The gasoline engine is NOT dead.

tdi90hp

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2002
Location
Canuckland
TDI
2011 Golf TDI 6 speed(gone but NEVER forgotten)
I had to trade my car. Basically mileage was getting so high that I would get poor trade value. I want the new Golf 7 but going to wait till its well sorted. I will order an early 2016 in summer 2015. So what to buy? Well stopped in to the Mazda store and bought a base 6 speed Mazda 3....Cost me nearly nothing (3K)to trade up 3 years and got a full warranty because I traded just before the car tails in value. Anyways the interesting part is the mileage. Same trip as I often do.....leave my house and drive to Montreal. Start FULL to the brim and fill up at same station I filled my Mark 6 at. I used to use with a fully broken in Golf 6.... 24-25 liters.... every time cruising 110km/hr (about 70 MPH).....just did the same trip with my Mazda 3 at same speed with 2000 kms on odometer (1200 miles)....not broken in in the dead of winter and I used 28.35 liters.....I was absolutely amazed. Same conditions, same tire pressures on both cars ...one broken in...one not..... I don't need to say that diesel is a solid 8-13% more costly at the same pump. Result?
I hate to say this but my enthusiasm for diesel "fuel economy" on the highway took a serious step back.....Cost for this 500km trip by this driver was a WASH.....Still cant believe it.....I love diesels for so many other reasons but the Gas engine isn't DEAD....
 

DieselRacer

banned
Joined
Oct 4, 2013
Location
AZ-NV
TDI
BMW Advanced Diesel...2011 BMW 335d
I had to trade my car. Basically mileage was getting so high that I would get poor trade value. I want the new Golf 7 but going to wait till its well sorted. I will order an early 2016 in summer 2015. So what to buy? Well stopped in to the Mazda store and bought a base 6 speed Mazda 3....Cost me nearly nothing (3K)to trade up 3 years and got a full warranty because I traded just before the car tails in value. Anyways the interesting part is the mileage. Same trip as I often do.....leave my house and drive to Montreal. Start FULL to the brim and fill up at same station I filled my Mark 6 at. I used to use with a fully broken in Golf 6.... 24-25 liters.... every time cruising 110km/hr (about 70 MPH).....just did the same trip with my Mazda 3 at same speed with 2000 kms on odometer (1200 miles)....not broken in in the dead of winter and I used 28.35 liters.....I was absolutely amazed. Same conditions, same tire pressures on both cars ...one broken in...one not..... I don't need to say that diesel is a solid 8-13% more costly at the same pump. Result?
I hate to say this but my enthusiasm for diesel "fuel economy" on the highway took a serious step back.....Cost for this 500km trip by this driver was a WASH.....Still cant believe it.....I love diesels for so many other reasons but the Gas engine isn't DEAD....

How does the new car go up hills with all that tq...:eek:
 

tdi90hp

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2002
Location
Canuckland
TDI
2011 Golf TDI 6 speed(gone but NEVER forgotten)
its a dog. So I downshift. I agree that I miss my Golf for certain reasons (for other reasons no though....this 3er is THE best handling FWD car I have ever driven)....but no torque....Quiet though.....real quiet in town.....Bit more road noise on highway then Golf....
 

tdi90hp

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2002
Location
Canuckland
TDI
2011 Golf TDI 6 speed(gone but NEVER forgotten)
I have to admit, torque is nice and I love it when I need it, but it's not the whole story. Gasoline cars are getting much better and FE is respectable, especially with the D2 to RUG spread.
That was my point.....we are paying for driveability now and less for mileage ...although in town diesels still win but the differences are not huge anymore.....pretty small really....anxious to see how the new 1.8T turns out with good mileage comparisons....
 

30_Yr_Dsl_Veteran

banned Ric Woodruff alias account and troll
Joined
Dec 20, 2013
Location
Lake Placid, FL
TDI
2009 Jetta
I had to trade my car. Basically mileage was getting so high that I would get poor trade value.
That is one of the worst reasons (aka excuses) to ever trade in a car! :eek:

A much better scenario, as far as your average cost per year car cost, is to buy a brand new car, take reasonably care of it, and get a new one after twenty (20) years.

An even better scenario, is get a 4 year old car (for roughly 1/2 the cost of new) keep it 16 years, and then get another.

