NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

NYC-TDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 20, 2011
Location
NYC
TDI
TDI Free and Loving It
You are in a bad spot, I think it unlikely VW will do more. Unfortunately this is "normal" for VW's standard of customer care. (And is why I no longer own, and will never again own, a VW.) How bad do you need the car? Can you afford to just let it sit while fighting VW? If so I would try local media as a first step. It's cheaper than a lawyer. Is there a TV station with a consumer reporter in your area? Contact them, I bet with all the emissions trouble going on they would love to get a "scoop" on another problem area with VW TDI's. Worth a shot. Good luck.
 
Last edited:

ATR

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jun 18, 2005
Location
Baltimore
TDI
2011 Golf TDI 6MT
Oh yes! NYC-TDI has the right idea :cool:

Also try posting this failure on VWOA's Facebook page... This extended warranty really should
cover all mkvi 2.0 TDIs since they all use the same pump (even if newer cars use newer revisions of the pump the design is really pretty much unchanged). Though the newer cars do seem to suffer less then the older ones.
 
Last edited:

ATR

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jun 18, 2005
Location
Baltimore
TDI
2011 Golf TDI 6MT
And don't forget to point them in the direction of this thread with 6693 posts!
 

South Coast Guy

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2010
Location
Mattapoisett, MA
TDI
2009 Jetta TDI wagon
You are in a bad spot, I think it unlikely VW will do more. Unfortunately this is "normal" for VW's standard of customer care. (And is why I no longer own, and will never again own, a VW.) How bad do you need the car? Can you afford to just let it sit while fighting VW? If so I would try local media as a first step. It's cheaper than a lawyer. Is there a TV station with a consumer reporter in your area? Contact them, I bet with all the emissions trouble going on they would love to get a "scoop" on another problem area with VW TDI's. Worth a shot. Good luck.
I don't want to defend VW's position, but I don't believe most manufacturers cover failures outside of warranty. I would advise this owner to make the repairs and make one last appeal to VW in writing with a copy of the receipt. Even if nothing is done now, it is possible that he could be reimbursed some time in the future if the HPFP failure debacle happens for the 2013 models. This happened to me with Honda.
 

NYC-TDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 20, 2011
Location
NYC
TDI
TDI Free and Loving It
I don't believe most manufacturers cover failures outside of warranty.
No they don't but this is a unique issue. For one there is already a previously established past practice of covering this issue outside of warranty. Secondly there is the issue that there are essentially 2 different warranties for the same part. If his car was a year older all would have been covered. Yet the same exact part is not covered in his 2013 even when that part has been shown to be failure prone. I would love to see a VW representative on camera trying to address those issues (as well as the crappy HPFP design in general.)
 

rewwky

Active member
Joined
Apr 1, 2014
Location
Kentucky
TDI
2013 Golf TDI w/Tech Package
NYC-TDI,
Spot on and I pointed that fact out in the memo I sent to Michael Horn. I didn't know it was the same fuel pump as the 2010-2012's. I also suspect that other 2013 owners may have been given a better deal from VWOA than their latest offer to me, but I've yet to see a 2013 owner come online in the forum (or a PM in private) stating this.

I know that if I go down the legal action and/or media option road that all bets are off with VWOA covering anything up front. That's why I would like to have a backup plan for a trusted TDI mechanic to make the repair (within 100 miles of where I live).

To be honest, VWOAs quoted labor cost of $980 doesn't sound awful knowing what dealer shop labor rates run and how involved this repair is....again though, its the principle of this whole fiasco of getting jerked around btwn the dealer and VWOA and older models covered for same known problem with same fuel pump...yeah, the HPFP failure is only a 1-2% failure rate across the fleet, but for those of us in that group, its a big deal.
 
