Clutch Options

themightyquinn

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 7, 2005
TDI
1999 New Beetle Black
Hey folks,
I've casually been considering a 5-speed swap for a few years (and even more heavily since my torque converter went out). After dropping my the pan and trans in my Passat over the winter break I realize that replacing the torque converter at this point is just kicking the can a very short amount down the road.

In the past I've noticed that despite there being a good amount of interest in the swap (and a good amount of experience and knowledge), there doesn't seem to be one consolidated thread for clutch information. There have been a few attempts but they seem to drift off and get a bit into the weeds and confusing. So I'm starting this one with an aim to consolidate all of the information there and that I hope this one will generate into one initial post which consolidates and updates with information from this and other threads.

I'll start with the information I know, or think I do, and we can update/correct as necessary. Any input on how better to organize, pertinent details, options I'm not aware of, etc. would be appreciated.
Things I'm unsure of in italics
DMF = Dual Mass Flywheel; SMF = Single Mass Flywheel
5-speed​
228 mm
Stock 1.8T DMF
Dual Mass Flywheel with clutch
Pros: relatively cheap, potentially smoother/better transmission life due to DMF
Cons: Potentially insufficient for stock TQ levels, Insufficient for Stage 1/2 TQ. Potential for DMF failure
(Can SBC work their magic on this setup too?)

Valeo 1.8T SMF
P/N:52285615
Pros: Cheap ($316 at Amazon, $300 at Rock Auto), potentially better reliability due to SMF
Cons: Potentially insufficient for stock TQ levels, Insufficient for Stage 1/2 TQ.

Valeo 1.8T SMF + South Bend Clutch (SBC) upgrades
P/N:52285615 + SBC relining of clutch disc (and PP improvements?)
Pros: Reports indicate good reliability at stock and Stage 1/2; good availability
Cons: More expensive than some of the other options ($300 for base kit + ~$350 for SBC work + shipping both ways = $700+

Valeo 1.9 TDI SMF
P/N: 835012
Pros: Engineered with TDI (AWX) in mind, reports indicate reliable holding for stock and stage 1/2 power levels. Bolt on clutch with no additional modifications needed (Euro starter? Spacer?)
Cons: Somewhat expensive ($550-600 delivered), no US supplier/warranty.

Sachs 1.9 TDI DMF
P/N: 2290 601 032
Pros: Engineered with TDI (AWX) in mind, should provide reliable holding for stock and Stage 1/2 power levels. Bolt on clutch with no additional modifications needed (Euro starter? Spacer?). DMF for less NVH.(Sachs, so higher quality than Valeo?)
Cons: Somewhat expensive ($600+ delivered), no US supplier/warranty.

240 mm
I'm fuzzy on this

a number of Sachs/Valeo/LUK OE replacement DMF and SMF kits for AVF engines, which (only?) works for 6 speed (SMF is likely fine, DMF requires spacer and starter?)


Whitbread 240mm flywheel
Pros: Nice and heavy, SMF for reliability, supports TDI community
Cons: Rather expensive ($479 for flywheel), Only ClutchMaster clutches work (reports of poor reliability on clutch), Expensive (+$400 for FX100, +550 for FX300)

"S4" 240mm 1.8T kits
Pros: Less expensive, no modifications required, likely good grip
Cons: Lightweight SMF which may increase NVF / kill transmissions



I've got to get back to studying, but that should provide a good skeleton for comments, discussions, additions, etc
 
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zzdiesel

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2010
Location
sask. mostly now Wa.
TDI
05 passat tdi Geared BSM and Bewcam 2nd 2005 deleted ,converted and bew cam stage 2 Malone3 tune.
My clutch along with the FHN kit was supplied by Franz. It was the single mass Valeo which I assume was for the 1.9. He said it would have no problem with a stage 2 tune and for 40K it hasn"t. It has been real smooth,no break in required.

