VW Won't Attempt to Regain Diesel Leadership in US; Many TDI Models May Never Return

[Dorado]

Keeping 2002 TDI...

Hi All!

Sad to hear but not unexpected given small diesels had gone off the market here before...

I'm very happy to keep our 2002 New Beetle TDI - only three mayor issues in 15 years, running a blend of bio and petro D:

* Replaced leaking fuel pump (right around 2007-8-9 when ultra low sulfur D was introduced...).

* Repaired clutch at 150k miles (thanks to Metalnerd here for referring us to McCune Auto east of Pittsburgh, highly recommend them !!).

* A/C compressor needs replaced (not done yet...)

* needs a new white hood (a storm and a tree's fault, not the car's...)

Other than that replaced OEM shock absorbers at 30k w Bilsteins and the car is the same 15yrs and 150k miles, may even drive better...

Also, Just got a 2014 Nissan Leaf, all electric, 70-80 miles on full charge, you can charge at home w just 120v 15amp, Or really anywhere including public charging stations, would recommend as well!... The electric VW Golf is not available in this area yet...

 

[tikal]

Freedom of speech

To me, in the US, more than anywhere else, driving a car is a statement of what "I want' more than what "I need". Plus, if I can make car payments then it is all good whether the 'statement' is a large 4x4, a Tesla or Toureg V12. It all fits in the budget

Strangely enough, these are the same people that buy an entire house of double pane window replacements for $30- $40 K believing that they will "save" energy. They never ask to see the facts of the payback math.

(yet they won't get caught driving a fuel efficient vehicle)

 

[john.jackson9213]

Err, tell that to those poor suckers who bought them!! I'm sure they thought it was criminal to allow them to be sold in the first place after owning them for a couple of MONTHS only!!

I bet they would've liked to have taken GM and the "engineers" that "designed" that turd to the woodshed!!!

I actually owned one. A 1981 Chevy Caprice Wagon with the 350 diesel. Blew a head gasket, took it to the nearest GM dealer (a Pontiac dealer), cost me $650 to fix. 2 months later the other head gasket blew, called the Chevy zone office to complain. They told me to take it to a Chevy dealer and have it inspected. Chevy replaced the head gasket at no charge, but I was out of luck with the first one because I took it to a Pontiac dealer.

 

[Gary Barnhill]

When I was young and a stud there was a lot of: "hey, look at me" about my car choices. Gas mileage was not ever a consideration.

Now past 80 I'm turned on by a car's appearance and I think a 2012 white Passat is one of the freshest and best looking cars on the road today.

It breaks my heart there will be no 2019 all-new TDI Passat. That was plan A.

It breaks my heart even more that we don't' get the Passat wagon anymore, which I owned 2008 to 2013. It's still beautiful. I'd buy even if 18 mpg.

I may have to gag on low mpg and get a Volvo V9 wagon or Benz E400 wagon next year. I'm torn. Once spoiled by 40 mpg overall diesel it's tough to face 22-24 overall in a Premium gasser. And neither one looks as good as the Euro Passat wagon. You will laugh when I reveal I drive about 3,000 miles per year.

 

[pparks1]

At only 3,000 miles per year, if you got 40MPG, you would only have to fill the 18.5 gallon tank of the Passat just 4 times per year. I wish that I could fill up my car once a quarter.

 

[Gary Barnhill]

Top Off

I top off when it gets to half tank and I'm near a favorite station that is 30 cents less than some others.

I probably spend $170 on diesel last year. Thrilled that Costco now has diesel at a few locations. Oh, and I get 4% back on my Costco card.

MPG is a game with me. I work at it.

When I was an airline pilot I designed a fuel saving program that saved the company about $70 million a year. No, there was no bonus.

 

[rwolff]

We had gasoline powered cars in the mid '80's with great fuel mileage. Does anyone remember the Chevrolet Sprint? 54MPG on RUG.

It did not sell too well.

Mitsubishi imported the Plymouth Champ and the Dodge Colt with fuel mileage near 40MPG.

Again, didn't sell well.

Don't forget the Honda Civic VX (last year was '91 or '92). Can't recall the exact numbers, but I remember a newspaper review that told how it beat the VW diesel in fuel economy.

