Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

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CSR Penfab

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Which pretty much means that it's legal, when you look at the list of conditions that are approved for use.
Anyone in CA can get a medical MJ card in about 30 minutes. Just plop down your $40 at "Dr. 420 (real place) or any other conveniently located MJ doc near a dispensary. Complain about your sore knee, insomnia, or stress, and you'll get an Rx. Medical MJ in CA is a big joke.
 

bubbagumpshrimp

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Anyone in CA can get a medical MJ card in about 30 minutes. Just plop down your $40 at "Dr. 420 (real place) or any other conveniently located MJ doc near a dispensary. Complain about your sore knee, insomnia, or stress, and you'll get an Rx. Medical MJ in CA is a big joke.
I don't think it's a joke. What they did was make it so that anyone that wants it can get it legally. Pretty clever, in my opinion.

WHAT ILLNESSES ARE COVERED?
Prop. 215 lists “cancer, anorexia, AIDS, chronic pain, spasticity, glaucoma, arthritis, migraine, or any other illness for which marijuana provides relief. Physicians have recommended marijuana for hundreds of indications, including such common complaints as insomnia, PMS, post-traumatic stress, depression, and substance abuse.

http://www.canorml.org/medical-marijuana/patients-guide-to-california-law
 

rac

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i wouldn't say that current owners savvily waited for VW to "do the right thing" with the rumored buyback. More like we appear to be lucky in that the EPA's tough stance and the multiple pending lawsuits have pushed VW to this supposed conclusion.

Suppose that common sense had prevailed and the matter was settled by grandfathering the cars and fining VW. TDI owners would have been left with cars without a secondary market. (Outside of this forum, of course). It's exactly the same position as today. I can't fault someone for getting as much as they could by selling early. Cars are a depreciating asset and an annuity of expense. Plenty of approaches to managing the cash outflows.
 

dslman

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I doubt anyone who bought a used TDI after the cheat was announced gets anything.
How would that work though?


That buyer would just keep driving & skip everything? That would not work out for them to get the cars off the road.

Another big question I have that I've never heard anyone talking about is:
They keep saying 500,000 cars (or whatever).

Is that number based on:
  • How many were actually sold?
OR
  • How many are currently Registered?


If it's based on how many were sold, then that number is going to be considerably lower to buyback, plus all the leased vehicles don't count, VW just gets their Leased Vehicles (aka rentals) back.



Every week 52 weeks a year there are hundreds of VW TDI's being wrecked, totaled, & sold at salvage auctions across the country. Some are repairable, many are totaled, I'd like to know what happens with those dieselgate cars.


Just 1 example, as of 3:00 PM 6/11/2016: there are nearly 3700 Wrecked VW's just on this one site alone, figure about 25% of those are TDI.


Those auctions roll through like clockwork, next month there will be another 3700 (or more) all new wrecks, JUST VW ONLY.

For comparison, Chevrolet has 20,400 wrecks a month & FORD has 21,500.
 

maybe368

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I agree with you. But they should just make it legal and stop the "medical" charade. 80% of buyers in CA have no real "medical" use.
I agree a thousand percent. The trouble is that the capitalists are getting involved and they are setting it up so the a very few will reap all the rewards. It is coming up for a vote in AZ in November and is likely to pass, but I don't like how they have worded it. I am thinking of voting against it to try to get a better law. I'll say it, capitalism sucks. :D...Mark
 

bring

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How would that work though?
That buyer would just keep driving & skip everything? That would not work out for them to get the cars off the road.[/ QUOTE]

They would have to get it fixed and wouldn't get the extra $ since they bought it after the Dieselgate depreciation
 
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romad

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How would that work though?
That buyer would just keep driving & skip everything? That would not work out for them to get the cars off the road.[/ QUOTE]

They would have to get it fixed and wouldn't get the best extra $ since they bought it after the Dieselgate depreciation
I don't think Judge Breyer would allow VW to refuse to buyback a car based on purchase date. However, he could allow them to limit the buyback to the price paid rather than the price the original owner paid.
 

