Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

[czeetah]

I interpreted "vehicles" as meaning "land vehicles", so my post refers only to wind "powered" land vehicles.

Well they weren't making these 100:years ago

 

[JSWTDI09]

Come on guys, let's not make this thread any more useless than it already is. Please try to keep this thread on topic. Alternative fuel vehicles DO NOT belong here (no matter how entertaining they may be).

Have Fun!

Don

 

[bizzle]

Misguided ? Why ?
Certainly not misguided for someone who wants to trade-in their car, and not obvious to me why auctions and private sale prices would not move in the same direction; in fact, along similar percentage trajectories.

The article certainly does not support the notion thrown out here that the value of TDIs will increase due to low supply. VW is storing the cars returned to them and yet the prices on the remaining cars available is dropping. That seems consistent with the reports of VW dealerships having few shoppers -- demand for VW cars is down, and demand for VW diesels down even further.

A contradicting datum is VW sales, but I don't know specifics of how they count or what the latest period covers.

Of course it's not obvious to you...you've been singing the same tune with all your posts: being deliberately obtuse. At least I think, hope, it's deliberate

You genuinely don't understand why wholesale prices might go down while private sale prices don't?

First of all, the largest volume auction participants are precluded from selling TDI's in the country. There are some dealerships that might be able to sell their TDIs on another lot, but why bother? They certainly aren't going to spend a lot of cash stockpiling TDI's on their Honda and Subaru lots hoping someone looking for one of those decides to give a news pummeled TDI a test drive.

There might be some huge dealers willing to stockpile their inventory in a warehouse somewhere while they wait for the EPA green light. But those buyers are going to have the muscle and pocketbooks to drive the prices down on the "tainted" cars at an auction.

Have you ever been to a car auction? I have, not because I worked at a car dealership, but because my Dart was towed off a city street when I blew a headgasket and I had to try and get it back. The carburetor was worth over $300 dollars alone and that's what I paid to get my Dart back. Everyone was paying 2-3x for Hondas and Toyotas that probably flew off their lots as soon as they unloaded them. I don't think anyone even bothered to bid on my muscle car. The "value" of the vehicle had very little relationship to what anyone was willing to bid and what I ultimately paid.

Auction participants aren't buying or selling at market value. They're just liquidating inventory as fast as possible.

A dealership that is paying storage fees and soaking inventory space with a car that can't be sold is taking it to the auction and unloading it to a dealer that can sell it. If someone bids 10K on a car that's the price it sells for unless someone else bids 10.5K.

In the private market if someone offers a seller 10K for a car that is listed at 15K the buyer is told to kick rocks...unless someone is really hurting for cash. And judging by some of the posts on here people are dumping their TDIs for chicken feed. Whenever some of us caution them to calm down a veritable ****storm ensues. But none of that activity is representative of a car's value.

The article you and I are analyzing even states that almost all of the diesels at auction are from private sellers, and that auction houses are holding onto their inventory. So private sellers are either panicking or forced to sell for some unknown reason and, given that there aren't any bidders, the low bids are winning out thereby driving the average auction pricing down.

If sales volume is low, there doesn't need to be many cars sold at a significant loss to move the average price downward, and the article clearly pointed this out.

If you want to look at a car's value, especially a niche car like a diesel (and a wagon or European car in general, which are multiple intersecting niches that comprise a very tiny segment of the population), you have to look at private sales data.

Even before the scandal VW sales were plummeting
http://247wallst.com/autos/2015/05/02/volkswagen-sales-in-us-continue-to-crash/

The US market has been a boondoggle for VW for as long as I can remember.
Most people I know won't touch an out of warranty VW with a ten foot pole, so looking at sales data vs. book prices is going to give a vastly skewed perspective of what the real world values are in the private market.

Despite all this, dealerships that can sell TDIs are experiencing an uptick in sales:
"Sales of new Volkswagen cars were largely unaffected last month despite the explosion of the diesel emissions scandal, new figures show.

The controversy broke on the 21 September, but the German badge sold 39,263 models last month compared to 37,852 in September 2014, the data shows"

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...-emissions-scandal-official-figures-show.html

Private sales are also *up*
"The aftermath of Volkswagen's emissions scandal has actually created a busier online marketplace for the German automaker's used diesel vehicles in the United States.

