140hp 2.0 CR TDI vs. 170hp 2.0 CR TDI (engine spec differences)

v1k1ng01

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May 29, 2012
Location
Germany
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2011 Golf TDI 4Door DSG (Sold)
Hey Folks,

Though I'm new here, I've not seen another link that chronicles the difference between a 140hp 2.0 Common Rail TDI Engine and a 170hp 2.0 Common Rail TDI Engine (VW TDI vs. GTD). My reasoning here is to document how owners of US spec MK6 Golf TDI’s can effectively upgrade their cars to stock euro spec GTD as far as engine components go. I have been skulking through forms for a while and this is what I know on the subject.

From my understanding the difference lays (for sure) in the Turbo and (possibly) in the fuel injection system. I’m also of the understanding that swapping the turbo in the TDI for the Turbo from the GTD isn’t just an easy bolt on. Does anybody know which stock parts to swap on the Turbo? Also, I have heard the fuel injection systems are somehow different on the GTD, but I saw somewhere that the injectors on the 140CR and 170CR were the same, does anybody have any reliable sources on this?

Also, if anybody know any non ECU tuning upgrades that that surpass stock GTD engine performance please by all means chime in.

Finally as far as engine tuning goes, does anybody know if there is a difference between tuning 140CR TDI and a 170TDI? I’m sure our friends in the Audi (8P) A3 170 CR TDI world may be able to give some pointers on this.

v1k1ng01,
 

veedubfreak

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Denver, Colorado
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2011 golf
Revo can get you to 170hp 300lbft with just an ecu flash. That's going to be the cheapest option for more power. Going to hit up my local Revo dealer tomorrow and see what kind of deal I can get :)
 

db252

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Feb 13, 2010
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CA
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2012 Golf 2005 Jetta 2003 Jetta 2001 Golf
Do you know if the parts are a bolt on, or everything you need to replace to make the conversion?
Everything is a bolt on but you would also need the ecu programmed for those specifics which is large money all together. This leads me to the quote below and is a much more cost effective and equivalent option in the broad spectrum and will also be my end choosing.

Revo can get you to 170hp 300lbft with just an ecu flash. That's going to be the cheapest option for more power. Going to hit up my local Revo dealer tomorrow and see what kind of deal I can get :)
 

OILPowered

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Orange County, CA
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335d (still a TDI, technically)
Revo can get you to 170hp 300lbft with just an ecu flash. That's going to be the cheapest option for more power. Going to hit up my local Revo dealer tomorrow and see what kind of deal I can get :)
I know there seems to be hesitation from many on this forum to have the tune done on cars under warranty.

I really can't recommend it more- the bump in power really puts the car into a whole new category of fun and doesn't effect MPG (other than from your new lead foot ;) ).
 

veedubfreak

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2011 golf
3 0 3 motorsports is booked up pretty well 2 weeks out, I think I'm going to take the week of the 4th off and have them do the tune :) Still trying to decide what springs I want to do though. I think I may just go cheap and do a 1" drop vs spending 1200 on coilovers.
 

v1k1ng01

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May 29, 2012
Location
Germany
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2011 Golf TDI 4Door DSG (Sold)
Everything is a bolt on but you would also need the ecu programmed for those specifics which is large money all together. This leads me to the quote below and is a much more cost effective and equivalent option in the broad spectrum and will also be my end choosing.

What I'm thinking of doing is upgrading the engine, then get the tune for the GTD. I just can't seem find anybody who done that upgrade before.

I talked to the guys over at APR about their GTD tune and when they release it, it's suppose to be a bump to 190hp. I have also seen that ABT allready offers a GTD tune to the same power bump.

Oh, and thanks for the tip on the ecu!
 

ToeBall

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Location
Houston, TX
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2010 VW Jetta Wagon TDI
What I'm thinking of doing is upgrading the engine, then get the tune for the GTD. I just can't seem find anybody who done that upgrade before.

I talked to the guys over at APR about their GTD tune and when they release it, it's suppose to be a bump to 190hp. I have also seen that ABT allready offers a GTD tune to the same power bump.

Oh, and thanks for the tip on the ecu!
Plan on spending a lot more cash then. The differences include a different head, pistons, connecting rods, injectors, HPFP, and turbo. The emissions control stuff is different as well. Ironically, the difference between the euro-spec CR140 and the CR170 is the turbo. Several owners of the CR170 have upgraded the turbo beyond that and a few are pushing around 250 hp. For cost reference, a turbo is probably around $1200-$1400. You'll need a custom exhaust manifold to install it. Then you'll need to import a Euro spec head. A set of injectors is around $2000. HPFP would probably run another $1000 or more. I've looked into it and it's not a cheap project.
 

QuitersLOSE14

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Mar 13, 2012
Location
Orlando, FL
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2010 MK6 Golf TDI
That's a long list of expensive upgrades right there^. It's such a downer when you find out how differently US cars are assembled to meet our standards. Still, 250 HP is very awesome. If my golf had that in it I would never trade the thing in. Toeball, do you happen to know the torque figures for that engine with 250 HP?
 