The very worst case scenario, is buy a brand new car, and trade it in after 4 years. You are literally throwing money out the window by wheel barrow fulls! Depreciation in value is massive in the 1st 3 or 4 years in terms of absolute dollars.

 

tdi90hp

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2002
Location
Canuckland
TDI
2011 Golf TDI 6 speed(gone but NEVER forgotten)
its actually pretty remarkable....still lean towards my VWs but its pretty slick. and at 18,500 including AC, BlueT, 4 Door, PW,PL, 6 Speed, 16 Inch wheels and 4 wheel disc and FULL indie suspension and 155HP it's a great compromise between a cheapie car like an Accent and a German Panzer wagon like a Golf TDI. New Golf in a 1.8T was interesting but fuel economy, NO indie suspension and 2K more money I figured this was the cheapest way to go while I patiently wait for the mark 7 to get sorted out and onto the market and 1 yr. under it's belt of sales.
 

tdi90hp

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2002
Location
Canuckland
TDI
2011 Golf TDI 6 speed(gone but NEVER forgotten)
mine is a hatch....it was a thousand bucks more than the sedan but it has the nice twin exhaust pipes and the hatch feel and look and to me is just more Euro looking if I can use a overused expression. Dealer insists it will command at least 80% of that thousand bucks back in resale or trade...we will see.....
 

2.2TDI

Veteran Member
Joined
May 1, 2011
Location
TDI
⠀⠀
Congrats on the mazda, my only issue with them is the rust, I have no idea how the new ones are, but it's still too early to tell, my protege5 was falling apart... Any mazda up until 07/08 i've seen rusting like hell, especially the mazda3...hopefully they fixed it by now
 

Sinner

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2002
Location
Greenville, NC
TDI
none
That was my point.....we are paying for driveability now and less for mileage ...although in town diesels still win but the differences are not huge anymore.....pretty small really....anxious to see how the new 1.8T turns out with good mileage comparisons....
RUG 1.8T with auto transmission are showing 35mpg.
DD DSG are doing 40mpg.
With NC fuel prices, cost per mile is pretty much the same ($3,550 both, at 36K/year, according to http://www.fueleconomy.gov/
The 1.8T, with all the torque available at low revs, presents itself as a good economy contender for the TDI.
Now, what I don't know is: what are maintenance costs for both engines?
 

BlankThis

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2012
Location
Montreal, QC
TDI
2002 Golf GLS TDI
Lets see how she drives in 300k kms. Not that it matters to you if you plan on jumping to the Golf 7 in 2015.

I don't think these high compression gassers that are pushing 40MPG are going to have the same long term durability as the TDIs.
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
Keep in mind that "high compression" doesn't correlate with "low durability" because the diesel engine has a lot more ...

Also, let's compare fancy finicky features that can go wrong.

Mazda Skyactiv:
- Gasoline direct injection system
- Variable valve timing (very rarely an issue)
- 3 way catalyst (same as every other gasoline engine)
- Oxygen sensor (same as every other gasoline engine)

Modern common-rail diesel engine
- Diesel direct injection system (~ 10 x higher pressure than gasoline direct injection)
- Turbocharger (Skyactiv doesn't have)
- High pressure EGR system (Skyactiv doesn't have)
- Intercooler (Skyactiv doesn't have)
- Low pressure EGR system and that infernal back-pressure flap (Skyactiv doesn't have)
- Oxidizing catalyst (corresponds to 3-way catalyst on gasoline engine - seldom an issue)
- Oxygen sensor (corresponds)
- Particulate filter (Skyactiv doesn't have - and this gizmo and its regeneration system are issues!)
- AdBlue system, if present (the days of diesel engines that do NOT have this are numbered - and it has been troublesome in cold weather)

Long term, for durability, if we are discussing modern emissions-compliant engines I think I'd say that the diesel engine is far more likely to have some expensive component/system fail later in the car's life that ends up being more expensive to repair than the car is worth.

Disclaimer, I've also given up on diesels for the time being; back to non-turbo, port-injected gas engine without thousands of $$ worth of emission control components ...
 

yatzee

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 4, 2004
Location
Montreal, Qc
TDI
see sig
i'm seriously considering either a mazda 3 or a 1.8tsi. They'll lose out on the resale, but will cost less to buy and run in the meantime
 

S2000_guy

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 4, 2013
Location
ohio
TDI
2014 Sportwagen TDI
And here in Central Ohio where diesel is 20% more than RUG, the TDI makes no sense at all vs. the Skyactiv.
 

yatzee

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 4, 2004
Location
Montreal, Qc
TDI
see sig
And here in Central Ohio where diesel is 20% more than RUG, the TDI makes no sense at all vs. the Skyactiv.
how is the resale? I had worked out that I could recoup the difference between the tdi and the 1.8tsi if i resold it in 5 years. With that in mind, it would come to personal driving preference.
 

