Timing

louis11018

Active member
Joined
Nov 28, 2020
Location
Arcade ny
TDI
98 Jetta tdi ahu
I have a 1998 Jetta tdi 1.9L manual, engine code ahu. I am doing the timing belt on my car and ran into a problem, I cannot seem to get the mark on the flywheel aligned with the camshaft, any help would be appreciated
 

Mongler98

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Mar 23, 2011
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COLORADO (SE of Denver)
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98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
Then you are not following the step by step process correctly

You need to have the bolt on the cam sprocket completely loos and the sprocket needs to be loose, careful doing that. Not off, just loos so it can spin freely.
Lock out the cam with some flat steel (I use sawzall blades and a magnet.
Lock out the IP (I use a bolt I got from Lowes)
Rotate the flywheel till it’s clocked at the bell housings mark
once all your work (seals, roller, etc... are done) install the belt with the tensioners arm NOT engaged into the hole and the 10mm bolt not installed yet to give you the most room with the belt. Now once the belt is on and in place use a flat head screwdriver to push the arm of the tensioner into its hole. NOW check all the timing marks to make sure that they are all still 100% located properly. Now is the time to adjust the tensioner and torque the 10mm bolt. NOW you may torque down the cam sprocket bolt with a counter holder (I made one with some bolts and flat stock bar). The sprocket needs to be able to move during this process. It takes some time getting things to be happy but its 100% possible to have everything perfectly ling up when done. If it does not, it’s not correct and you need to adjust things.
 

Mongler98

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Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
TDI
98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
The trick to finding the flywheel is to have somone rotate the crank while you hold a flat head against the surface. You will feel it before you see it.
 

louis11018

Active member
Joined
Nov 28, 2020
Location
Arcade ny
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98 Jetta tdi ahu
The flywheel mark is very hard to see and passes relatively fast past the window. It can be a little easier to find if you have someone else turn the crank while you look with a flashlight.
I had my dad look through the hole of the flywheel to tell me when the mark is aligned with the arrow as said when the mark on the flywheel is lined up, the camshaft is not even close to flush with the head, where would I go from here?
 

louis11018

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Nov 28, 2020
Location
Arcade ny
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98 Jetta tdi ahu
The trick to finding the flywheel is to have somone rotate the crank while you hold a flat head against the surface. You will feel it before you see it.
As I said on the other reply, I had my dad tell me when the flywheel mark is lined up with the arrow, when the flywheel mark is lined up the camshaft is not even close to flush with the head
 

garciapiano

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Feb 12, 2018
Location
Southern California
TDI
1997 Jetta TDI (1Z)
Was the engine properly running before the timing belt change?It is normal to expect a little asynchronicity between the cam and crank timing due to the timing belt stretching over time and the actual tensioning process for this engine. The injection timing will retard slightly as the timing belt naturally wears.

It’s also possible depending how out of time it is that camshaft sprocket slipped or you jumped time on the belt... in which case bad things generally happen.

Either way, you’ll need to get it as close as possible, detension the belt per the instructions and re-align everything as best you can. The camshaft sprocket will allow you to re-sync everything once you’ve got the other parts lined up.
 

Mongler98

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Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
TDI
98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
take belt off. ling things up by hand. do as i recommended for install.
all in all its 45 minutes of work.
 

louis11018

Active member
Joined
Nov 28, 2020
Location
Arcade ny
TDI
98 Jetta tdi ahu
Was the engine properly running before the timing belt change?It is normal to expect a little asynchronicity between the cam and crank timing due to the timing belt stretching over time and the actual tensioning process for this engine. The injection timing will retard slightly as the timing belt naturally wears.

It’s also possible depending how out of time it is that camshaft sprocket slipped or you jumped time on the belt... in which case bad things generally happen.

Either way, you’ll need to get it as close as possible, detension the belt per the instructions and re-align everything as best you can. The camshaft sprocket will allow you to re-sync everything once you’ve got the other parts lined up.
Before the car stopped running, I had gotten it back from the shop and it ran fine for a few days and then all of a sudden when I was driving, I would be driving shifting gears to get up to speed and then as soon as I would let my foot off the throttle for a second and then put my foot back on the throttle it would blow out black smoke and make a loud pop, it was night time and I could see a flames come through the end of the tailpipe when it happened. So no the car did not run properly before
 

louis11018

Active member
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Nov 28, 2020
Location
Arcade ny
TDI
98 Jetta tdi ahu
take belt off. ling things up by hand. do as i recommended for install.
all in all its 45 minutes of work.
Will give it another try when I get home, I forgot to mention that the car did not run properly before there was no ticking of any sort the car just stopped running one day, should I be worried about the anything internally that could’ve went wrong?
 