Last edited:

rewwky

Active member
Joined
Apr 1, 2014
Location
Kentucky
TDI
2013 Golf TDI w/Tech Package
I just learned that VWOA CEO Michael Horn will be testifying before Congress on 8 Oct on dieselgate. PA Rep Tim Murphy will be in that hearing...Even though he is not my Rep, I think I will drop him an email on the HPFP issue by laying out some simple facts...I would love to see the board ask Michael Horn if he is aware of the HPFP issue that have plagued the TDI models to include post-2012 TDI models that possess the same HPFP (by part number) and that VWOA has not been forthcoming on covering 100% of the repair cost on post-2012 TDI models that are outside of the standard mfr warranty, but under the 120K extended warranty that has been applied to 2010-2012 TDI models with HPFP failures.

I believe it's a fair question that deserves a fair response. Thoughts?

Rob
 
Last edited:

bubbagumpshrimp

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2013
Location
Virginia
TDI
'13 Jetta TDI
I just learned that VWOA CEO Michael Horn will be testifying before Congress on 8 Oct on dieselgate. PA Rep Tim Murphy will be in that hearing...Even though he is not my Rep, I think I will drop him an email on the HPFP issue by laying out some simple facts...I would love to see the board ask Michael Horn if he is aware of the HPFP issue that have plagued the TDI models to include post-2012 TDI models that possess the same HPFP (by part number) and that VWOA has not been forthcoming on covering 100% of the repair cost on post-2012 TDI models that are outside of the standard mfr warranty, but under the 120K extended warranty that has been applied to 2010-2012 TDI models with HPFP failures.

I believe it's a fair question that deserves a fair response. Thoughts?

Rob
Go for it.
 

ATR

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jun 18, 2005
Location
Baltimore
TDI
2011 Golf TDI 6MT
I just learned that VWOA CEO Michael Horn will be testifying before Congress on 8 Oct on dieselgate. PA Rep Tim Murphy will be in that hearing...Even though he is not my Rep, I think I will drop him an email on the HPFP issue by laying out some simple facts...I would love to see the board ask Michael Horn if he is aware of the HPFP issue that have plagued the TDI models to include post-2012 TDI models that possess the same HPFP (by part number) and that VWOA has not been forthcoming on covering 100% of the repair cost on post-2012 TDI models that are outside of the standard mfr warranty, but under the 120K extended warranty that has been applied to 2010-2012 TDI models with HPFP failures.

I believe it's a fair question that deserves a fair response. Thoughts?

Rob
Go for it.
Absolutely! Go for it!!
 

Smokin_Joe

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2011
Location
Surrey BC
TDI
2011 Golf TDI Highline returned for refund
No they don't but this is a unique issue. For one there is already a previously established past practice of covering this issue outside of warranty. Secondly there is the issue that there are essentially 2 different warranties for the same part. If his car was a year older all would have been covered. Yet the same exact part is not covered in his 2013 even when that part has been shown to be failure prone. I would love to see a VW representative on camera trying to address those issues (as well as the crappy HPFP design in general.)
I agree with NYC-TDI
But it's not, really. Practically all models with HPFPs (including gassers) have had failure issues.
AND these failures have been repaired out of warranty...
after the NHTSA finished it's investigation VW offered an extended warranty to a select few of these cars on the road.
AND this extended warranty was only issued to earlier models ...
Making this a UNIQUE issue worth addressing...
AND your statement that Practically all models with HPFP's.....is WAY out of reality because only 2-3% of total sales have actually had problems.
The NHTSA was nice to point that glowing fact out to us.
I fail to see you point in arguing against going after VW for to repair all of these HPFP failures, within warranty or not.
They should be held accountable for failing to provide a proper solution to these catastrophic failures
 

rewwky

Active member
Joined
Apr 1, 2014
Location
Kentucky
TDI
2013 Golf TDI w/Tech Package
Note regarding the HPFP failures sent to my local Ky rep who I asked to forward to Rep Tim Murphy Of Pennsylvania who is on the congressional subcommittee that will question Michael Horn on 8 Oct.

Laid it all out and referenced a couple of these forum topic links regarding HPFP failures.

I'll keep all of you posted on what, if anything, I hear back on.
 