2.2TDI

Veteran Member
Joined
May 1, 2011
Location
TDI
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I do agree the new skyactiv-G engines can have some great fuel economy, but what about those skyactiv-D engines? Those are supposed to be even better... It's such a shame they still haven't brought that engine in the 6 yet... at this point who knows if they will anymore
 

Genesis

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 26, 2003
Location
Sevier County TN
TDI
'03 Jetta Wagon
There are apparently problems with fuel dilution in the Skyactiv-D engines. I've heard from multiple sources that they're having issues with it in Europe and they don't want to bring it over here until they're very sure that's sorted.

That engine is very interesting in that it's a low compression engine (for a diesel anyway); a very different concept than what we're used to in diesels.

I'm rather likely to buy a 6 in the next year or so. I simply can't bring myself to buy the new TDIs with all the additional and expensive crap on them that is likely to cost me a bundle down the road, .vs. the much-simpler normally-aspirated gas engine -- oh, and I can get it with a stick as well, which is also a requirement from my point of view.
 

2.2TDI

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Joined
May 1, 2011
Location
TDI
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^ this, just having a turbo I realize now how much of a pain in the *** they are... too bad everyone is leaning toward smaller turbo engines, and while the new diesels do have a bunch of new emissions systems, gassers will apparently require a similar system to a DPF, or a GPF in this case, by 2017... think I remember someone posting that here
 

gulfcoastguy

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2012
Location
MS Gulfcoast
TDI
TDI sold, Mazda 3 purchased
Yep gasoline will have to have it's sulfur lowered from 50 ppm to 10 ppm by the end of next year that will increase the cost of gas $ 0.06 to $0..09 by the end of next year. What that means will be whatever California decides that it means.
 

DasTeknoViking

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2010
Location
Palatine IL
TDI
B4 TDi, A4 R32
I got a 2.0 Tsi Jetta SportWagen with a Dsg and recently compared it to a dsg Mkvi Golf TDi which was my loaner. On my commute to work I can get 30mpg which is city driving but not many lights, same identical drive in the TDi netted me 35mpg. TDi was fun but when it came to passing power, it was gutless. Top it off it sounded terrible to me, the Tsi makes all the right sounds when you push it. I have a TDi B4 with a bunch of mods, and it just doesn't compare in noise and vibration to new cars. But it's sheer power makes the new TDi feel like a Geo Metro XFi.

When you look at how much stuff can go wrong on a TDi in a long run. Between all these sensors and costly dpf... Tsi sounds like a better deal.

FYI 2.0T was available one year only in a JSW, it came with every option pretty much and they make 3k of them for the USA.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk
 

DieselRacer

banned
Joined
Oct 4, 2013
Location
AZ-NV
TDI
BMW Advanced Diesel...2011 BMW 335d
Any Japanese 4 banger is going to get good MPG, they have been doing this for 20 years, my 2000 Civic got 33mpg ave, that was 14 years ago, let's all have a Parade...:confused:
 