Jeta Life

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I wanted to point out that the settlement will not include any incentives to purchase a new VW, and here's why. This isn't meant to be a sales campaign for VW. It is punishment for multiple counts of consumer fraud. If Feinburger (ultimately the judge) wants a high acceptance rate, there will be no incentives to purchase a new vehicle. Might as well open that deal up too the general public too. If they want to incentivize in addition to equal compensation across the board, and a later date, then great. But it can't be part of the original settlement because not everyone will want a new car. So it can't be a factor.
Feinberg is a man that is known to get results. When he compared the loss of life to our TDIs he helped put this whole mess into perspective. Having dealt with human loss made him a sort of curious choice for Volkswagen. For him I would guess he thought this would be an easy case, we'll soon see how high the "acceptance rate" is. Dealing with a high profile attorney should make this a little easier, we hope.

Tying the settlement to a trade in does complicate matters. I've test driven two TSIs, a Jetta and Passat. I was left unimpressed with TSI's engine as I may someday miss EA189. I TSIs engine was better suited for Jetta's smaller chassis than large Passat, which has a V6 out there that makes a better match for it.

I would guess EA189 is a better fit for Passat than TSI's engine, just guessing. It must of been "quite the decision" when corporate decided to produce NMS Passat with the EA189. Gen 2s got the emissions hardware in place and with the larger chassis I would guess make for easier retrofitting of any additional required hardware.

Recent posts to me suggest most want out of their TDI. I got more than I bargained for. But I'm lucky, healthy and still able to work and thankfully employed. There's no hard feelings between me and VW. All I am is one customer. When you buy a car sometimes you get excited. The test drive, the TDI reputation, the safety connected feel, for others maybe other things.
In the end it will just be remembered as a bad science experiment and perhaps a study in corporate ethics. A recent article I read suggested US sales have only been off 10% the past 8 months. That surprised me. The stock price is still pretty stable too.

What I see as the problem is VWs lineup, not so much a sales decline due to Dieselgate. Demographics are used by automakers to make production decisions. Looks like the consumer "feeding frenzy" on SUVs and crossovers has not let up. That was one key product stream VW missed. More and more families are choosing crossovers than minivans so I doubt the Microbus will make much of a comeback. The Transporter California looks cool but I see fewer and fewer minivans around my way and more and more Pickup trucks.

A typical American driveway now usually has a beater (4 banger commuter car), an SUV and maybe a recreational vehicle such as a Pick Up or sports car. 3 cars per driveway is a very common sight around my way. Maybe even a classic car in the garage for the occassional enthusiast.
So the decisions we make soon are a sort of a reflection on what we like to see ourselves in. You may want to call me rather boring but I still like sedans. I always have. That's pretty corny these days. That's really the only chance VW has to keep me, a great deal on a 2016 Passat R Line, otherwise I'm probably gone.
 

dslman

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They would have to get it fixed and wouldn't get the extra $ since they bought it after the Dieselgate depreciation
I don't think there will be a fix for GEN1, which means purchase Price Buyback.

GEN1 may be able to meet their limits with enough money thrown at it, but I do not believe they will even offer any such FIX at all for GEN1.

GEN2? Way up in the air.

GEN3? Most likely an easy fix.
 

dslman

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I don't think Judge Breyer would allow VW to refuse to buyback a car based on purchase date. However, he could allow them to limit the buyback to the price paid rather than the price the original owner paid.
Exactly.

FULL price paid is not the same as MSRP.

If an owner bought a used car for $15,000, they're not going to get MSRP buyback, they would get Full Price Paid back.

It's all in the Details, and I have a feeling even after June 21, there are still going to be unanswered questions.

  • What date of Purchases qualify?
  • What about Salvage Titles?