Along with the delete there is enough vibration at certain RPMs that make me wonder if a dual mass might be desirable.
 

mozark

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 7, 2018
Location
Mon Nat'l Forest, West Virginia
TDI
'05 Passat Wagon, Silver, 5sp '05 Passat Wagon, Indigo, auto
I have a 228mm Sachs DMF for the 1.9 in a 2005 Passat, EEN, stage 1 Malone. About 3K on it since October. A buttery smooth clutch with no indication that it is mismatched to the application
 

PickleRick

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2017
Location
Greenville sc
TDI
05 GLS BHW sedan 5 speed conversion. BHW Carver SantaCruz in progress
If Matt had any other supplier than centerforce for his clutch and pressure plate l id use him. Matt is a great guy. Clutchmasters can suck a bag of worms. Matt didn't manufacture the clutch and pressure plate, he manufactured the flywheel that had ZERO issues.

Dmf vs smf


For me the bs delete plus smf doesn't feel bad. My previous or other vehicles are usually a leaf spring suspension diesel 4x4 or a solid motor mount racing clutch and racing suspension honda with low pro tires. I may be a little more used to feeling vibrations and any bump in the road than the average audi/vw enthusiast.

Serviceability: if you own a manual transmission vehicle long enough you know a clutch will wear. I don't know of any dmf that can be turned or resurfaced. When the clutch fails on a dmf you need an entire clutch and fw kit.

With South bend if it fails you send them your new Valeo clutch and pressure plate along with your old fw and they will turn it for free when they do their once over. Cheaper to get her back on the road.

The clutch/fw and pp all fit in a usps flat rate box. Usps isnt happy about it but if it fits...it ships.

South bend only rated the endurance work on the valeo at 295 lbs torque, a stage 2 bhw rates around 300. Malone or whatever tuner you use may be a little optimistic about 300 or 310. If you drive like a sensible adult it should hold fine to a stage 2 tune. Drive like a Jason Statham film and shes toast.

There are no cheap clutch options for a b5.5 5 speed conversion.
 
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themightyquinn

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 7, 2005
TDI
1999 New Beetle Black
Thanks everyone for your input. I'll try and integrate some of the comments. Since this swap is becoming more and more common I figured it would be good to get all this information consolidated in one place rather than hunting through a bunch of threads and still being confused (like I am/have been)

Ran the stock 240mm DMF and clutch for 5 years without issue on a Malone tune.
Thanks. This is with a 6-speed correct?

Given equal parts quality, 240mm seems like the obvious winner for reliability in holding stock and upgraded power, but I'm fuzzy on what combinations work and how.

So my current understanding is something like this:
240mm SMF -> no additional parts on 5/6 speed
240mm DMF -> 5.5mm bellhousing shim (and european starter?) for 6 (and 5 speed?).

Does that seem correct to everyone?

What are other potential combinations that have gotchas like needing to modify starter, shimming, etc.; and what are those required modifications?


PickleRick

Thanks for the input, I'll try and work in the fact that it can ship in a flat rate box, that will save a bit of money over full freight both ways. Longevity stock and with a tune is definitely one of the data points I'm trying to compile here. Thanks for the info on torque holding capabilities.

Thanks to everyone for the input so far, keep it coming.
 

PickleRick

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2017
Location
Greenville sc
TDI
05 GLS BHW sedan 5 speed conversion. BHW Carver SantaCruz in progress
With the dmf 240 mm on your 5 speed you'll need a spacer for your starter, vwzips may have one for sale.

No need to import a euro starter, BHW starters are pretty dead reliable with a long life expectancy.
 

blazen71

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2011
Location
Wiskullsin
TDI
All Gone
If Matt had any other supplier than centerforce for his clutch and pressure plate l id use him. Matt is a great guy. Centerforce can suck a bag of worms. Matt didn't manufacture the clutch and pressure plate, he manufactured the flywheel that had ZERO issues.

Dmf vs smf


For me the bs delete plus smf doesn't feel bad. My previous or other vehicles are usually a leaf spring suspension diesel 4x4 or a solid motor mount racing clutch and racing suspension honda with low pro tires. I may be a little more used to feeling vibrations and any bump in the road than the average audi/vw enthusiast.

Serviceability: if you own a manual transmission vehicle long enough you know a clutch will wear. I don't know of any dmf that can be turned or resurfaced. When the clutch fails on a dmf you need an entire clutch and fw kit.

With South bend if it fails you send them your new Valeo clutch and pressure plate along with your old fw and they will turn it for free when they do their once over. Cheaper to get her back on the road.

The clutch/fw and pp all fit in a usps flat rate box. Usps isnt happy about it but if it fits...it ships.