ToeBall

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Houston, TX
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2010 VW Jetta Wagon TDI
That's a long list of expensive upgrades right there^. It's such a downer when you find out how differently US cars are assembled to meet our standards. Still, 250 HP is very awesome. If my golf had that in it I would never trade the thing in. Toeball, do you happen to know the torque figures for that engine with 250 HP?
I think they software limited it to around 350-400 ft lbs with upgraded con-rods. I'm pretty close to 400 ft lbs on my Golf R with stock con-rods but they're supposedly beefed up from the factory.
 

kappa546

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Jan 30, 2010
Location
Lexington, KY
TDI
Nope
Plan on spending a lot more cash then. The differences include a different head, pistons, connecting rods, injectors, HPFP, and turbo. The emissions control stuff is different as well. Ironically, the difference between the euro-spec CR140 and the CR170 is the turbo. Several owners of the CR170 have upgraded the turbo beyond that and a few are pushing around 250 hp. For cost reference, a turbo is probably around $1200-$1400. You'll need a custom exhaust manifold to install it. Then you'll need to import a Euro spec head. A set of injectors is around $2000. HPFP would probably run another $1000 or more. I've looked into it and it's not a cheap project.
Are the euro heads just more free flowing? wouldn't it be more cost effective to have the exhaust head ported and the block itself while you're at it?

(newb)
 

ToeBall

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2010 VW Jetta Wagon TDI
Are the euro heads just more free flowing? wouldn't it be more cost effective to have the exhaust head ported and the block itself while you're at it?
(newb)
No, completely different. European and US injectors are not interchangeable.
 

Crawfish00

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Jetta sportwagen, Jetta TDI
The old programmer for c2 motorsports is also making a tune for the tdi.. Ill assume it'll be more custom than revo.. I for got the name of his company but when I remember I'll figure it out.
 

v1k1ng01

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2011 Golf TDI 4Door DSG (Sold)
Plan on spending a lot more cash then. The differences include a different head, pistons, connecting rods, injectors, HPFP, and turbo. The emissions control stuff is different as well. Ironically, the difference between the euro-spec CR140 and the CR170 is the turbo. Several owners of the CR170 have upgraded the turbo beyond that and a few are pushing around 250 hp. For cost reference, a turbo is probably around $1200-$1400. You'll need a custom exhaust manifold to install it. Then you'll need to import a Euro spec head. A set of injectors is around $2000. HPFP would probably run another $1000 or more. I've looked into it and it's not a cheap project.
@Toeball, Where did you find out that 140CR US spec and Euro spec were so different? Since on the Euro 140CR, the only difference is a turbo it would seem logical to me that a simple turbo and engine upgrade on a US Spec 140CR would give someone's TDI the power bump of a tuned GTD that I'm loking for. If this itseems fairly retarded that VW would nurf the car like that. Since I'm living over in Germany I may consider doing the engine conversion to Euro spec if it's cheaper then a trade in.
 

Charrigan

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Jan 10, 2012
Location
Ann Arbor,Mi
TDI
09 Jetta
The CBBB head is different but the turbo will bolt up to the CBEA head. The exhaust manifold gaskets are the same part numbers. You can find used CBBB turbo's for ~$700.

I have also been told that the injectors can flow enough for the cr170 turbo. I am compiling the parts needed to do a CBBB turbo, s3 fmic, and downpipe. Who knows... I may be the first in the US to do this turbo.

I personally would be happy with 200whp and over 300lbft of torque.
 

ToeBall

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Apr 24, 2010
Location
Houston, TX
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2010 VW Jetta Wagon TDI
@Toeball, Where did you find out that 140CR US spec and Euro spec were so different? Since on the Euro 140CR, the only difference is a turbo it would seem logical to me that a simple turbo and engine upgrade on a US Spec 140CR would give someone's TDI the power bump of a tuned GTD that I'm loking for. If this itseems fairly retarded that VW would nurf the car like that. Since I'm living over in Germany I may consider doing the engine conversion to Euro spec if it's cheaper then a trade in.
I spent a fair bit of time talking to several tuners. Kyle from PDE, Mark from Malone Tuning. I don't think it's so much buggering up the car for the US market, but rather getting it to pass emissions in California; things of that nature. The fact is, we have different fuel than Europe, so different software and hardware is needed to get our vehicles to do what they're supposed to on our fuel. If they've already got to shell out for different stuff, I can't say I blame them for cheaping out on their smallest market.

The CBBB head is different but the turbo will bolt up to the CBEA head. The exhaust manifold gaskets are the same part numbers. You can find used CBBB turbo's for ~$700.

I have also been told that the injectors can flow enough for the cr170 turbo. I am compiling the parts needed to do a CBBB turbo, s3 fmic, and downpipe. Who knows... I may be the first in the US to do this turbo.

I personally would be happy with 200whp and over 300lbft of torque.
You're not. There's a few guys running 225+ hp with VNT2256VK swaps. but they did the Euro head conversion. The problem isn't the turbo, though 200 hp is about the limit on the stock turbo, the problem is the injectors can only flow enough fuel to run about the 184 hp of the Malone stage 2 tune. You can get to that 200 hp that the turbo can support with the stock fuel system by raising fuel rail pressure, but with the HPFP issues people have had, I'd rather not, personally.

