VW Won't Attempt to Regain Diesel Leadership in US; Many TDI Models May Never Return

kjclow

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GM no longer has a stake in VM Motori. They got out of that ~2013.

The Colorado 2.8 is a GM designed motor built in Thailand. AFAIK it is not related to VM Motori.

As for the Tesla bashing above - How many gasoline/diesel cars have caught fire? Fuel OR battery, both can catch fire, so this is not a uniquely Tesla problem, and I'm frustrated when people present it as such.
The majority of the "car" fires around here the last few years have been caused by the Volt chargers. Seems like more of an electircal fire to me.
 

tikal

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I'll be a happy boy if hatches and wagons actually become en vogue here in North America again. I'd love to actually have some options in the next 1-2 years for a manual wagon/hatch.

Needs to have a bit of grunt though whatever it is though (hence wanting a diesel). Have we seen any numbers on the GM 1.6L (North American version)?
I have not seen any indications of wagons coming back to North America. On the contrary people want more and more SUVs. Even smaller compact sedans are being replaced with smaller SUVs such as the Mazda CX-3 and Honda HR-V.

VW and Toyota make the only two remaining true wagon models in the US under $30K. I do not count the Subaru models as, to me, they have morphed into SUVs :-(
 

J.R.

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I have not seen any indications of wagons coming back to North America. On the contrary people want more and more SUVs. Even smaller compact sedans are being replaced with smaller SUVs such as the Mazda CX-3 and Honda HR-V.

VW and Toyota make the only two remaining true wagon models in the US under $30K. I do not count the Subaru models as, to me, they have morphed into SUVs :-(
Yeah that's sadly been my observation as well, I was just going by what the other poster said. I'd be happy as heck if it comes true.

SUV/CUV's would be great if you could get them with manuals in anything but stripper models, if at all.

Manual, diesel powered hatches and wagons... Evidently I was born on the wrong continent.
 

ROD-TDI

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SNIP... I have not seen any indications of wagons coming back to North America. On the contrary people want more and more SUVs. Even smaller compact sedans are being replaced with smaller SUVs such as the Mazda CX-3 and Honda HR-V.
We recently drove a Honda HR-V and was very dissapointed with the performance of its CVT transmission! Compared to our earlier Honda Fit 5-speed the HR-V couldn't get out of its own way! The same was true of the small Subaru SUV with its CVT that we also test drove. We looked at these because we suspect that we will not be able to get a VW Tiquan TDI, which we want to replace our 2003 Golf GL TDI with.

I haven't seen any comments about CVT performance... everybody likes these?
-Rod
 

pparks1

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I have the CVT in my Accord. I am perfectly happy with the performance. It's great in the fact that it never has to downshift when you press the pedal. And I am a very slow driver, so it's rare for my RPMs to go over 2k when I am accelerating. I can barely hear the engine or the trans.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
 

atc98002

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We looked at these because we suspect that we will not be able to get a VW Tiquan TDI, which we want to replace our 2003 Golf GL TDI with.
The next generation Tiguan is probably a year or so away, and so far nothing has been confirmed about it, other than it's getting a little larger to support a 3rd row. I bought the Q5 to tide me over until VW releases the next generation of Tiguan and the new Atlas. I want to see what engines are coming. While I'm hoping for a TDI within a year or so of release, I would also be satisfied with a hybrid. The Jetta hybrid was a nice package, except for the RNS-315 radio. That's what kept me from buying it instead of my Passat. If they do a hybrid in the Tiguan, I will be my top choice. I don't need/want a 3rd row, but a larger storage space behind the 2nd row sounds good.
 

bhtooefr

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We recently drove a Honda HR-V and was very dissapointed with the performance of its CVT transmission! Compared to our earlier Honda Fit 5-speed the HR-V couldn't get out of its own way! The same was true of the small Subaru SUV with its CVT that we also test drove. We looked at these because we suspect that we will not be able to get a VW Tiquan TDI, which we want to replace our 2003 Golf GL TDI with.