Random_Vibration

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 12, 2014
Location
Florida
TDI
2015 Golf SEL TDI (6MT, LP, Driver Assist)
Team TDIers,
My 2013 Golf TDI with almost 80K on it suffered a catastrophic HPFP failure back in early August. My failure is noted on http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=299854 (post 847)

Unlike the 2010-2012 TDI models, the HPFP factory warranty was not extended on the 2013s and 2014s.

It has been nothing short of a frustrating battle with VWOA on getting them to cover this repair. The dealer has also not provided a written diagnosis other than the car throwing a code signifying an HPFP failure and inspected the fuel filter and found metal shavings. An Aug 25th letter from VWOA stated that they would not cover anything. I was letting this "ride" for a bit and when the emissions scandal came out, I thought "now that is karma". I came across VWOA's CEO/President Michael Horn's email address and sent him a letter last week explaining all the facts and circumstances. Within 24 hours I had an Exec Specialist (one level above the regional case managers) calling me and the latest deal is that they will cover 25% parts and nothing on labor. VWOA further offered to give me wholesale cost for parts (~$4100) and labor (~$900). So knocking off 25% off parts, total out the door bill will be around $3950. The latest though is that I went to price the parts on volkswagenpartsdepartment.com and I can get all the needed OEM parts for ~$2700, so my plan is to engage VWOA with the difference in parts pricing.



I really don't think that I should accept this deal, but to be honest, I have a lot of things to factor in to include a possible course of action of pursuing legal action, but this would be a David vs Goliath battle. I'm an amateur mechanic at best so I'm really in a bad spot and so frustrated being caught between the VW dealer and VWOA.

If I cannot get VWOA to budge on their latest deal, I believe the better option would be to find a trusted TDI mechanic who has done a complete HPFP repair, I see that Dan Falzone attempted to do this himself (separate thread), but is experiencing issues getting his TDI to run correctly. I sure do wish him the best as his DIY guide is phenomenal.

I did submit my HPFP failure to the NTHSB, but to date have been unable to find out how may 2013-2014 TDIs have experienced the dreaded HPFP failure though I know I'm not the only one. I'd love to hear from someone who has a 2013-2014 TDI that suffered a HPFP failure outside of the standard mfr warranty period and got VWOA to cover the cost of the entire repair (or something better than their latest offer to me)

Part of this post is venting on the crappy customer experience with VWOA/VW dealer and part of this is seeking what you TDI veterans think about this.

Thanks much in advance!

Rob
Notify VW than you will be contacting you state's attorney general and filing a complaint. The faulty part is similar on covered and non covered cars and the failure is the same. Don't give in yet because that is exactly what they hope you will do.

It is a unique problem because dealers are quoting $4,000 to $7,000 to replace a fuel pump.
 

kjclow

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
If the 13 and up pumps are "so much better", then we should all have the fix of replacing the existing pumps with brand new ones. Although I don't remember the timeframe or model year used, I do remember that several people on here had replaced pumps fail. I am surprised that all 09-14 non Passat diesels were not included in the extended warranty.
 

ATR

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jun 18, 2005
Location
Baltimore
TDI
2011 Golf TDI 6MT
If the 13 and up pumps are "so much better", then we should all have the fix of replacing the existing pumps with brand new ones. Although I don't remember the timeframe or model year used, I do remember that several people on here had replaced pumps fail. I am surprised that all 09-14 non Passat diesels were not included in the extended warranty.
I believe the passats rarely if ever had this happen to them. Their common rails operate at a lower pressure then the ones used in the 09-14 golf, jetta & JSW.
 