I will be upgrading the intercooler in my JSW in the next week or two. I've got a plastic tank variant of the S3 intercooler that came out of my Golf R that can go in here. I'm hoping to see some minor increase in mileage from it, but the power difference should be minimal since the fuel system is the limiting factor.
 
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v1k1ng01

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2011 Golf TDI 4Door DSG (Sold)
Thanks for the info Toeball that really helps out a lot!
 
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Charrigan

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Joined
Jan 10, 2012
Location
Ann Arbor,Mi
TDI
09 Jetta
Are people truly seeing unsafe drops in rail pressure when trying to push beyond a stage 2 tune?

I was under the impression the reason custom stage2 tunes were not making more power was to keep egt's at safe levels. Our high egt's are primarily caused by the small turbo.

If the stock turbo can safely be pushed to close to 200whp I would go that route. The best ways to lower egt's with a larger turbo out of the equation is more air (intake), better intercooler, and w/m.
 

ToeBall

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Apr 24, 2010
Location
Houston, TX
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2010 VW Jetta Wagon TDI
Are people truly seeing unsafe drops in rail pressure when trying to push beyond a stage 2 tune?

I was under the impression the reason custom stage2 tunes were not making more power was to keep egt's at safe levels. Our high egt's are primarily caused by the small turbo.

If the stock turbo can safely be pushed to close to 200whp I would go that route. The best ways to lower egt's with a larger turbo out of the equation is more air (intake), better intercooler, and w/m.
Several incorrect things here. It's not drops in rail pressure that are the problem but injection windows. The injectors themselves are too small. Also, the harder you push a turbine beyond it's efficiency range the hotter it will run, so we're really bumping against that limitation. Pushing for more air from the turbo raises heat more, not less. An intercooler helps, as does an intake because it allows better flow (volume) which would lower EGT's but it's not enough to compensate for the turbo heating up.
 

Gertrudevw

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Peoria, AZ
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2012 VW Golf TDI
malone stage 2

Toeball, I see you have the malone stage 2. I saw the specs for thai on their website and it gives us like 180 ho. I have been debating between revo and malone. How do you like the stage 2 tune? That's what I really want but they say it's only for off road use. How had it affected emissions for your car? And is reliability the same for the motor? Thanks

2012 golf tdi with blue I
 

JM Popaleetus

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Connecticut
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Signature.
The engines are mostly the same. Different ECU and some stronger engine components. Another big thing, if I recall correctly, is that they don't have as strict emissions requirements. Therefore, their DPF can be more high flow. To give you some numbers...

GTD is pulling 170 Metric HP (167 in the USA) and 258lbs-ft, whereas a chipped TDI is doing 184HP and 333lbs-ft. Finally, a chipped GTD is doing 226HP and 354lbs-ft.
 

JM Popaleetus

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Toeball, I see you have the malone stage 2. I saw the specs for thai on their website and it gives us like 180 ho. I have been debating between revo and malone. How do you like the stage 2 tune? That's what I really want but they say it's only for off road use. How had it affected emissions for your car? And is reliability the same for the motor? Thanks

2012 golf tdi with blue I
I honestly don't think a Stage 2 is worth it. The gain over a Stage 1 is minimal.

The only way I'd consider it is if my DPF died.
 

ToeBall

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Houston, TX
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2010 VW Jetta Wagon TDI
Toeball, I see you have the malone stage 2. I saw the specs for thai on their website and it gives us like 180 ho. I have been debating between revo and malone. How do you like the stage 2 tune? That's what I really want but they say it's only for off road use. How had it affected emissions for your car? And is reliability the same for the motor? Thanks
2012 golf tdi with blue I
I love my tune. If you do nothing else to the car it'll be completely transparent. You can keep the DPF in place. To be honest, my dad's running the stage 1 on his Golf and my brother's got the stage 2. More or less, identical cars otherwise. The way they drive is very close. I honestly can't tell that the 2 is more powerful than the 1 in that configuration.
 

sprytdi

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Aug 14, 2012
Location
seattle
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mk6 golf
Are there moded hpfp available for this application yet, aftermarket pressure regulators n such? can you, has anyone upped the rail pressure and ported the fuel rail inlet? The fuel system filters down to what micron level? Is the hpfp a gear driven/direct drive off the engine, or is it belt or electric/driven?

There are many aftermarket facilities that can increase the flow rate and balance your injector tips, exergy is one of the best, imo. Where can you, how can you get more fuel to the injector is my question.
 

v1k1ng01

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May 29, 2012
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Germany
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2011 Golf TDI 4Door DSG (Sold)
So where can a guy buy a euro spec cbbb engine?
Getting the engine euro spec will probably be a feat to pull off unless you special order it from somewhere in Europe. I think the closest thing on the US market is the 2.0TDI out of the A3. At the point of buying a new engine it might just be better to buy the A3 instead of the Golf…
 
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