I haven't seen any comments about CVT performance... everybody likes these?
-Rod
Is it actually "not getting out of its own way", or does it just feel like that?

Humans don't really feel acceleration, they feel jerk (change in acceleration). A conventional automatic's shifting causes jerk that a CVT doesn't have.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
Is it actually "not getting out of its own way", or does it just feel like that?
Humans don't really feel acceleration, they feel jerk (change in acceleration). A conventional automatic's shifting causes jerk that a CVT doesn't have.
Well, a 4 cyl FWD Audi A4 with a CVT feels like a guided missile, so I am not sure I buy the whole "blame the CVT for it "feeling" slow" thing.

Subies feel dreadful slow with a CVT too. And the Versa is AWFUL with a CVT, but reasonably peppy with a manual. Civic HX is another bad car to drive with a CVT. Standard issue stripper Civic of the same vintage with a manual? Peppy and if driven properly uses even less fuel.
 

VeeDubTDI

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I have not seen any indications of wagons coming back to North America. On the contrary people want more and more SUVs. Even smaller compact sedans are being replaced with smaller SUVs such as the Mazda CX-3 and Honda HR-V.

VW and Toyota make the only two remaining true wagon models in the US under $30K. I do not count the Subaru models as, to me, they have morphed into SUVs :-(
The Subaru Legacy wagon doesn't count? :confused:



Perhaps you're conflating all wagons with their "Outback" optional trim with taller suspension, which allows for a bit better off-road handling than the standard non-Outback trim.



Even with the taller suspension, the Legacy Outback wagon is still a wagon. ;)
 

DrSmile

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I actually test drove a stick and a CVT Forester (2017)... I was fully expecting to hate the CVT but the new programming made it feel very good. I was shocked to really HATE the 5 speed. The engine just isn't designed for a stick, there was zero power until high rpms. The turbo model is a different story but once again now we're talking about a $40K automobile. The CVTs are slowly killing off the stick market because the engine designs for CVTs in terms of power curve are so different.

I didn't buy either because the Rogue has more features for less money... and didn't buy the Rogue because the CVT sucked. Still driving the TDI!
 
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ROD-TDI

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Is it actually "not getting out of its own way", or does it just feel like that?

Humans don't really feel acceleration, they feel jerk (change in acceleration). A conventional automatic's shifting causes jerk that a CVT doesn't have.
Having drag raced for many years (SuperStock and AA/Fuel dragster) I know what acceleration feels like! We had an awful time trying to merge on I-81 in the HR-V and into rapid traffic with a Forester. The CVT in my opinion is not something I will buy. Period.
-Rod
 

tikal

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Having drag raced for many years (SuperStock and AA/Fuel dragster) I know what acceleration feels like! We had an awful time trying to merge on I-81 in the HR-V and into rapid traffic with a Forester. The CVT in my opinion is not something I will buy. Period.
-Rod
To add to this conversation I would say that the physical characteristics of an SUV (taller, heavier, sometimes AWD, etc.) are a better fit for a light duty diesel engine. Kind of 'you can have your cake and eat it too' ;)

Mazda is trying to change this by making gasoline engines that 'behave' like a diesel engine, hoping for better MPG without too much detriment to performance. I will be curious to know how is the performance of the Mazda CX-5 Skyactiv vs lets say a Toyota RAV4 (including the hybrid version and the diesel version available in Europe and Asia) and/or Honda CRV.
 

bhtooefr

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There's a few ways to come at this...

Fuel efficiency, using Fuelly numbers:

CX-5, 2.5 liter I4: (CX-5 numbers are a bit of a mess due to being mixed between Fuelly's old way of counting engines, and the new way)
2014: 26.6 MPG
2015: 25.8 MPG
2016: 26.0 MPG

RAV4 Hybrid:
2016: 33.8 MPG

The sample size on RAV4 diesels is pretty awful, and spread across multiple types.

The CR-V diesels are scattered across so many incorrect types (2-cylinder diesels? V4 diesels?) that I'm not even gonna attempt to try.