Mongler98

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Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
TDI
98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
get timing correct on the belt and parts. always rotate by hand 4 full rotations at the crank to make sure nothing hits. if nothing hits, start it up. if it does not start, compression test it.
 

garciapiano

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Feb 12, 2018
Location
Southern California
TDI
1997 Jetta TDI (1Z)
Will give it another try when I get home, I forgot to mention that the car did not run properly before there was no ticking of any sort the car just stopped running one day, should I be worried about the anything internally that could’ve went wrong?
That does not bode well, but the first test would be if you are able to turn the engine completely over at least two revolutions without any interference. If that fails you likely have a bent valve, possibly from timing jumping.

You’ll also need to define “didn’t start” because there are plenty of things unrelated to timing that would cause the engine to not start. For a diesel, what is needed for combustion is proper timing, fuel, air, and compression. If you find after the timing belt install that the engine won’t start, there will need to be a separate diagnosis that looks at those factors. Generally, replacing a timing belt on an engine that didn’t run before won’t fix anything unless the fault itself is timing-related.
 

burn_your_money

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Oct 16, 2012
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Missouri
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99 Beetle, 96 B4V, 05 Passat wagon
Did you check the timing before removing the belt? Are any of the cam followers sticking and not maintaining contact with the camshaft? Are you sure you are using the correct mark on the crankshaft? You should remove the crank gear and verify that it isn't trying to shear the keyway off. You will need a new crank bolt as they are one time use.

When you are tensioning the belt, the cam AND pump locks need to be removed. It is easiest to find the crank mark by marking it with white-out, a sharpie, chalk etc. Also, jack the driver's tire up in the air and put the car in 4th or 5th gear. Use the tire to rotate the crank. You'll have to stick a screwdriver in the passenger side rotor if you have it up in the air to keep it from turning. It won't work if both wheels can turn.
 

louis11018

Active member
Joined
Nov 28, 2020
Location
Arcade ny
TDI
98 Jetta tdi ahu
That does not bode well, but the first test would be if you are able to turn the engine completely over at least two revolutions without any interference. If that fails you likely have a bent valve, possibly from timing jumping.

You’ll also need to define “didn’t start” because there are plenty of things unrelated to timing that would cause the engine to not start. For a diesel, what is needed for combustion is proper timing, fuel, air, and compression. If you find after the timing belt install that the engine won’t start, there will need to be a separate diagnosis that looks at those factors. Generally, replacing a timing belt on an engine that didn’t run before won’t fix anything unless the fault itself is timing-related.
That does not bode well, but the first test would be if you are able to turn the engine completely over at least two revolutions without any interference. If that fails you likely have a bent valve, possibly from timing jumping.

You’ll also need to define “didn’t start” because there are plenty of things unrelated to timing that would cause the engine to not start. For a diesel, what is needed for combustion is proper timing, fuel, air, and compression. If you find after the timing belt install that the engine won’t start, there will need to be a separate diagnosis that looks at those factors. Generally, replacing a timing belt on an engine that didn’t run before won’t fix anything unless the fault itself is timing-related.
yes I can turn the engine a full 2 revolutions and felt no interference, but while doing so there’s a lot of compression and what I mean by “didn’t start” is the car just cranks and cranks and cranks with no start, I checked the fuel line from the filter to the IP and there’s no bubbles, loosened the injector lines and bled them, I had brought my car into a shop which did very poor work and they had said that they adjusted the timing because it was off a tooth, which led me to believe they did it wrong and that is why my car had been running poorly and eventually quit, although there was no ticking or banging, it just wouldn’t turn over anymore, which leads me to believe the timing is off
 

louis11018

Active member
Joined
Nov 28, 2020
Location
Arcade ny
TDI
98 Jetta tdi ahu
Did you check the timing before removing the belt? Are any of the cam followers sticking and not maintaining contact with the camshaft? Are you sure you are using the correct mark on the crankshaft? You should remove the crank gear and verify that it isn't trying to shear the keyway off. You will need a new crank bolt as they are one time use.