* Car with manual transmission -- No Thank you
* Midsize wagon with a diesel or an efficient gas engine (think of Mazda 6 or similar) -- No Thank you

Throw in the ability to hold a full-size spare, and decent sight lines, and you've just described what I want.

 

[turbobrick240]

I top off when it gets to half tank and I'm near a favorite station that is 30 cents less than some others.
I probably spent $170 on diesel last year. Thrilled that Costco now has diesel at a few locations. Oh, and I get 4% back on my Costco card.
MPG is a game with me. I work at it.
When I was an airline pilot I designed a fuel saving program that saved the company about $70 million a year. No, there was no bonus.

I have also been spoiled by the 40+mpg my golf gets. Previous to this tdi I always thought of 30 mpg as great mileage. Now 30 mpg seems pretty abysmal. My grandfather worked for the USAF as an analyst for 30+ years. He wrote an algorithm for determining when to service/replace jet engines that saved the taxpayers many, many millions. He was very proud of that- as he should have been.

 

[gopher]

GM diesel alternative to VW

GM spokesman have repeatedly stated their intention to bring the Whisper 1.6L diesel engine to the Chevy Cruze by the 2018 model year in the U.S. This engine is very well received in Europe and hopefully will return 50+ highway mpg in the U.S. version (the previous Cruze diesel was rated 45 mpg with a larger engine). So there will soon be a reasonably priced and modern alternative to VW diesel offerings and this is worth waiting for.

 

[tikal]

GM spokesman have repeatedly stated their intention to bring the Whisper 1.6L diesel engine to the Chevy Cruze by the 2018 model year in the U.S. This engine is very well received in Europe and hopefully will return 50+ highway mpg in the U.S. version (the previous Cruze diesel was rated 45 mpg with a larger engine). So there will soon be a reasonably priced and modern alternative to VW diesel offerings and this is worth waiting for.

What we need is the more "bang for the money" approach in my view. Larger vehicles (not enormous) with a light duty diesel engine.

We do not need a Corolla size vehicle with a diesel engine but "a not too big" SUV with a diesel engine. Why bother with small cars in the US. Who is going to buy it? A small minority at best.

 

[pparks1]

Agreed, no matter how good the fuel economy of the Cruze is, it's too small for family vacations and the daughters dance competitions. We filled the Passat to the brim in the trunk, any less and it won't work. Give me a Malibu or Impala with a diesel option and we might have a chance.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

 

[oilhammer]

What we need is the more "bang for the money" approach in my view. Larger vehicles (not enormous) with a light duty diesel engine.
We do not need a Corolla size vehicle with a diesel engine but "a not too big" SUV with a diesel engine. Why bother with small cars in the US. Who is going to buy it? A small minority at best.

The Cruze (with the gas engine) sells quite well actually. As do many other small(er) cars. They may not sell in as great of numbers as the middle sized cars and certainly not in the volume that big trucks are sold in this country, but they DO sell. It is hardly a small minority. In fact, excluding trucks and SUVs, the Honda Civic was #4 in sales in 2015, followed by the Corolla in the #5 spot. Other small cars that sold well are the Elantra at #8, the above mentioned Cruze was #9, and the Sentra was #10, and if you include the top 20 you'll also be including the Focus, Jetta, and Versa in the mix, with the Versa being the only subcompact on there. Cars like the Yaris, Accent, Fiesta, Sonic, and Spark evidently are not as sought after...although I do see a LOT of the little Chevy models around here. So clearly not ALL Americans are lacking in common sense.

Of course, even with the disappointing year for the new uglier-than-ever aluminum body F150, 2015 sales figures of that one single model probably are more than the first 3 top selling car models combined. Given the volume of fleet sales that pickups still get, though, it kind of is a little misleading, though.

 

[jmasciulli]

In today's Wall Street Journal. http://www.wsj.com/articles/volkswa...ing-diesel-cars-back-to-u-s-market-1473781040

 

[tikal]

Thanks Brian for the information in your post above. It is good to know about these stats. I still think that a light duty diesel engine would be a better 'investment' in a mid-size sedan and minivans, mid-size SUVs and the like. But at the end it really does not matter what I think but rather where the market forces and consumer preferences are going. If you could put a graph of the average weight of the US non-commercial fleet my bet is that since the 70s (oil embargo time frame) it has been going up and up and the average MPG going mostly down.