Smokin_Joe

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2011
Location
Surrey BC
TDI
2011 Golf TDI Highline returned for refund
Notify VW than you will be contacting you state's attorney general and filing a complaint. ...
I don't know if that is a good idea.
In my experiences
I have found that as soon as you mention media or attorney, VW customer care uses that as a chance to cut off relations ie hang up
Your experience could be different, but personally I have found this to be true
 

kjclow

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
If the 13 and up pumps are "so much better", then we should all have the fix of replacing the existing pumps with brand new ones. Although I don't remember the timeframe or model year used, I do remember that several people on here had replaced pumps fail. I am surprised that all 09-14 non Passat diesels were not included in the extended warranty.
I believe the passats rarely if ever had this happen to them. Their common rails operate at a lower pressure then the ones used in the 09-14 golf, jetta & JSW.
That's why I said "non Passat"
 

tsingtao

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2004
Location
Phoenix, AZ
TDI
2016 Mazda 3 Hatchback 2009 Jetta TDI--Bought back 12/21/16
You are in a bad spot, I think it unlikely VW will do more. Unfortunately this is "normal" for VW's standard of customer care. (And is why I no longer own, and will never again own, a VW.) How bad do you need the car? Can you afford to just let it sit while fighting VW? If so I would try local media as a first step. It's cheaper than a lawyer. Is there a TV station with a consumer reporter in your area? Contact them, I bet with all the emissions trouble going on they would love to get a "scoop" on another problem area with VW TDI's. Worth a shot. Good luck.
This guy had luck with the media here in Phoenix. (For those who don't know, Anthem is just north of Phoenix along I-17, so it probably was a Phoenix dealer.)

http://www.kpho.com/story/30005625/volkswagen-diesel-owners-beware-of-dirty-fuel
 

MRO1791

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 25, 2015
Location
Western Washington
TDI
2015 Cruze TD (x2), 2009 Dodge Cummins
This guy had luck with the media here in Phoenix. (For those who don't know, Anthem is just north of Phoenix along I-17, so it probably was a Phoenix dealer.)

http://www.kpho.com/story/30005625/volkswagen-diesel-owners-beware-of-dirty-fuel
Interesting story, but "dirty" is not the issue, lubricity is. The Bosch limit was 460uM, the US standard is 575uM, higher is worse. VW put this pump in a market where the fuel was not going to be compatible.. they cheated emissions to avoid $335 per car to put compliant SCR/DEF systems on the cars, and cheated the SCR cars to make maintenance and DEF line up to 10K mile service intervals.

The cheaper, and failure prone HPFP saves more like $600 per car, over the prior proven designs, like CP3, or CP1 used on the Cruze..

There is no doubt in my mind the same bean counter pressure that pressured the emissions cheat was also in play to use a cheaper pump, that was not even designed to operate on US specification ULSD.

I know all OEMs factor in price points and risk, but I have to say at this point VW leaves the others in the dust when going the extra mile to cut corners and shaft the customer with massive repair bills.
 

bluey

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 18, 2008
Location
Australia
TDI
Skoda Yeti 2.0L 103kW CR TDI (CFHC) [MY09 Polo TDI 1.9 74kW (AXR) retired with hail damage]
Interesting story, but "dirty" is not the issue, lubricity is. The Bosch limit was 460uM, the US standard is 575uM, higher is worse. VW put this pump in a market where the fuel was not going to be compatible.. they cheated emissions to avoid $335 per car to put compliant SCR/DEF systems on the cars, and cheated the SCR cars to make maintenance and DEF line up to 10K mile service intervals.
[...]
Yes. The guts of the problem is something between beancounters and corporate culture.

The company doesn't from a cost perspective want to have to develop too many different versions for different markets.

OTOH, they do exactly that already at least for less "critical" things - appearance, trims, etc.

For mechanical items, the costs run to design/build/test/document/train/etc. So then engineering says it will cost this much more just for that market, and marketing says we can't sell sell enough for that much more in this market, and the beancounters say can't we just do more with less......

OTOH, presumably there is no desire from Detroit automakers to try to improve the specification of US fuels (octane, cetane, lubricity), because that would give more cost advantages to imports over locally made cars.
 

tsingtao

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2004
Location
Phoenix, AZ
TDI
2016 Mazda 3 Hatchback 2009 Jetta TDI--Bought back 12/21/16
Interesting story, but "dirty" is not the issue, lubricity is.
I was thinking that if VW could really prove it was "dirty" they would have stood their ground and told him to go after the station. Circle K is one of the largest retailers of fuel in this area so I am sure they have plenty of insurance for just such things.