Online used car marketplaces such as Kelley Blue Book or AutoTrader.com have seen a significant upswing in activity surrounding the specific vehicles affected by the scandal. (Tweet This)

On Thursday, Volkswagen revealed that its U.S. sales rose 0.6 percent in September, versus an expected decline of 7.3 percent.

"On AutoTrader, we are seeing shopping for diesels up," said Michelle Krebs, a senior analyst at AutoTrader, who noted that the volume of shopping activity between private parties, including purchases and negotiations, is up by almost a fifth over the last week."

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/10/01/volkswagen-scandal-creates-brisk-resale-activity-online.html


And in those private sales, prices have only dropped .06%
"The price drop isn't surprising. The risk of being stuck with a bunch of toxic assets isn't worth the reward to the average car dealer. Drivers, however, see things differently. Volkswagen's diesels don't appear to have been dented nearly as much on secondary markets, where owners sell used cars directly.
At CarGurus, an online car shopping platform, the average price of the affected cars has only dipped by .06 percent since the scandal broke. Carlypso, a California based car-shopping startup, reported a price drop of .3 percent. That’s right—all the hue and cry about a sinister plot to cheat emissions tests sent prices plunging by about $30. “So far, it looks pretty much like a wash,” said Carlypso co-founder Chris Coleman."

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...n-t-stopped-buying-volkswagen-s-dirty-diesels

 

[imurrx]

http://www.just-auto.com/news/vw-eyes-new-car-discounts-for-owners-of-recalled-models_id164306.aspx

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/biz/archives/2015/10/27/2003631005

According to the top site (never heard of them) and the bottom one (quotes Reuters with no link), VW may plan on discounts to buy a newer vehicle to models that need software and hardware to meet compliance. This would server two purposes. Increase sales of new cars and ease the volume of repairs at the dealerships. It focus on the 1.6 L and only in Germany.

 

[ndmike88]

I'm pretty sure the window sticker Smog Rating of 5/10 is an inaccurate representation of the vehicle's emissions...

I'm looking at the window sticker of my 2009 Jetta TDI and no where does it show a Smog Rating. All it shows is the EPA Fuel Economy Estimate (29/40) and the Government Safety Ratings.

Also the sticker shows the phrase "Good clean diesel fun. It's what the people want".

 

[TCBinaflash]

Which numbers are far apart? TDI real world fuel mileage, as logged on Fuelly for example, is pretty much right on the sticker numbers.

Fuelly at 39mpg is still 10%+ higher than 50/50 average of sticker(36mpg). I know a lot of folks say they average 39 mpg but that hasn't been my experience. In Fact, my mpg average on Fuelly is 42 mpg and I've only had 1 tank in 72k miles below 40 mpg.

 

[OwnerSince80]

Germany is in a stink. Hardware changes for 1.6L engine, I believe it's the fuel pump and is mandatory.

"Each German dealership will have to handle an average of 1,100 recalled vehicles, each of which will require at least an hour and a half of work, DPA said. That could result in a long wait for customers."

http://www.businessinsider.com/r-vw...n-cars-with-illicit-software-dpa-says-2015-10

Some serious man-hours for Germans. I doubt the repair can be done in 1 hour.

I've stated my opinion on the EA189 before. They've been hush-hush on saying it conforms to Euro 6/EPA; been over a month. I've heard the US is putting Gen 2 recall for 3rd qtr 2017. According to what I've heard the engine puts out more NOx than earlier, dirtier engines did.

Just supposing I'm right, how long would it take to put in a new EA288 engine? Would the transmission mounts be the same? Is there enough extra room in the compartment for a urea tank? Rather than tinker with very complex emissions on a somewhat rusty 8 year old car, I'd like a solid solution that I could trust, like a new engine and matching emissions system. Not joining any of those lawsuits till I hear from VW. It's wise to wait and see.

 

[tsingtao]

As far as JUDGE and JURY... What judge and jury? Where is this JURY
TRIAL?

Give it a couple of years, you'll see them. Unless of course VW negotiates big settlements.

 

[romad]

Come on guys, let's not make this thread any more useless than it already is. Please try to keep this thread on topic. Alternative fuel vehicles DO NOT belong here (no matter how entertaining they may be).

Have Fun!

Don

Look at it this way, Don: It's a FUN break from all the whining!