 

[narongc73]

In today's Wall Street Journal. http://www.wsj.com/articles/volkswa...ing-diesel-cars-back-to-u-s-market-1473781040

I couldn't care less if VW didn't bring more diesels here. I'll just continue to drive their older models until the wheels fall off or until I can't find parts. I don't plan to buy the latest craptastic models with dpf, etc.

 

[TDIMeister]

* Car with manual transmission -- No Thank you
* Midsize wagon with a diesel or an efficient gas engine (think of Mazda 6 or similar) -- No Thank you

Throw in the ability to hold a full-size spare, and decent sight lines, and you've just described what I want.

All these describe exactly my car - plus AWD!

 

[oilhammer]

... I still think that a light duty diesel engine would be a better 'investment' in a mid-size sedan and minivans, mid-size SUVs and the like. But at the end it really does not matter what I think but rather where the market forces and consumer preferences are going. If you could put a graph of the average weight of the US non-commercial fleet my bet is that since the 70s (oil embargo time frame) it has been going up and up and the average MPG going mostly down.

Totally agree. Although much of the heft an thirst of the newer vehicles is driven by safety standards, because we cannot seem to just LEARN to drive properly and not crash into one another. Driver's licenses are FAR too easy to obtain and keep, IMHO.

 

[MrSprdSheet]

Even the very latest announced 100kwh Tesla would not allow me to drive from SLC to Las Vegas without a major re-charging stop..... That won't cut it on a road trip and SLC to Las Vegas is not that far -- about 425 miles depending on where you stop and where you end in Vegas.

425 is already getting a little creative, to make the case against Tesla. Even if one did this, instead of maybe flying, the coming 100kwh non-P Model S will likely be rated for 340 miles. With A/C, maybe ~300. Start full, and you're looking at a 30 minute pit stop, to get the last 125 miles of charge.

Light duty diesel is done:
-Too expensive (maint), and increasingly only for those who "must"
-Comes up short of upcoming 55-60CAFE, and 95gr/km CO2 rules

Just this week, VW announced its fast-DC charging corridors. Looks like they went coastal-only with about 100 stations (I-95, etc). The standard will meet the Bolt's and the i3's CCS outlet. So, I see frustration coming from the reality that what you drive, and where you live, will never be as distinct as they will become over the next 5-10 years.

What's comical is that electric rates are cheapest where EVs aren't being adopted. Utilities are my job, and I've seen countless off-peak utility rates near a nickel/kwh. Watch out for when range over-comes the need for infrastructure in these places. The Commerce department tracks household expenditures at 3-4% your "gas bill", and only about 1.8% your electric. I bet most won't leave that "raise" on the table.

 

[HBarlow]

425 is already getting a little creative, to make the case against Tesla. Even if one did this, instead of maybe flying, the coming 100kwh non-P Model S will likely be rated for 340 miles. With A/C, maybe ~300. Start full, and you're looking at a 30 minute pit stop, to get the last 125 miles of charge.

Light duty diesel is done:
-Too expensive (maint), and increasingly only for those who "must"
-Comes up short of upcoming 55-60CAFE, and 95gr/km CO2 rules

Just this week, VW announced its fast-DC charging corridors. Looks like they went coastal-only with about 100 stations (I-95, etc). The standard will meet the Bolt's and the i3's CCS outlet. So, I see frustration coming from the reality that what you drive, and where you live, will never be as distinct as they will become over the next 5-10 years.

What's comical is that electric rates are cheapest where EVs aren't being adopted. Utilities are my job, and I've seen countless off-peak utility rates near a nickel/kwh. Watch out for when range over-comes the need for infrastructure in these places. The Commerce department tracks household expenditures at 3-4% your "gas bill", and only about 1.8% your electric. I bet most won't leave that "raise" on the table.

Is that your opinion that "light duty diesel is done?"

I disagree strongly. You're probably speaking for yourself and possibly many who live in the crowded northeastern states with short commutes.