If there is no date of Purchase exemptions, it's going to create havoc people trying to make a buck buying up all the used TDI's they can find, but this won't be an issue if the buyback is for Full Price Paid (NOT MSRP) and a dated purchase qualification for the extra compensation money.


SO for example, an owner who just bought a TDI Last week for $9000 would only get $9000 buyback and not qualify for Generous Compensation.
 
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gmcjetpilot

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Given there are hundreds of thousands of us, the easy answer is yes. They have been suffering from this and will suffer if they lose a significent percentage of us as customers. Do you seriously argue otherwise?
If that helps you sleep at night.... That is pretty petty world you live in. Do
take satisfaction in seeing people or animals suffer? You scare me. :eek:
 

Clark Addison

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I bought my Sportwagen TDI in 2010. I've driven it 60,000 miles. I don't believe in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy. Therefore I'm not expecting to get back what I paid for it.

Retail value prior to Dieselgate and a great deal on a new GTI would make me a happy camper.
 

gmcjetpilot

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Some will continue to drink the kool aid.

The $1,000 was great, and they promised 100% transparency. How long ago was that? Have you read the articles where there is documented proof that VW has been anything BUT transparent? Where has the transparency happened? I seem to have missed it.

Employees ordered to destroy evidence. Court filings where they shirk responsibility. Low level managers thrown under the bus. Only a handful of employees, they claim, were responsible for this. Yet, we come to find out this was institutional fraud from the bottom to the top. Even a PowerPoint presentation documenting how to cheat emissions.

Fact is this is corporate greed. Owners of VW's are the victims. As is the environment, and every American who has to breathe the noxious fumes these dirty vehicles spew.

You cannot beat me with facts. The truth is the truth. I happen to have read almost every article I could on this. I also know a little about consumer law. The facts support my stance. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Oh and I've already picked out my Mercedes GLS 550. No Prius or Hyundai for me. Once the deal is announced I will be parking my Passat for good and getting behind the wheel of my new car. Easily the best car I've ever driven, by a large margin.
No cool aid, just a rational and objective analysis of facts, no conspiracy theories
and unsubstantiated claims. I can see you don't let facts get in the way. I personally
am not aggrieved. If you want to lose your s***t feel free dude. I think you are being
hyperbolic and spew overly emotional irrelevant rhetoric.

No bubble burst, your logic is a massive non sequitur. No offense, you're incapable
of a debate based on your lack of grasping facts and communication skills.

"Victims"? Boo Who! Waaa, cry, sniff, gnashing of teeth, WHY ME!!! My gosh man,
get a grip. That is an insult to people who are true victims in life. This is a minor
inconvenience to me, may be a PIA for others, but victum? Ha ha! Get out of town.

There is NO DEBATE, they screwed up, VW admits it. VW is game to make good
with fines and yet fully defined fixes and compensation. You want to repeat the
guilt and victimhood rhetoric ad naueseum. You are making a straw man argument.
No one doubts VW did this intentionally and it did affect consumers, owners. It is
your level of outrage I find irrational.

As far as your self brag about you entertaining a Benz GLS 550, Ha ha! Whatever.
That appeal to authority does not impress. The GLS 550's critical reviews are kind
of low, and it can cost over $100,000, so it shows your lack of judgment and the
old adage "A fool and their money are soon parted". I don't believe you.

Depreciation or lease cost on a Benz GLS in 4 years could buy a new Golf R outright.
Apples and oranges. If I wanted a $70K base GLS 550, I'd wait six years and get one
for $20K, like all Benz's, with 28% residual value after 6 years. The parts and repair
cost are so high people can't wait to dump those money pits. Sorry to burst your
cool aid bubble. People like you, low facts and logic and victim perspective does
fascinate me.
 