tdi90hp

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2002
Location
Canuckland
TDI
2011 Golf TDI 6 speed(gone but NEVER forgotten)
how is the resale? I had worked out that I could recoup the difference between the tdi and the 1.8tsi if i resold it in 5 years. With that in mind, it would come to personal driving preference.
Resale is an issue for sure. Here is how I did. I bought the Highline TDI in Feb 2011. 28K Canadian. I traded it in Feb 2014 because I am a year away at least from looking at a Mark 7 as I have no interest in early production. I got exactly 17.5K for my car and the new car was 18 and change + Freight and Tax diff...gave him a cheque for 3K and change. Whats important here is that it cost me 10.5K to drive for 3years/36 months = 291 dollars a month to drive a new car. TDI. Not bad really. That is Canadian dollars net of taxes. My car had 108,000kms and they sold it fast for high 18's as I saw it on their website. It needed nothing. I got the tax savings for trading. THIS Mazda will do as well as it's a BASE car. If I got the 2.5L with all the trimmings and Auto and all the toys I don't think it would be worth 17K in 3 years. I just wanted a cheap option to NOT replace tires do any more maintenance and get a full warranty while the Golf 7 settles in to the marketplace and I decide when to make my move. Meanwhile the Mazda is fun and zippy and pretty damned fuel efficient and makes a compelling case against a current Mark 6 for mileage when cost of fuel is factored in. The new Golf 4 door at 19,995 Canadian with a 1.8T looks like a decent Value as well but was 3K more than the 3er as well with no 6 speed and no indie suspension and unknown real world fuel economy. On the rust side Mazda has recently upped their rust warranty to 8 years from 5 years and I am fully aware of past rust issues. I wont own this car in 2-3 years but it's obviously been an issue for a long time. Maybe it's fixed. Maybe not. Tough to beat a VW on body integrity. Our Volvo is the same. They flat out don't rust(or very little). The gas engine aint dead and VW and Mazda and others are making a solid run at huge improvements in mileage on the highway anyways. And I get a TIMING CHAIN and NO fuel filters. So the race is on....and consumers WIN
 

2.2TDI

Veteran Member
Joined
May 1, 2011
Location
TDI
⠀⠀
Resale is an issue for sure. Here is how I did. I bought the Highline TDI in Feb 2011. 28K Canadian. I traded it in Feb 2014 because I am a year away at least from looking at a Mark 7 as I have no interest in early production. I got exactly 17.5K for my car and the new car was 18 and change + Freight and Tax diff...gave him a cheque for 3K and change. Whats important here is that it cost me 10.5K to drive for 3years/36 months = 291 dollars a month to drive a new car. TDI. Not bad really. That is Canadian dollars net of taxes. My car had 108,000kms and they sold it fast for high 18's as I saw it on their website. It needed nothing. I got the tax savings for trading. THIS Mazda will do as well as it's a BASE car. If I got the 2.5L with all the trimmings and Auto and all the toys I don't think it would be worth 17K in 3 years. I just wanted a cheap option to NOT replace tires do any more maintenance and get a full warranty while the Golf 7 settles in to the marketplace and I decide when to make my move. Meanwhile the Mazda is fun and zippy and pretty damned fuel efficient and makes a compelling case against a current Mark 6 for mileage when cost of fuel is factored in. The new Golf 4 door at 19,995 Canadian with a 1.8T looks like a decent Value as well but was 3K more than the 3er as well with no 6 speed and no indie suspension and unknown real world fuel economy. On the rust side Mazda has recently upped their rust warranty to 8 years from 5 years and I am fully aware of past rust issues. I wont own this car in 2-3 years but it's obviously been an issue for a long time. Maybe it's fixed. Maybe not. Tough to beat a VW on body integrity. Our Volvo is the same. They flat out don't rust(or very little). The gas engine aint dead and VW and Mazda and others are making a solid run at huge improvements in mileage on the highway anyways. And I get a TIMING CHAIN and NO fuel filters. So the race is on....and consumers WIN
Indeed if it's only for 2-3 years I wouldn't care about the rust at all, especially since you've mentioned the rust warranty is now 8 years...I would have to agree that it's hard to argue the numbers of new gassers like this new mazda 3 when it comes to fuel prices and how much savings a TDI will offer nowadays... it somewhat boils down to preference I guess and if you want to drive a diesel...because you want to drive a diesel... of course, if you want say a small SUV like the GLK... I would imagine it's a no brainer to go with the GLK 250 bluetec then 350 gassers just because the 250 is cheaper to begin with, same goes for the E, GL, and S class (I think), of course this is just for comparison sake when it comes to cost of a diesel car vs gas car... not many people have over 50K to shell out just like that
 

Noahsson

New member
Joined
Dec 22, 2013
Location
NC
TDI
2009 Jetta TDI
Any Japanese 4 banger is going to get good MPG, they have been doing this for 20 years, my 2000 Civic got 33mpg ave, that was 14 years ago, let's all have a Parade...:confused:

33 is not great by todays standards. I have a 2012 Skyactive Mazda 3. It's EPA rated at 40 MPG Hwy. I'm actually getting closer to 45 Hwy and my wife has averaged about 39 MPG (city/hwy combined) consistenly for the last two years. By Comparison my 2009 Jetta TDI gets only slightly more on the higway. I'm very impressed with my Mazda.
 
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