NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation
- Thread starter dzcad90
- Start date
Lightflyer1
Top Post Dawg
Thank you!
istone
Member
a quick update:
I heard back from an NHTSA investigator who asked some follow up questions. He specifically asked about biodiesel, and what VW did to test and/or prove the biodiesel levels. I have not yet inquired with VW about this.
I also asked the investigator if he could help by talking with VW of A, or my local dealer, to help my cause in getting it fixed under warranty. I'm not sure still if he intervened, or not, but i just got the call from VW that it is going to be covered under warranty. PHEW! thank you all VERY, VERY MUCH for all of your insights and help and advice, both here on the board and through PM's.
Now, to decide whether to keep this thing or sell it now while still under warranty
2010, wagon tdi, 48k miles .
I heard back from an NHTSA investigator who asked some follow up questions. He specifically asked about biodiesel, and what VW did to test and/or prove the biodiesel levels. I have not yet inquired with VW about this.
I also asked the investigator if he could help by talking with VW of A, or my local dealer, to help my cause in getting it fixed under warranty. I'm not sure still if he intervened, or not, but i just got the call from VW that it is going to be covered under warranty. PHEW! thank you all VERY, VERY MUCH for all of your insights and help and advice, both here on the board and through PM's.
Now, to decide whether to keep this thing or sell it now while still under warranty
2010, wagon tdi, 48k miles .
Lightflyer1
Top Post Dawg
Some have had 2 failures but not many at all. I would presume you should be okay for many miles. If you keep it use good fuel with less than 5% bio and save your receipts at least for a while. Good luck with whatever choice you make!
istone
Member
does anyone know if the fuel pumps they are putting in as replacements are the "newer" design or the old? ( i was told this is a 1300 or 1500 $ part)
i most certainly will follow that advice if i decide to keep it...
anyone wanna buy a jetta? LOL, j/k.
GoFaster
Moderator at Large
The replacement pumps are only the newest versions. There's no logical reason why they would even continue manufacturing the previous versions given that the latest one is a direct replacement.
istone
Member
agreed, but ive seen much more illogical things happen. Thanks for the confirmation...
Lightflyer1
Top Post Dawg
Search here to find where the number is on the pump and have a mirror handy to go look at it. Post the part number back up here if you would please.
darrelld
Veteran Member
I used one of these to check my TDI(s) pump info.
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...=inspection+mirror&storeId=10051#.UGIjVBihCek
flyboy320
Veteran Member
Here is a thread with the pumps serial number for different VW's.
Second Turbo
Veteran Member
The second lightning bolt
Lightflyer1: > Some have had 2 failures but not many at all.
If the failure was precipitated by a station problem, it could happen again, and quite promptly.
Station problems could include RUG-contamination, water, low/no lubricity agent in the batch, or a combination thereof.
It would be worth asking the VW dealer for anything they know about contributory factors in your case, or any stations they suggest avoiding.
Use alternate stations for a while. Avoid those that don't seem to have many dzl customers.
US diesel fuel is bilge, even when it meets ASTM. The CP4 may have been designed to just barely survive on US spec fuel. Despite redesign, it may not yet handle US reality fuel. A big problem seems to be that the crucial lubricity agent is added only very late in the "pipeline" (at the terminal, if they remember, and get it right) because the agent is reportedly not allowed in national pipelines. Pre-CR VW TDIs run just fine on bilge.
Lightflyer1: > Some have had 2 failures but not many at all.
If the failure was precipitated by a station problem, it could happen again, and quite promptly.
Station problems could include RUG-contamination, water, low/no lubricity agent in the batch, or a combination thereof.
It would be worth asking the VW dealer for anything they know about contributory factors in your case, or any stations they suggest avoiding.
Use alternate stations for a while. Avoid those that don't seem to have many dzl customers.