When you are tensioning the belt, the cam AND pump locks need to be removed. It is easiest to find the crank mark by marking it with white-out, a sharpie, chalk etc. Also, jack the driver's tire up in the air and put the car in 4th or 5th gear. Use the tire to rotate the crank. You'll have to stick a screwdriver in the passenger side rotor if you have it up in the air to keep it from turning. It won't work if both wheels can turn.
I will take a look and order the new part, and as for the timing marks yes I am using the right one, and I will try your suggestion
 

Abacus

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Nov 10, 2007
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Relocated from Maine to Dewey, AZ
TDI
Only the B4V left
There is no keyway on the crank sprocket, but I'll bet it's moving. Unfortunately the timing will have to be redone to do this but it's easier the second time. I've run into it a bunch on these engines. These are pictures of one (of quite a few) that confirmed the crank sprocket was moving by a simple static timing check.





And this is what they look like when they're 'walking'.


 

burn_your_money

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2012
Location
Missouri
TDI
99 Beetle, 96 B4V, 05 Passat wagon
There is no keyway on the crank sprocket,
You're right, thank you.

It's very common for them to really start moving after doing a timing belt job or anything that requires you to put a socket on the 12 point 19mm crank bolt for some reason.
A clutched alternator pulley really helps to prevent/delay this from happening.

Based on what you've described, with the shop adjusting timing, then it being off again, I would start with the crank pulley.
 

Mongler98

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Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
TDI
98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
you know, there is a spot for a keyway to go in and i kid you not, on MY ahu, there was one installed when i did the timing belt. This was the reason that the sprocket did not sit flush where its supposed to be. the previous mechanic put one in. even though there is a keyway on the sprocket and the cam, its not supposed to be installed.
 

burn_your_money

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Oct 16, 2012
Location
Missouri
TDI
99 Beetle, 96 B4V, 05 Passat wagon
You may be doing a ton of extra work for no reason. At least remove the crank sprocket while it's still in the car and see if that is your issue. If it's not, put it back together with a new bolt, time the engine and you should be on your way.
 

Mongler98

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Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
TDI
98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
yea..... why are you going nuts on all this work. just fix the timing. like $10 for the bolt and $30 for a sprocket, 10 minutes of time to fix.
at least take it off first!
 

louis11018

Active member
Joined
Nov 28, 2020
Location
Arcade ny
TDI
98 Jetta tdi ahu
You may be doing a ton of extra work for no reason. At least remove the crank sprocket while it's still in the car and see if that is your issue. If it's not, put it back together with a new bolt, time the engine and you should be on your way.
I left the engine as is so I’ll go back out and give it another shot
 

Steve Addy

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Joined
Aug 7, 2002
Location
Iowa
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97 Mk3
I left the engine as is so I’ll go back out and give it another shot
It would be worth it to go back and reset / redo the timing once again just as a method of checking. I've found that once you get used to it the timing belt setup can be done in pretty short order.

Further, and not sure anyone has said it, but the problem with these always seems to be in the IP to crank fitment range vs the rest of the belt setup. And I've found that if you start with the belt installed on the crank sprocket you quite often have to push down on the IP sprocket pin when trying to fit the belt correctly at the IP. Now some will call this something like "moving it a tooth" or what not, but in reality it's because the fitment between the two is so close that you have to push the IP sprocket into position to get it where it needs to be for the belt to slip on. Alternatively you could move the crank sprocket ccw slightly, then fit the belt at the IP, and the move the crank sprocket cw back to tdc again, I've done it that way too with certain brands of belts.

At any rate I would give it a try again before calling it quits on this.

Good luck

Steve A
 

Mongler98

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Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
TDI
98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
Just a bad timing job, willing to bet it was the shop that messed it up, thanks for the info, it was a lot of help!
Just drives the point home, you have a car that you either have to diy or have a guru for. Dont take it anywhere else.
Glad it was a simple fix. Now you're set for your next TB in a few years. Do you have a VAG-COM cable?
 

louis11018

Active member
Joined
Nov 28, 2020
Location
Arcade ny
TDI
98 Jetta tdi ahu
Just drives the point home, you have a car that you either have to diy or have a guru for. Dont take it anywhere else.
Glad it was a simple fix. Now you're set for your next TB in a few years. Do you have a VAG-COM cable?
My friend has a code reader I have been using but I’m going to buy a vag-com cable so I don’t have to keep asking to use it and yes I plan on doing all the work myself
 
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