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byundt

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Possible buyback deal structured for high acceptance

If VW needs to get a high percentage of people either fixing their car or getting it off the road, they can't discriminate against people who bought their VW after the scandal became known. If they did discriminate, people who bought after the scandal became known are likely to keep driving

I believe VW could get high acceptance if they offered people up to three choices:

  • Buyback, at pre-scandal trade-in price plus cash incentive. This lets people buy a different brand car to replace their VW.
  • Trade-in for brand new VW, same model & options. Possible deduction for miles used. There could be negotiations between you and dealer for the cash difference should you want a different model VAG product.
  • Fix the emissions on the car, plus cash incentive, plus warranty on emissions system (assuming such a fix is approved by CARB & EPA). This lets people keep their car.

Anybody who wants to be done with VW is cashed out at a favorable price. Folks willing to stick with VW get a good deal, keeping dealers happy and factories humming. People who love their existing car gets to keep it, with the possible exception of those in California who don't want a fix.

Driveable cars with salvage title would be handled separately, and with less generous terms. I also assume that VW would negotiate with insurance companies to assure that newly totalled cars have their engines rendered unrepairable.
 

romad

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I don't think Judge Breyer would allow VW to refuse to buyback a car based on purchase date. However, he could allow them to limit the buyback to the price paid rather than the price the original owner paid.
Exactly.

FULL price paid is not the same as MSRP.

If an owner bought a used car for $15,000, they're not going to get MSRP buyback, they would get Full Price Paid back.

It's all in the Details, and I have a feeling even after June 21, there are still going to be unanswered questions.

  • What date of Purchases qualify?
  • What about Salvage Titles?

If there is no date of Purchase exemptions, it's going to create havoc people trying to make a buck buying up all the used TDI's they can find, but this won't be an issue if the buyback is for Full Price Paid (NOT MSRP) and a dated purchase qualification for the extra compensation money.


SO for example, an owner who just bought a TDI Last week for $9000 would only get $9000 buyback and not qualify for Generous Compensation.
There, I fixed it for you. You had attributed my post to bring! :D
 

dslman

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.....


  • Buyback, at pre-scandal trade-in price plus cash incentive. This lets people buy a different brand car to replace their VW.
This will never work.

Even high Private Party and top condition + Generous compensation will not reach their goals of 90% to 97% acceptance, AND No Lawsuits Necessary.

Offering Trade-in Value blows everything their aiming for out of the water.

It would only piss everyone off, and with no fix for GEN1, OR even with a FIX for GEN1 that results in lost power and -4MPG loss of Fuel Mileage.


It's so clear to me, it would never ever even come close to their goals IMO.


Kenneth Feinberg is a smart man, I'm sure both HE and VW Understands there will be NO DISCOUNTING on this settlement, and they understand what they owe each of us.


I don't even know if full purchase price plus additional damages and fees would result in 90% to 97% acceptance success.


The Goodwill offer of $1000 was FREE No Strings Attached MONEY, and even that, what percentage of eligible owners accepted it?
 

CSR Penfab

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This will never work.

Even high Private Party and top condition + Generous compensation will not reach their goals of 90% to 97% acceptance, AND No Lawsuits Necessary.

Offering Trade-in Value blows everything their aiming for out of the water.

It would only piss everyone off, and with no fix for GEN1, OR even with a FIX for GEN1 that results in lost power and -4MPG loss of Fuel Mileage.


It's so clear to me, it would never ever even come close to their goals IMO.


Kenneth Feinberg is a smart man, I'm sure both HE and VW Understands there will be NO DISCOUNTING on this settlement, and they understand what they owe each of us.


I don't even know if full purchase price plus additional damages and fees would result in 90% to 97% acceptance success.