US diesel fuel is bilge, even when it meets ASTM. The CP4 may have been designed to just barely survive on US spec fuel. Despite redesign, it may not yet handle US reality fuel. A big problem seems to be that the crucial lubricity agent is added only very late in the "pipeline" (at the terminal, if they remember, and get it right) because the agent is reportedly not allowed in national pipelines. Pre-CR VW TDIs run just fine on bilge.
amy1000
Well-known member
Wesleybyars
Member
Jetta TDI in shop
On monday, 9/24/12 while driving my 2009 Jetta TDI, the car began to feel sluggish, glo plug began to flash, panel flashed a warning "engine failure, Workshop!" and the car lost all power. Read in the manual to try to drive to service, car would not crank. Assumed something mechanical, so I called my dealership and asked who should tow to them. Wrecker sent, car towed, hoped for a simple fix. Tuesday afternoon, service manager calls and says I have encountered some "bad fuel" and I need to trace where I bought it. I knew right away where and when I purchased, as I always use the same pump at the same station for my fueling. I went to try to get a printed receipt, because unfortunately I depend on the internet to track everything (will never happen again) and was told that I would have to get one from my credit card company. Called the home office of the gas station to discuss possible contamination, given a voicemail. Dealer says 3rd party extended warranty was coming out to inspect the vehicle on wednesday. As you can imagine, warranty company denies claiming they found unleaded gasoline in the car (although service techs inital report refutes this) and we get a report to this effect. We ask for a sample of fuel to test, it appears to have something besides diesel in the bottle but upon discussion with the tech present when we arrived, there was no way unleaded was put in the gas tank and the car driven 450.5 miles. He said and others in the same facility agreed that the car would have quit a mile down the road. Began to research and found this forum and we are quiite frankly disgusted by VW and NHSTA for agreeing that any of this could be human error. IF the pump can't function with the diesel fuel sold in the area, then they should recall the vehicle. Who would know to search for fuel somewhere else? We are experienced diesel fuel users, from tractors to cars and trucks, and it is not acceptable to place this blame on us and sweep under the rug. Dealership is trying to help, claiming that the car had a different pump, we need to go to the gas company, blah blah blah. Look, they know about the issue, know about the product. Just fix the problem and move on. What normal family has $8000 lying around just to give VW to fix an issue that they should have put right from the start? Please advise, we are filing a complaint with NHTSA, but not convinced this will be made right.
On monday, 9/24/12 while driving my 2009 Jetta TDI, the car began to feel sluggish, glo plug began to flash, panel flashed a warning "engine failure, Workshop!" and the car lost all power. Read in the manual to try to drive to service, car would not crank. Assumed something mechanical, so I called my dealership and asked who should tow to them. Wrecker sent, car towed, hoped for a simple fix. Tuesday afternoon, service manager calls and says I have encountered some "bad fuel" and I need to trace where I bought it. I knew right away where and when I purchased, as I always use the same pump at the same station for my fueling. I went to try to get a printed receipt, because unfortunately I depend on the internet to track everything (will never happen again) and was told that I would have to get one from my credit card company. Called the home office of the gas station to discuss possible contamination, given a voicemail. Dealer says 3rd party extended warranty was coming out to inspect the vehicle on wednesday. As you can imagine, warranty company denies claiming they found unleaded gasoline in the car (although service techs inital report refutes this) and we get a report to this effect. We ask for a sample of fuel to test, it appears to have something besides diesel in the bottle but upon discussion with the tech present when we arrived, there was no way unleaded was put in the gas tank and the car driven 450.5 miles. He said and others in the same facility agreed that the car would have quit a mile down the road. Began to research and found this forum and we are quiite frankly disgusted by VW and NHSTA for agreeing that any of this could be human error. IF the pump can't function with the diesel fuel sold in the area, then they should recall the vehicle. Who would know to search for fuel somewhere else? We are experienced diesel fuel users, from tractors to cars and trucks, and it is not acceptable to place this blame on us and sweep under the rug. Dealership is trying to help, claiming that the car had a different pump, we need to go to the gas company, blah blah blah. Look, they know about the issue, know about the product. Just fix the problem and move on. What normal family has $8000 lying around just to give VW to fix an issue that they should have put right from the start? Please advise, we are filing a complaint with NHTSA, but not convinced this will be made right.