 

[SageBrush]

Of course it's not obvious to you...you've been singing the same tune with all your posts: being deliberately obtuse. At least I think, hope, it's deliberate
And in those private sales, prices have only dropped .06%
"The price drop isn't surprising. The risk of being stuck with a bunch of toxic assets isn't worth the reward to the average car dealer. Drivers, however, see things differently. Volkswagen's diesels don't appear to have been dented nearly as much on secondary markets, where owners sell used cars directly.
At CarGurus, an online car shopping platform, the average price of the affected cars has only dipped by .06 percent since the scandal broke. Carlypso, a California based car-shopping startup, reported a price drop of .3 percent. That’s right—all the hue and cry about a sinister plot to cheat emissions tests sent prices plunging by about $30. “So far, it looks pretty much like a wash,” said Carlypso co-founder Chris Coleman."

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...n-t-stopped-buying-volkswagen-s-dirty-diesels

Try refraining from being a jerk.

I don't buy the Coleman reasoning. I can imagine a delay between the markets, as the private owners hold out for a while for a better price, but if that is the case the prices trends will converge sooner rather than later.

 

[bizzle]

What do you mean you don't "buy" the Coleman "reasoning?"

He compared the wholesale prices that were reportedly slumping to private sales that didn't really move downward and called those two values on opposite sides of the spectrum a "wash." That's not reasoning; he didn't make some kind of analysis for why those two things were happening differently.

And I'm not being a jerk, yet here you are again completely missing the point of the data.

Private sellers are not holding out for better prices.

Auction houses are holding out for better prices, private sellers are selling their cars at auctions for lower than value pricing, and private sellers on the private market are selling their cars at no discernible difference than pre-scandal prices *and* they're selling them in higher volume than was expected.

So you have the story in your head of how this is all going down completely backwards from the data. It's also all explained in the articles I linked as well as the articles people keep linking about wholesale pricing, which is why I said those headlines and auction data are giving people a misguided sense of the depreciating value of their cars.

 

[Got Haggis?]

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/...mption-legalizing-vehicle-software-tinkering/

 

[DSL HED]

So according to Automotive News, VW is giving up on the U.S. market overhaul and is going to focus on dealing with their mess first.

They also might stop selling TDIs completely in the U.S.

http://www.autonews.com/article/201...u-s-business-until-scandal-abates-report-says

 

[Torque17]

diesel emissions before controls are bad but all cars have controls and higher controls in case of diesel engines.....so the argument should be based on post-controls emissions (not pre).....bmw diesel is a proven example of clean diesel, no?

 

[JBell]

They also might stop selling TDIs completely in the U.S.
[/url]

This could pan out very well for the '16 Touareg TDI I just bought...or go the other way. Time will tell.

 

[Torque17]

AdBlue Filler Neck on Modded EA189s

Any ideas on how VW is going to install the AdBlue Filler-Neck on the EA189s. From What I see now (2012 Golf TDI), there is no space to install another fill port:

1. are they going to cram it in somehow?

2. will they replace the whole body panel to match with EA288s ('15 golfs) that has a broader filler flap and decently spaced 2 fill ports?

SERVICE ADVISE While Waiting for VW to Release Their Plan for EA189s:

1. I used to change engine oil about 5k-7.5k. I am at 8k now. I am pushing to 10k before the next change. By when is VW going to make their offerings?

2. I am at 55k miles and never had the brake fluid flush done. How long can I go before a flush. I think VW has a 30k recommendation for a change. Visually, the fluid looks clean.

 

[JBell]

Any ideas on how VW is going to install the AdBlue Filler-Neck on the EA189s. From What I see now (2012 Golf TDI), there is no space to install another fill port:

1. are they going to cram it in somehow?

2. will they replace the whole body panel to match with EA288s ('15 golfs) that has a broader filler flap and decently spaced 2 fill ports?

SERVICE ADVISE While Waiting for VW to Release Their Plan for EA189s:

1. I used to change engine oil about 5k-7.5k. I am at 8k now. I am pushing to 10k before the next change. By when is VW going to make their offerings?

2. I am at 55k miles and never had the brake fluid flush done. How long can I go before a flush. I think VW has a 30k recommendation for a change. Visually, the fluid looks clean.

Some AdBlue fill ports are in the trunk such as with my Touareg.

Why are you changing your oil before 10k miles? There is no need to.

I believe brake fluid should be done at 3 years, then every 2 years after that. I can't recall exactly what the maintenance schedule says at this time.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

Any ideas on how VW is going to install the AdBlue Filler-Neck on the EA189s. From What I see now (2012 Golf TDI), there is no space to install another fill port:

1. are they going to cram it in somehow?