The Goodwill offer of $1000 was FREE No Strings Attached MONEY, and even that, what percentage of eligible owners accepted it?
Well said. And anyone who passed on $1k goodwill money is a downright effing idiot. I know at least one guy who did, but he's also suspicious of black helicopters flying around and he refuses to use a cell phone since the govt is listening in.....
 

thanksimgruven

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The $1,000 Goodwill package was not $1,000. It was a $500 pre-paid Visa card and $500 that could only be spent on parts or labor for a derelict vehicle which will be bought back. And 3 years of free road-side assistance on said vehicle. Doesn't look so "Goodwill" anymore does it?
 

da_jokker

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The $1,000 Goodwill package was not $1,000. It was a $500 pre-paid Visa card and $500 that could only be spent on parts or labor for a derelict vehicle which will be bought back. And 3 years of free road-side assistance on said vehicle. Doesn't look so "Goodwill" anymore does it?
And from my understanding accepting the goodwill waved your right to sue in any court other than vw home state.... Or something like that.
 

nucklehead

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And from my understanding accepting the goodwill waved your right to sue in any court other than vw home state.... Or something like that.
My understanding is there was NO strings attached to the goodwill cards. That has been stated many many times in this thread. Even the paperwork that came with the two cards stated that.
 

CSR Penfab

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My understanding is there was NO strings attached to the goodwill cards. That has been stated many many times in this thread. Even the paperwork that came with the two cards stated that.

Totally correct. Only those who wear tinfoil hats were suspicious of the $1k in goodwill and missed out due to their paranoia. At least my cards got me a new Ruger .357 and the first service on my T-reg. Beyond that, VW has done nothing to reassure me.
 

dslman

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I don't care how easy the fix is - I care about what the fix does to the car's performance
Most likely nothing on GEN3. It may reduce MPG, but even there, they may be able to adjust EGR, & SCR consumption increase where there's very little to no loss MPG.
Although NOBODY has tested GEN3 for NOx Real World driving, This Video comes about as close as I can find as to what cheat mode on a GEN3 may do:
How Volkswagen Diesels Perform in 'Cheat Mode' | Consumer Reports
If you watch that video, they figured out how to run both a GEN1 car and a GEN3 car in cheat mode and normal mode then compared the results:


Power Loss:
GEN3 car had no power loss measured in CHEAT mode nor emissions mode.
GEN1 car DID have power loss measured in emissions mode.


MPG:
GEN1 car dropped from 50MPG down to 46MPG. (-4 MPG LOSS)
GEN3 car MPG dropped from 53MPG to 50MPG, (-3MPG drop)


SO, it appears GEN3 does have something going on there with the CHEAT mode, however I believe it could be a fix as simple as a software update, and they may be able to tune it where there's NO MPG loss, just more DEF Consumption, and if that's the case, they'll probably just supply you with some discount and/or some amount of free or discounted DEF.

Of course all of this is also dependent on Reliability after such a fix.
 

maybe368

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Totally correct. Only those who wear tinfoil hats were suspicious of the $1k in goodwill and missed out due to their paranoia. At least my cards got me a new Ruger .357 and the first service on my T-reg. Beyond that, VW has done nothing to reassure me.
Totally correct, I consulted my attorney before I accepted them and he said have at it, there are no strings...Mark
 

dslman

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The $1,000 Goodwill package was not $1,000. It was a $500 pre-paid Visa card and $500 that could only be spent on parts or labor for a derelict vehicle which will be bought back. And 3 years of free road-side assistance on said vehicle. Doesn't look so "Goodwill" anymore does it?
I easily sold 3 of our VW ONLY GOODWILL CARDS for $400 each, (ebay/Craigslist) so it was $900 in FREE CASH for all 3 of us, my pocket, my Nephew's pocket, and my Friends pocket. $900 Cash EACH.

I have no use for roadside assistance, but I do still have it.
 
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dslman

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No chance in hell
This response reminds me of all those hundreds of posts going back in this thread that all said:


"BUYBACKS? HA HA HA, NO CHANCE IN HELL WILL THERE BE ANY BUYBACKS. NOBODY IS GETTING THEIR MONEY BACK, THOSE EXPECTING A BUYBACK ARE GOING TO BE VERY DISAPPOINTED!"


Yea, you bet!
 
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