FirstOrbit84
Veteran Member
didn't think that '09's had the CR TDI?? and therefore have no HPFP, right?
WutGas?
Veteran Member
09s were the first year of the CR in NA, with the most amount of failures as well.
kjclow
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2003
- Location
- Charlotte, NC
- TDI
- 2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
Sorry to hear about your failure. Have you requested a copy of the warranty companies fuel test? Have you sent your own fuel sample for testing?
Contact VWOA customer service if the dealer drags his feet on this replacement. They have been stepping up and replacing failures over the last year or so. Good to see that you have already filed with NHTSA. There are other threads on here for reporting the failure too. As owners of these cars, we all like to keep track of who, what, and when. We pretty much know the why and how.
Good luck.
All of the VW diesels currently sold in North America are common rail and VW started with the clean diesel introduction with the 2009 model year.
Plus 3 Golfer
Veteran Member
Wesleybyars, welcome to the "clubs" - TDIClub and HPFP failure club.
It's a shame that it takes a potential $8k repair for owners to find the club and be made aware of the potential "ticking time bomb".
Like kjclow says, if you haven't do so yet, open a case with VW of America and be persistent. They have taken care of pumps out side of warranty through good will for original owners (2nd owners have not had favorable results with VoA). Also, talk to the station manager as they may have had others that have had fuel issues around the same time as your fillup. It's likely to late to get a fuel sample from the station as the station likely has had fuel deliveries. In addition, your insurance company may cover the damages less deductible.
How many miles on car? Can you elaborate on the "different pump? Are you the original owner? Did the report from the warranty company also contain the test lab results? If so, what was the % contamination with gasoline? NHTSA has asked VW for studies on the level of gas contamination that causes failures.
I can sympathize with you as dealer initially blamed bad fuel in my case. But mine was covered under the 5/60 power train warranty. I like you told the dealer, I put every drop of fuel in the tank from diesel pumps and have been doing so since 1977 and have never grabbed the wrong pump handle. I also had receipts.
Good luck.
It's a shame that it takes a potential $8k repair for owners to find the club and be made aware of the potential "ticking time bomb". Like kjclow says, if you haven't do so yet, open a case with VW of America and be persistent. They have taken care of pumps out side of warranty through good will for original owners (2nd owners have not had favorable results with VoA). Also, talk to the station manager as they may have had others that have had fuel issues around the same time as your fillup. It's likely to late to get a fuel sample from the station as the station likely has had fuel deliveries. In addition, your insurance company may cover the damages less deductible.
How many miles on car? Can you elaborate on the "different pump? Are you the original owner? Did the report from the warranty company also contain the test lab results? If so, what was the % contamination with gasoline? NHTSA has asked VW for studies on the level of gas contamination that causes failures.
I can sympathize with you as dealer initially blamed bad fuel in my case. But mine was covered under the 5/60 power train warranty. I like you told the dealer, I put every drop of fuel in the tank from diesel pumps and have been doing so since 1977 and have never grabbed the wrong pump handle. I also had receipts.
Good luck.
LRTDI
Veteran Member
All it takes is one story like Wesleybyars to convince a whole ton of people not to get a tdi.
People get the shop to show you the test results and test protocol! Don't just believe them!
People get the shop to show you the test results and test protocol! Don't just believe them!
amy1000
Well-known member
2nd pump failure - has anyone asked for extended warranty on fuel system?
I am think about getting rid of my 2010 when I get it back from the shop after my second failure. I am almost out of drive train warranty (59,000+) miles. Replacement pumps July/September work warranteed for 12,000 miles or year...it will be 6 months based on the mileage I put on car. When I asked the customer car person at VOA if they will be able to connect the dots when the fuel rail goes due to cantamination from the original HPFP failure... and cover it. She didn't give a definitive answer.
So my brother asked...why don't you play nice with them and ask them if they can give you a better deal on an extended warranty to cover the fuel system. Has anyone done this??