Those of us who live in the wide open space of west Texas and other western states travel longer distances as a routine matter. I live in a rural county about fifty miles from the nearest large city and although I'm retired and don't commute every day when I do need to travel to Lubbock for shopping, to visit friends, for car or truck service, or doctor appointments it's a 120+ mile trip. Diesels are perfect for my wants and needs.

I've driven a series of large, heavy, Cummins diesel powered Dodge Ram duallies used to pull large rvs for more than fifteen years. My TDI is a lot more practical, economical, and fun to drive than the heavy truck for commuting duties.

I will continue to drive light duty diesels as long as I'm driving a car.

 

[respond2us]

I think it's all just dependent on what each individual needs/wants. For my wife and I, the TDI is amazing because we're huge road trippers. We live in Oklahoma and rarely fly. We've driven almost everywhere in the CONUS, and taking a trip to Maine in a couple weeks in my JSW to pick up a camper. A gas car just wouldn't cut the mustard for me. Yes, there are cars that get 40mpg, but they're the "Eco" tuned cars that can't tow 2000 lbs. Plus, I love the longevity of a diesel motor. I drove my last Jetta to 292k miles and it still ran like new. Sold it for $3k, bought my JSW for $6k, factor in the VW cash of roughly $2500... I basically traded the cars.
I could see a midsize suv selling ok in the states, as long as it had a good mpg vs. power balance. When BMW brought the 335d to the US, I was so blown away by its torque. However, averaging 23mpg over the few months we had it just wasn't good. Way too heavy toward power, too little mpg. Again, depends on individual needs.

As for my wife and I... We're damn happy with our TDI's and will likely drive them for a lot more years.

 

[michTDI]

"Driver's licenses are FAR too easy to obtain and keep, IMHO. "

TOTALLY AGREE. Way too many distracted, inconsiderate, aggressive BOZOs "driving" around these days. Looking at cell phones-causing weaving-even "expressing with their hand(s)" while talking on a cell phone (they can't see you moron-keep your hand(s) on the wheel). At least HALF the people driving don't signal their turns, don't bother to do a "head check" before changing lanes, etc. Not to mention people driving around with brake lights burnt out!!! Where is a cop when you need one.....

I feel better now........off rant.

 

[oilhammer]

...
I disagree strongly. You're probably speaking for yourself and possibly many who live in the crowded northeastern states with short commutes.

Those of us who live in the wide open space of west Texas and other western states travel longer distances as a routine matter. I live in a rural county about fifty miles from the nearest large city and although I'm retired and don't commute every day when I do need to travel to Lubbock for shopping, to visit friends, for car or truck service, or doctor appointments it's a 120+ mile trip. Diesels are perfect for my wants and needs.

...

I will continue to drive light duty diesels as long as I'm driving a car.

That is my feeling, too. It is ~100 miles round trip from my house to just about anywhere, short of the local Walmart and a few places in town like Tractor Supply, etc. I CHOSE to live out in the sticks, because I wanted to be in a quiet area with no neighbors directly piled on top of me, a big quiet yard, and the sounds of crickets and spring peepers outside. I would not give it up for anything.

If no more new diesels are sold here, so be it. I'll keep the ones I have, horde as many more as I can, and motor on.

 

[MrSprdSheet]

Is that your opinion that "light duty diesel is done?"

I disagree strongly. You're probably speaking for yourself and possibly many who live in the crowded northeastern states with short commutes.

Losing the manual transmission is akin to what I'm trying to say.

I don't think diesel, objectively, has a place even in the Texas to Maine scenario. How many product offerings do we expect car companies will continue with, if multiple hybrids can match/easily exceed diesel's efficiency? Maintenance costs? By "light duty is done", I'm looking at current manufacturer disposition, recent events and future regulations, and seeing the writing on the wall. Loyalists will be loyal. People will buy more expensive 114 mile i3s, instead of 238 mile Bolts. But for however much some might like small diesels, I think these people, TDIClub, are becoming a shrinking cohort. VW has to maintain a brand, and no matter the fairness we assess to the whole dieselgate situation, the CEO of North America has spoken and it sounds like they don't want to risk the taint of pushing diesel, anymore. Who else was there, in any material numbers?