Now, for performance in terms of acceleration and grip... numbers from Car and Driver, MY2016.

CX-5:

Zero to 60 mph: 7.7 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 23.0 sec
Zero to 110 mph: 31.0 sec
Rolling start, 5-60 mph: 8.0 sec
Top gear, 30-50 mph: 3.8 sec
Top gear, 50-70 mph: 5.2 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 16.0 sec @ 86 mph
Top speed (governor limited): 120 mph
Braking, 70-0 mph: 175 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad*: 0.81 g

RAV4 Hybrid:

Zero to 60 mph: 8.3 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 23.7 sec
Zero to 110 mph: 31.9 sec
Rolling start, 5-60 mph: 8.3 sec
Top gear, 30-50 mph: 4.1 sec
Top gear, 50-70 mph: 5.3 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 16.4 sec @ 86 mph
Top speed (governor limited): 114 mph
Braking, 70-0 mph: 181 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.76 g

Yeah, the CX-5 beats it in every respect. Of course, being a full 439 lbs lighter helps...
 
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Westro

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We recently drove a Honda HR-V and was very dissapointed with the performance of its CVT transmission! Compared to our earlier Honda Fit 5-speed the HR-V couldn't get out of its own way! The same was true of the small Subaru SUV with its CVT that we also test drove. We looked at these because we suspect that we will not be able to get a VW Tiquan TDI, which we want to replace our 2003 Golf GL TDI with.

I haven't seen any comments about CVT performance... everybody likes these?

Buy the manual in the HR-V. I drove it and didn't mind it.
 

tikal

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[/QUOTE]
Even with the taller suspension, the Legacy Outback wagon is still a wagon. ;)[/QUOTE]

Is the Legacy wagon still available as new model? My search shows that Subaru dropped the wagon from the 2017 lineup but I might be wrong. According to Subaru the Outback is considered a
Crossover SUV
 
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oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
I would wager they sell very few Legacy Wagons anymore, as most go for the Outback. Which is kinda lame, but such is the poor station wagon's demise.

Regarding Subie's and CVTs, they have had SO MANY problems with them they recently started a new remanufacturing program for them, 2010-present models.
 

tikal

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Thanks bhtooefr for your post regarding MPG and performance the CX-5, RAV4, etc. I always like real life MPG data as much as possible. Unfortunately for the 2016 Toyota RAV4 diesel, Fuelly is not helpful since the model is not available in North America. In the mean time there is the fuel consumption data from the UK government fuel economy site (http://carfueldata.direct.gov.uk/search-new-or-used-cars.aspx?vid=38065). I have converted the numbers to US MPG:

TOYOTA RAV4 FWD 2.0 D-4D Manual with 17'' wheels, 6MT Fuel consumption

Urban (cold) 43.5 MPG
Extra Urban 54.7 MPG
Combined (weighted) 50 MPG

I believe there is one or more European sites that allow for people to log their fuel usage. If I find it for the Toyota RAV4 diesel I will post the information.
 

bhtooefr

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Those numbers are NEDC cycle, and the NEDC cycle is excessively gentle, and is very easily cheated legally. Don't rely on those numbers.

I'll use spritmonitor.de for this... looks like for all RAV4 diesels, there's an average of 7.39 l/100 km. It's 8.56 l/100 km when restricted to automatics. That's 31.8 and 27.5 MPG respectively.

Also, to be completely fair, let's use spritmonitor.de numbers for the RAV4 Hybrid. (I won't use their numbers for the CX-5 - Europeans got a higher compression gas engine, and smaller displacement IIRC.) There, it's 6.93 l/100 km (I know that's not including one of the hybrids in there, though, thanks to someone using the wrong horsepower figure, I had to filter on horsepower and transmission together to get the hybrids), or 33.9 MPG.
 

kjclow

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I know it's convenient to put bicycles in the back of a truck, but if hauling bicycles is your only "hauling" why not a car with a hitch rack?
Have that too, but removed it for a while since it makes using the hatch a little more of a challange. The truck is really more convienent if I am the only one riding. Just roll the bike into the bed and away I go! The truck is also used for kayaks and yard work, but since surgery, haven't done much of either one of those. With the buyback, the truck will become my dd. This will mean that I will have to fill it more than once every other month.
 