I am think about getting rid of my 2010 when I get it back from the shop after my second failure. I am almost out of drive train warranty (59,000+) miles. Replacement pumps July/September work warranteed for 12,000 miles or year...it will be 6 months based on the mileage I put on car. When I asked the customer car person at VOA if they will be able to connect the dots when the fuel rail goes due to cantamination from the original HPFP failure... and cover it. She didn't give a definitive answer.
So my brother asked...why don't you play nice with them and ask them if they can give you a better deal on an extended warranty to cover the fuel system. Has anyone done this??
Wesleybyars
Member
Testing sample
We are the second owners of the vehicle, it was a lease through dealer prior to our purchase. Car has 69k and all service has been maintained although I do change the oil and filter myself. I am in the Augusta area and am having a tough time finding someone to test my sample. Gas station said they would test also, warranty company did not. Claimed it did not have "diesel smell" but we have pulled more out of a different tank and they look IDENTICAL. Crying shame, intended to give this to my child leaving for Clemson in the fall and purchase my wife the Toureg she wants.
We did file with VWoA and they assigned a case manager who won't get back to us till next week. (according to csr)
The service manager said that this car already had the upgraded pump, but those are failing too, correct?
We are the second owners of the vehicle, it was a lease through dealer prior to our purchase. Car has 69k and all service has been maintained although I do change the oil and filter myself. I am in the Augusta area and am having a tough time finding someone to test my sample. Gas station said they would test also, warranty company did not. Claimed it did not have "diesel smell" but we have pulled more out of a different tank and they look IDENTICAL. Crying shame, intended to give this to my child leaving for Clemson in the fall and purchase my wife the Toureg she wants.
We did file with VWoA and they assigned a case manager who won't get back to us till next week. (according to csr)
The service manager said that this car already had the upgraded pump, but those are failing too, correct?
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Plus 3 Golfer
Veteran Member
So, it appears that the "different pump" comment indicates that the HPFP was previously changed. If you can get a pic of the tag on the HPFP and post in link, it will show the date of manufacturer. A small digital camera held under the front of the pump works. Ziggy has a spreadheet with the data.
Yes, all revison levels of the HPFPs (that we are aware of) used in the CR Jettas / Golfs are failing.
One other point, if you cannot get this repair covered, you might consider a TDI guru to help with the repair. It's possible to clean many of the parts instead of replacing them. I don't now how close DanG144 is to you but he might be able to help.
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MonsterTDI09
TDIClub Enthusiast, Veteran Member
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2009
- Location
- NoVa/NJ
- TDI
- 2010 Jetta DSG/ up keep on 2009 Jetta DSG 2006 Jetta Pag 2 in North SEA Green
Sorry to here about problems.I have a couple of question.Do you buy your fuel at a high voulem station? How low do let fuel tank get before you fill up?
amy1000
Well-known member
yes to high volume stations and all times before the 'need fuel' light comes on
kjclow
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2003
- Location
- Charlotte, NC
- TDI
- 2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
DanG144 should be about 50 miles (IIRC). He's in the Columbia area.
Ask the dealer for the paperwork on the original pump failure. It might show something similar to Ammy1000's story.
Wesleybyars
Member
Jetta issue.
Sorry. Posted to wrong forum.
Sorry. Posted to wrong forum.
Wesleybyars
Member
Update
Update::: VW covering 100% of this repair. Have to praise the Lord on this one.
Softrockrenegade
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Aug 25, 2011
- Location
- Howellbama, NJ
- TDI
- None...2011 Golf DSG (replaced by VW W/) 2013 Passat SE 6M(bought back) Current 2017 sportwagen TSI 4Motion.
Great news !
NewLyme
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Feb 28, 2012
- Location
- New Lyme, Ohio
- TDI
- His 2006 Jetta TDI DSG. Hers 2016 Touareg TDI 2013 Golf TDI DSG Buyback
.....and pass the ammunition! Thanks for the info you provided.
dieseltdi
Member
Was at the dealer today getting an ECU reflashed and I asked the service manager "off the record" about the fuel pump failures. Candidly she told me that about 80% of the failures that she had seen were in '09 vehicles and the other 20% from early '10 and none of them were from customer misfueling. She hasn't seen any '11 or '12 failures at least at her dealership.