 

[HBarlow]

I'm not sure what your point was but I continue to believe you are wrong.

Diesels are very popular with drivers who value a wide and flat low rpm high torque performance band produced by a rugged and durable small displacement engine with great fuel economy.

Small displacement turbo diesels are very popular all over Europe and Asia. They are also quite popular in the US even though our corrupt and misguided government is trying to regulate them out of existence with higher federal fuel taxes on diesel than gasoline and ridiculous and growingly impossible fuel economy standards and unreasonable emission standards.

Personally I would rather walk or ride a bicycle than drive an electric car. Electric cars will never be popular where I live or in other western states.

 

[bhtooefr]

Except the problem is that there are vehicles that can easily meet those emissions standards, that are far more popular, far lower maintenance demands than even an ALH (so before you can really argue that emissions standards "hurt" TDIs - and back then, diesels were given allowances to emit more than gasoline vehicles), and more efficient than TDIs - even when the TDIs are cheating.

And, that's with almost 600 miles range, despite the 11.3 gallon tank, in the case of the one I own.

 

[aja8888]

Except the problem is that there are vehicles that can easily meet those emissions standards, that are far more popular, far lower maintenance demands than even an ALH (so before you can really argue that emissions standards "hurt" TDIs - and back then, diesels were given allowances to emit more than gasoline vehicles), and more efficient than TDIs - even when the TDIs are cheating.

And, that's with almost 600 miles range, despite the 11.3 gallon tank, in the case of the one I own.

Well,if you "own one", and don't own a TDI any longer, maybe you should be spending your time over on the Prius boards instead of here?

 

[wxman]

Although meeting emission regulations may be a cost issue for diesel vehicles, they clearly are NOT a technical issue. The 2017 BMW 328d is arguably the lowest emission vehicle in the U.S. market (from what I've been able to determine at least), based on official emission certs.


2017 BMW 328d vs 2017 Volt (TZEV) vs. 2017 Prius Eco (AT-PZEV)

(Grams/Mile)



Emission....................................328d......................Volt (TZEV)…………….…………Prius Eco (AT-PZEV)


NMOG+NOx (Composite*)............0.008......................0.007 (+0.003 VOC)….……0.0147 (+0.002 VOC)
CO (Composite*).........................0.05….....................0.15………………………………….0.14
PM**.........................................0.0002....................Not Reported…………………..0.0004




*weighted average of FTP/US06/SC03 emissions @ UL
**per EPA cert

 

[BuyMeBackSoon]

Electric cars will never be popular where I live or in other western states.

I think they said that about electric typewriters as well as the first cars to roll into western towns filled with cowboys on horseback. Maybe not tomorrow, but electric or some yet to be invented power sourced vehicle will ride the range.

 

[john.jackson9213]

"Driver's licenses are FAR too easy to obtain and keep, IMHO. "

TOTALLY AGREE. Way too many distracted, inconsiderate, aggressive BOZOs "driving" around these days. Looking at cell phones-causing weaving-even "expressing with their hand(s)" while talking on a cell phone (they can't see you moron-keep your hand(s) on the wheel). At least HALF the people driving don't signal their turns, don't bother to do a "head check" before changing lanes, etc. Not to mention people driving around with brake lights burnt out!!! Where is a cop when you need one.....

I feel better now........off rant.

Sorry to say this, but not having a driver's license doesn't stop anyone from driving. About all a driver's license does is assures some minimum level of awareness.

 

[tadawson]

What we need is the more "bang for the money" approach in my view. Larger vehicles (not enormous) with a light duty diesel engine.

We do not need a Corolla size vehicle with a diesel engine but "a not too big" SUV with a diesel engine. Why bother with small cars in the US. Who is going to buy it? A small minority at best.

I don't want an SUV, period! I find them to be the most useless bodge of transportation that has been built in years. High center of gravity to ensure instability . . High profile to ensure drag, and amazingly bad use of interior space. If I want to haul, I use a truck . . . If I want to travel, I use a real car - sedan preferably . . . the "Sport Ute" to me has zero fit . . .