2. will they replace the whole body panel to match with EA288s ('15 golfs) that has a broader filler flap and decently spaced 2 fill ports?

SERVICE ADVISE While Waiting for VW to Release Their Plan for EA189s:

1. I used to change engine oil about 5k-7.5k. I am at 8k now. I am pushing to 10k before the next change. By when is VW going to make their offerings?

2. I am at 55k miles and never had the brake fluid flush done. How long can I go before a flush. I think VW has a 30k recommendation for a change. Visually, the fluid looks clean.

In the fuel filler like the Beetle or in the trunk like the Passat.

 

[truman]

Maybe they will just add a pilot tube?

 

[tsingtao]

2. I am at 55k miles and never had the brake fluid flush done. How long can I go before a flush. I think VW has a 30k recommendation for a change. Visually, the fluid looks clean.

I think it is every three years without regard to mileage. I have had mine (a 2009) done once, and it is due again in about six months.

 

[meerschm]

I think it is every three years without regard to mileage. I have had mine (a 2009) done once, and it is due again in about six months.

RTFM

every two years (after the first at three years)

pretty clear we have diverged from any news to discussing brake fluid change interval.

 

[tsingtao]

RTFM

every two years (after the first at three years)

pretty clear we have diverged from any news to discussing brake fluid change interval.

I've got a pdf (from this site) that says every three years for 2009s. (For some odd reason Beetles are every 2 years.)

For 2012, it is what you said. When I first got mine the published schedule said 3 then every 2 but then they changed it.

http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/516/2009_All.pdf

http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/516/2012_Jetta.pdf

 

[gmcjetpilot]

If you have a proven track record of what you achieved in mpg using any
SW aka Fuel buddy or any other, and then get X% less after a so called fix
or update you have proof! Any Jury at this point right now will be on your
side (the consumer) and not VW! (take what side about what? you know
these things often do NOT go to trial, they are settled and/or a judge will
rule, no jury. This is not criminal or personal injury; this is consumer law.)

I seriously have to wonder about why and how many of you here on this
forum are siding with VW and try to put down any comments of people
trying to find help and support of their loss? Are you VW employees,
contractors or in some other way shape or form paid for their defense?

If you have a proven track record of what you achieved in mpg using any
SW aka Fuel buddy or any other, and then get X% less after a so called fix
or update you have proof!

Any Jury at this point right now will be on your side (the consumer) and
not VW!

No one is taking sides, just trying to throw a reality bucket of water
of the flames of hysteria.

Look you can prove loss of MPG after the recall fix, assuming it does
lower your MPG. That has not happened yet. The recall has not happened.

Let's say we accomplish recall and MPG goes down, say 6% on the older
TDI's and less on the newer urea TDI's. 6% represents (depending how
much you drive and cost of fuel) about $300 to $700 over 10 years.... Sue
away. That is all your loss on the basis of MPG. A lady in San Fran sued
over lower Prius mileage, got about $900. The Hyundai folks got a check
for lower MPG... about $600.

Sue? Get a lawyer and take them to civil/small claims. It will cost you
$1500 for a lawyer and fees. You will lose money, unless you do it all
yourself; in that case about $100 to file and a lot of time. It will cost you
nothing for a class action, but you will get about 10%, or about $30 to $70.
My point is 6% is not that much. Sucks? Yes. However read on.

If you live in the 47 states with out emission testing and maybe all of
Canada, not sure, you may never lose MPG. Just don't do the recall mod.
Statistics for other recalls is ~40% of the cars never accomplish
recall. In this case since it's a pollution vs. loss of some efficiency,
not a safety issue, I guess +70% of these cars don't go in for the
recall if it cost MPG. Except for 13 states I doubt people will be
forced to accomplish the recall. We can hope for the best and
a recall does not affect the MPG or performance much. That is
possible, since Benz, BMW seem to do it (albeit with both NOx
trap and urea).

 

[gmcjetpilot]

I'm looking at the window sticker of my 2009 Jetta TDI and no where does it show a Smog Rating.
All it shows is the EPA Fuel Economy Estimate (29/40) and the Government Safety Ratings.

Also the sticker shows the phrase "Good clean diesel fun. It's what the people want".