VW was just stonewalling and giving their usual customer service until the media stepped in.
 

camanobass

New member
Joined
Apr 26, 2013
Location
Washington State
TDI
2003 Jetta Wagon
At 40K on my 2013 Sportwagon (build date Sept 2012) I changed my own fuel filter and found it was full of metal. I phoned the dealer and told them about all the metal and they said bring it in but leave the dirty filter in but I had already cleaned and replaced it. So I drove 25 miles to the dealer on a new clean filter. I watched as the dealers mechanic opened the filter and it was full of metal again in just 25 miles. The mechanic then told me "this is normal, we see it all the time" he then opened up the metering valve port and showed me that it was clean and said "our service bulletin says that as long as this is clear we won't replace the hpfp". The car now has 59,300 miles so this time I had the dealer change the filter and I watched as it was removed but there was maybe only a couple specs and might not have even been metal.

The dealer told me that even with the metal at 40k they can't replace the hpfp under warranty and this model '13 is not eligible for the extended hpfp warranty.

Now with VW taking their time to decide what to do about the emissions scandal recall I'm sitting on a possible catastrophic failure which won't be covered. I would preemptively replace the hpfp but I don't want to put money into a car that might be bought back (probably for another shafting) in a few months.

I've been the most loyal VW customer, owning 14 VW's starting in 1961 including 4 diesels. VW and I are Done!
 

Jimmy Coconuts

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 27, 2015
Location
Henderson NV
TDI
2009 JSW, 2010 Jetta, 2011 Q7 Prestige, 2012 A3 Premium, 2013 A3 Premium Plus, 2014 Beetle, 2015 Jetta
Yeah that stinks. I would maybe try to pick up an extended warranty just in case.
 

ATR

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jun 18, 2005
Location
Baltimore
TDI
2011 Golf TDI 6MT
At 40K on my 2013 Sportwagon (build date Sept 2012) I changed my own fuel filter and found it was full of metal. I phoned the dealer and told them about all the metal and they said bring it in but leave the dirty filter in but I had already cleaned and replaced it. So I drove 25 miles to the dealer on a new clean filter. I watched as the dealers mechanic opened the filter and it was full of metal again in just 25 miles. The mechanic then told me "this is normal, we see it all the time" he then opened up the metering valve port and showed me that it was clean and said "our service bulletin says that as long as this is clear we won't replace the hpfp". The car now has 59,300 miles so this time I had the dealer change the filter and I watched as it was removed but there was maybe only a couple specs and might not have even been metal.

The dealer told me that even with the metal at 40k they can't replace the hpfp under warranty and this model '13 is not eligible for the extended hpfp warranty.

Now with VW taking their time to decide what to do about the emissions scandal recall I'm sitting on a possible catastrophic failure which won't be covered. I would preemptively replace the hpfp but I don't want to put money into a car that might be bought back (probably for another shafting) in a few months.

I've been the most loyal VW customer, owning 14 VW's starting in 1961 including 4 diesels. VW and I are Done!
2micron has a kit to address this very issue:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=375803
 

> Luke <

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2011
Location
West Los Angeles
TDI
Golf 2011 TDi DSG
As of Monday 8:am PST (California) Notice From

Fm: https://www.vwdieselinfo.com/goodwill_package/

VW is providing affected 2.0L TDI® owners with a $500 VW Prepaid Visa Loyalty Card, a $500 VW Dealership Card, and
no-charge 24-hour Roadside Assistance for three years*.

Go to the above site for clarification.

I apologize if I have mis-posted this
 
Last edited:

dan30thz28

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2006
Location
Cream Ridge, NJ
TDI
2002 Jetta GLS TDI 5-speed Manual 2013 VW Sportwagen TDI 6-Speed Manual
Got my wife's car registered. It's easy to spend $1000 dollars these days, but why not take it if it's free? I did!
 
Top