South bend only rated the endurance work on the valeo at 295 lbs torque, a stage 2 bhw rates around 300. Malone or whatever tuner you use may be a little optimistic about 300 or 310. If you drive like a sensible adult it should hold fine to a stage 2 tune. Drive like a Jason Statham film and shes toast.

There are no cheap clutch options for a b5.5 5 speed conversion.
You mean ClutchMasters? As far as DMF resurfacing, it can be done, the shop just has to be set up for it. I had an OEM 240mm DMF resurfaced for my Allroad 6-speed.
 

PickleRick

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2017
Location
Greenville sc
TDI
05 GLS BHW sedan 5 speed conversion. BHW Carver SantaCruz in progress
Yes sorry clutch masters, no idea why i had center force on my mind. I corrected my post, im glad you pointed that out.


As for turning a dmf, im sure you can't go to a regular machine shop to do this, you'll probably have to ship it out. Most manufacturers dont recommend a dmf resurface but i have heard south bend will do some with careful inspection.

Because of that i consider them one time use.
 
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deckerfl

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 29, 2011
Location
Falls Church, VA
TDI
2004 Passat Wagon TDI W/ Geared BSM, DUK 5Spd.
A Clutch related question:
Have most retained the OEM Clutch Lines?
I've read that installing the OEM clutch lines can be tedious.
Have any used USP Clutch lines? Worth it?
If so what was the USP Part number.
I have a DUK Transmission on it's was from Quality German Auto in CA. Frans was out of FHN and DUK's. I have a Sachs DMF clutch kit coming from Frans though. I'll report on it when I get a few miles on it.
Thanks
Dan
 

mozark

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 7, 2018
Location
Mon Nat'l Forest, West Virginia
TDI
'05 Passat Wagon, Silver, 5sp '05 Passat Wagon, Indigo, auto
I used a stock VAG clutch line without removing the booster. It was a royal PITA. Had to make a flex tool to push it under the booster. Think I used white oak, about 1/8" thick. Took three or four tries before tweaking the final bend allowed it to seat properly in the MC. I did order a braided line. USP012CL2, after initially giving up on the stock line. With the braided line on order I was able to indulge my stubborn streak and get more aggressive with the stock line.
 

PickleRick

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2017
Location
Greenville sc
TDI
05 GLS BHW sedan 5 speed conversion. BHW Carver SantaCruz in progress
The stock line, for me was easy to remove. I've pulled 2 donor 5 speed b5 passats apart. The line didn't need any bending.
The trick is to remove and/or install the hard line while the engine and transmission are out.
 

vwztips

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 30, 2009
Location
Greenville, SC
TDI
2005 Passat GLS Wagon TDI 5 spd manual w/BSM delete 2011 Tiguan TDI/DSG 2005 Audi A4 Avant 6MQ TDI 2011 BMW X5 35d
I do have a spacer for sale if needed.

For a 240mm DMF flywheel you cannot use the stock starter. The gear ring is in a different position.
 

deckerfl

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 29, 2011
Location
Falls Church, VA
TDI
2004 Passat Wagon TDI W/ Geared BSM, DUK 5Spd.
I have a 5 speed DUK Trans. And the Sach 2290 601 032 DMF 228mm Clutch kit, and a Malone stage 2 Tune. The clutch is nice and smooth and so far is holding the power and not slipping. Stock starter can be used, no spacer needed.
 
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d0u8l3m

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2014
Location
Connecticut
TDI
B5.5 Passat
Figured I would ad to this thread. So I have a DUK 5 speed and originally started off with a sachs DMF with their 881864999961 clutch and 883082999715 pressure plate.

Clutch

Pressure Plate

Last year the DMF failed and I replaced it alone with a LUK DMF039

LUK DMF

This DMF felt much better than the sachs one ever did and didn't show as much flywheel shutter.

Last week I thought I killed the transmission but turns out the clutch hub failed on the sachs clutch. Pressure plate and everything else was fine.



So I'm not sure if this is from driving hard every now and then or if a stage 2 just has too much torque for any of the 228mm setup clutches available. Still debating on weather to replace them with the same components or try a new setup.

My car was swapped around 125k, first flywheel failed at around 160k and it has almost 175k as of now.

Thoughts?
 
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