TDI Smog rating 5/10 - nitrogen oxide (NOx), carbon monoxide, particulate matter.....
TDI Global Warming 8/10 - "green house gases" - CO2 output of TDI is acceptable I believe.

Contributors to "green house gases" which causes rising temps in order:
Carbon Dioxide 54.7% (accounts fo 26% of global warming)
Methane 30% (cow flatchulence, 20x more damaging than CO2)
Other gases 9.8% (naturally occurring, industrial, ozone)
Nitrous Oxide NOx 4.95% <<<<<< how much from TDI's?
Fluorinated gases 0.6% (man made industrial, e.g., freon)

Last 20 yrs CO2 has grown the most and is most damaging.
NOx has not grown that much in the last 20 years and smaller overall.

 

[Prop Man]

As far as damages go I agree that at this moment there is little incentive to sue. However, if the state of CA decides to take all of these cars OFF THE ROAD because they are not satisfied with the "fix," then VW will be in a world of hurt--huge payouts to thousands of owners. And don't think this isn't a real possibility-we have NO IDEA if VW can even come up with a fix for the Gen 1 cars--its all conjecture at this point.

So I'm driving the hell out of my 2010 A3 TDI (137,000 miles and rolling) and waiting out the storm. We will all know in a matter of weeks.

And yes I am really steamed about all of this BS. I bought the TDI as an "anti-prius"-- trying to be "green" and economical without driving a really clumsy, ugly car. I was lied to -- does that mean VW/Audi owes me damages? I dunno . . .

 

[bring]

No one is taking sides, just trying to throw a reality bucket of water
of the flames of hysteria.

Look you can prove loss of MPG after the recall fix, assuming it does
lower your MPG. That has not happened yet. The recall has not happened.

Let's say we accomplish recall and MPG goes down, say 6% on the older
TDI's and less on the newer urea TDI's. 6% represents (depending how
much you drive and cost of fuel) about $300 to $700 over 10 years.... Sue
away. That is all your loss on the basis of MPG. A lady in San Fran sued
over lower Prius mileage, got about $900. The Hyundai folks got a check
for lower MPG... about $600.

Sue? Get a lawyer and take them to civil/small claims. It will cost you
$1500 for a lawyer and fees. You will lose money, unless you do it all
yourself; in that case about $100 to file and a lot of time. It will cost you
nothing for a class action, but you will get about 10%, or about $30 to $70.
My point is 6% is not that much. Sucks? Yes. However read on.

If you live in the 47 states with out emission testing and maybe all of
Canada, not sure, you may never lose MPG. Just don't do the recall mod.
Statistics for other recalls is ~40% of the cars never accomplish
recall. In this case since it's a pollution vs. loss of some efficiency,
not a safety issue, I guess +70% of these cars don't go in for the
recall if it cost MPG. Except for 13 states I doubt people will be
forced to accomplish the recall. We can hope for the best and
a recall does not affect the MPG or performance much. That is
possible, since Benz, BMW seem to do it (albeit with both NOx
trap and urea).

You accuse others of ranting?

 

[JDenyer232]

I think it's important to remember that carb states other than California may not demand that the cars be fixed. Just because a State signs on to the carb standard does not mean that those states will tie the recall to registrations.

 

[bobgolf2004]

VW diesel info site

Put my VIN into VW's check your VIN application and it says my 2015 Passat TDI is not affected. Anyone else check their car?

Since I bought the car in May 2015, I assume it had the earlier emissions software update.

Vehicle is not affected


Based on our records, your vehicle is not affected by the 2.0L TDI emissions issue.

 

[Jack-DE]

Put my VIN into VW's check your VIN application and it says my 2015 Passat TDI is not affected. Anyone else check their car?

Since I bought the car in May 2015, I assume it had the earlier emissions software update.

Vehicle is not affected


Based on our records, your vehicle is not affected by the 2.0L TDI emissions issue.

Are you sure you are checking the correct link? Try this one:
http://www.vw.com/owners/recalls/

 

[tsingtao]

Just went to my mailbox. Another solicitation from an attorney to sue individually. They are offering to take the case on a contingency basis.

We want you to get your slice of the pie [emphasis theirs]. Your compensation is likely to be higher by pursuing an individual claim now rather than waiting for many years to recover in the "class action" cases.

For now I am leaving it in my pile of junk mail that I use to scoop cat vomit up off of the floor. I am going to see what VW's plan of action is before I sign on to any lawsuit.