around 5ppm
Fe on 10,000-25,000 mile oil is often below 2PPM per 1,000 miles

Ideally you should have 25ppm at 10K, 35PPM at 15K, 45PPM at 20K, 55PPM at 25K. After 25K the wear rates will increase at about 5ppm per 1K and the oil should be replaced at this point.

I have run oil drains out to 25K and have had fe ppm less than 60ppm with a performance chip.

All this is based on a car that has no visible smoke, stock tune and running properly.
(with spelling corrections)

Now, Pete doesn't visit any more, and certainly he has some detractors left over from the nozzle wars (came after the clone wars), but the background of support for his arguments are sound. I was one of those people for whom the 10k OCI was difficult to accept, much less any criticism of a 5k OCI. I'm not an oil expert, but my own reading would suggest that UOAs associated with short OCIs indicate higher wear rates in the early miles of new oil (compared to the second 5k of a 10k OCI). Owners who repeatedly introduce new oil are increasing the number of miles the engine is exposed to higher wear rates. I'm not an old school Ford guy, but having grown up with conventional oils and air-cooled VWs, I had to adjust my understanding of extended OCIs over time to allow that 10k (20k plus in Europe) may be the preferred duration.

(I note here that Bob Fout previously responded to DBW that, although wear may increase with short OCIs, they are reasonable for cars seeing low yearly mileage, and that although engine wear does increase, it's not sufficient to raise alarm).

The OP has already said that no one will ever convince him that 10k OCIs for on-road diesels is healthy, so I'm not sure there's much more to say- hopefully he will soften his approach. Personally, I think most of the earlier TDI engines are so robust, that when using a good full synth oil of the proper spec, an engine will happily see 400k miles across of the span of OCIs, from 5k tp 20k, as many members here have demonstrated. So why stick to VW's recommended (and tested) interval for oil changes? Because, as IBW said, 5k oil changes are a waste of resources and money. The kicker? Short OCIs are also associated with increased engine wear.
 

Ford Guy

Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2021
Location
Colorado
TDI
2006 Jetta 4dr
Will changing the oil more frequently than the manufacturer's recommend increase the life of your engine? Maybe. But there are multiple factors at play. How the engine is run and under what conditions can cause oil to fil or get contaminated more quickly than the full 10K miles, or less frequently. I recently had a customer's turbo failure denied warranty because the engine oil had failed and killed the turbo. But I have no idea how long the oil was in that car, or if it even was the correct oil.

Oil refiners, retailers, dealers, jiffy lube places...they all want you to shorten your oil change intervals because that's what generates revenue. Some of us actually do subject our engines to extreme use. I have, on the race track. But many of us use our engines normally, and a lot of us are easy enough on our engines that we could extend the oil change intervals if we wanted. For example, oilhammer here has an '01 Golf that's approaching 600K miles without a bottom end refresh and 20K mile oil change intervals.

And these engines will last a long, long time, maybe longer than the rest of the car, with 10K intervals. My son has a 420K mile '02 Golf with all original engine internals and original turbo. It's had 10K change intervals since new. The 10K interval is more than fine for most of us.

What I don't understand is why people are willing to spend money on shorter change intervals, but they won't buy oil that carries the VW certification for their car. They go overboard in one direction but cut corners in another. Does Schaeffer have an oil that carries VW's 505.01 certification? Not one they say "meets or exceeds", but actually has the certification. If not, find an oil that does (there are plenty) if you really believe oil is the life blood of the engine.
Schaeffers does have oils with VW's blessing printed on the bottle there "8008" is 501.00, 502.00 & 505.01 and they have a "9000" deriviative that is 504.00 and 507.00 approved as well as all the MB certs, and they are both more expensive then any of the imported oils, so I am not sure how that is "cutting" any corners???
 

Ford Guy

Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2021
Location
Colorado
TDI
2006 Jetta 4dr
Personally I guess I am just glad that we all get to choose what we do to our own vehicles and I for one am not going to cheap out and stretch that oil as far as I possibly can, just because its theoretically possible. I would rather "introduce" fresh clean oil as often as is reasonably possible :) Instead of relying on ash and soot and other burned up elements to soften up our oil and increase its lubricity when we could just put in fresh oil and "know" its clean and lubricating properly :) To each there own :)
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Schaeffers does have oils with VW's blessing printed on the bottle there "8008" is 501.00, 502.00 & 505.01 and they have a "9000" deriviative that is 504.00 and 507.00 approved as well as all the MB certs, and they are both more expensive then any of the imported oils, so I am not sure how that is "cutting" any corners???
The data sheet for 8008 says "meets, exceeds and is suitable for use" and lists 505.01.. By contrast, Liqui-Moly Top Tec 4100 lists 505.01 as one of its "Approvals". Correct me if you see something different, but I think that indicates that the Schaeffer oil does not have the VW 505.01 approval.
 
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