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ROD-TDI

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Buy the manual in the HR-V. I drove it and didn't mind it.
Since buying the VW Golf R with its DSG transmission, we've come to realize that this is the way to go, even though we still like our Golf Mk4 and Mk7 manual transmissions. However, the DSG just does things so well that we don't like going back to our manual trans Golfs. Its why we want a 2017 Tiquan TDI with a DSG.

In fact, I talked to a friend today who said he drove a 2017 Hyundai Tucson Sport with its 7-speed dual-clutch auto trans this past weekend and was very impressed. I will now certainly test drive one.
-Rod
 

tikal

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Wow that is a big discrepancy!

Thanks for sharing the information from spritmonitor.de Here is another site that is well known in the UK and it is similar to Edmunds. It let users enter their fuel data. For the Toyota RAV4 (2013 on) 2.0 D-4D 2WD is showing entries between 29 and 45 MPG (converted to US gallons). It shows an average of 39 MPG (US):

http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/realmpg/toyota/rav4-2013/20-d-4d-2wd

The same site it showing an average of 36 MPG (US) for the Honda CR-V (2012 on) 2.2 i-DTEC:

http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/realmpg/honda/cr-v-2012/22-i-dtec

I do not have any reason to think that these estimates either from spritmonitor.de or honestjohn.co.uk are fake so maybe the real average for the RAV4 diesel is somewhere in between these numbers which would put it about the same as the Toyota hybrid RAV4 in the US via Fuelly. Obviously the diesel model will do better in the highway, in the mountainous terrain and in fully loaded and/or towing situations.

Those numbers are NEDC cycle, and the NEDC cycle is excessively gentle, and is very easily cheated legally. Don't rely on those numbers.
I'll use spritmonitor.de for this... looks like for all RAV4 diesels, there's an average of 7.39 l/100 km. It's 8.56 l/100 km when restricted to automatics. That's 31.8 and 27.5 MPG respectively.
Also, to be completely fair, let's use spritmonitor.de numbers for the RAV4 Hybrid. (I won't use their numbers for the CX-5 - Europeans got a higher compression gas engine, and smaller displacement IIRC.) There, it's 6.93 l/100 km (I know that's not including one of the hybrids in there, though, thanks to someone using the wrong horsepower figure, I had to filter on horsepower and transmission together to get the hybrids), or 33.9 MPG.
 

John Kuhn

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I HATE high truck beds, why are trucks so high off the ground now?
It's all about styling--who's got the biggest, toughest bad-boy truck. Same thing with the grills, bigger and bigger, can't imagine how people see over the top of them. Stupid trend, IMO...
 

DPM

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I'm not convinced that NEDC cycles are that "gentle".
My Forester is rated at 38.7/ 52.3/ 46.3 mpg imp, and I generally get somewhere between 40 and 44 (calculated). I've seen over 51mpg on the - surprisingly accurate- dash display for a 100+ mile journey and that was without doing any daft hypermiling...
 

J.R.

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My understanding is that Subaru discontinued the Legacy wagon in Canada a few years back (and in the U.S. a couple years before that), leaving the Outback as the only wagon available in North America built on the Legacy platform.
They may classify it however they like but the Outback is a wagon IMO.
 

tikal

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I'm not convinced that NEDC cycles are that "gentle".
My Forester is rated at 38.7/ 52.3/ 46.3 mpg imp, and I generally get somewhere between 40 and 44 (calculated). I've seen over 51mpg on the - surprisingly accurate- dash display for a 100+ mile journey and that was without doing any daft hypermiling...
Thanks for your feedback. I presume that if the combined estimate from my previous post of 50 MPG is off by as much as 30% (which is huge) I still get a very decent 35 MPG for the Toyota RAV4 diesel
 
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