symptoms of gas in TDI

[Victor-Whiskey]

The lady I sold my '10 JSW TDI to called me today and asked what would happen if gas, and not diesel, were put in the car. I immediately told her to NOT start it. She already had. She said it seemed to be running rougher after her 17 yr old daughter drove it, and fueled it. Her daughter swore she put in diesel. I told her if she filled it with gas, she would know it. I didn't scare her with the hard truth, just said it wouldn't run at all. She didn't have a receipt, so checked her bank account for info and noticed her debit card account had two charges from the gas station. One for $2 something and another for the $30 something a few minutes apart. She suspects her daughter began filling it with gas, noticed, then finished with diesel. Again, daughter denies it and says she didn't buy anything else with the debit card.
What would the symptoms of ~.75 gal of RUG be? Assuming a worse case scenario, it was filled with ~.75 gal of RUG, what advice should I give her? It is possible her daughter is telling the truth and there's an explanation for two charges. What I told her under NO circumstance to repeat her suspicions to the dealer. I think she is being paranoid, but I am trying to help.

 

[PaulGiz]

This just makes me sad.

P.

 

[Seatman]

Yeh rough running, a bit of banging and not reving properly but most of the diesel cars and turbo diesel ones seem to run better after the experience for some reason

 

[Victor-Whiskey]

This morning I brought her my leftover Stanadyne and B100, put in 4 oz and 2qts respectively. And, I advised her about using additives. Cars idle did seem different, and did seem to run a little rough. I have no liability in this and she doesn't blame me, but feel bad for her. Nice lady, just not sure what advice to give her. At a minimum she needs to go to the dealer prepared. Still haven't mentioned it could be a $8k mistake yet. Again, it could be a simple problem.
I wish I had gone through with my trade-in and not sold it myself now.

 

[torqueit]

I suspect if she makes it through this tank, it will be exceedingly difficult for VW to claim that a failure that occurs during a later tankful was caused by the misfueling error (if there was one).

3/4 of a gallon of RUG doesn't sound that bad unless it was into an empty tank. I suppose the lubricity of the existing diesel would have an effect as well.

 

[BlueGraphite'10TDI]

I know that some fuel stations here in AZ only charge a dollar or 2 and then post the remaining fuel charges at a later time. So maybe the daughter is telling the truth, maybe not. Still sounds really depressing though. Hope she makes it out alright.

 

[eddif]

I suspect if she makes it through this tank, it will be exceedingly difficult for VW to claim that a failure that occurs during a later tankful was caused by the misfueling error (if there was one).

3/4 of a gallon of RUG doesn't sound that bad unless it was into an empty tank. I suppose the lubricity of the existing diesel would have an effect as well.

Back in the day (way back). Some trucks used 1 gallon of gasoline in 80 gallons of diesel, to get the flame to stand out of the exhaust pipe (non turbo Macks I believe.

I would consider draining the tank now, or adding some 2 stroke oil for lubrication. Just admitt that it might have happened, and try and help the situation. If you are possibly running that much gasoline I would do something. My non turbo Isuzu will tolerate some gasoline, but that 1/2 gallon is a bit much in a turbo diesel.

eddif

 

[grifgolf]

her debit card account had two charges from the gas station. One for $2 something and another for the $30 something a few minutes apart.

As a previous poster noted, this double-billing is sometimes normal behavior with debit cards at gas stations. The first small amount is used as a preauthorization, for the station to make sure the card is valid and can be charged against. The remainder after filling is billed as a second amount, or sometimes it contains the whole amount and the first charge is dropped a few days later.

See for example:
http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/scams/gascharge.asp

 

[eddif]

What would the symptoms of ~.75 gal of RUG be? Assuming a worse case scenario, it was filled with ~.75 gal of RUG, what advice should I give her? It is possible her daughter is telling the truth and there's an explanation for two charges. What I told her under NO circumstance to repeat her suspicions to the dealer. I think she is being paranoid, but I am trying to help.

Well there are the two answers.

1.. advice for roughly 7 oz of gasoline per gallon of diesel (the Macks used rouhly 1.5 oz per gallon-- cast iron head, no turbo, tolerant injection pump).
A.. drain
B.. add lubricant

2.. everyone is letting their mind run wild.

Hopefully​

the car is the same as always (it just seemed louder from worry) The card double post may have been answered.
++++++++++++

The VW HPFP is already stressed from NA fuel. The double lobe cam and roller will not tolerate contaminates on top of the substandard fuel. I would think a quart of gasoline in a full tank of diesel would be way too much.

eddif

 

[Victor-Whiskey]

I informed the lady of the potential $8-10k in damage, emailed her forum posts. She went ballistic, daughter confessed to putting in gas. My guess is ~.75 gal based on the dollar amount. On my advice (I got from you guys), the car is being towed to an independent shop to have tank drained, lines purged, and filter changed. I advised her to tell the mechanic to check for metal flakes in filter and keep it if so. I will get a pic of the filter if metal flakes are found and post. I gave her all my leftover Stanadyne, and B100 and advised on its benefits. Last time car was started, it ran fine with the exception of seeming a little less smooth and with some hesitation, or stutter. It was driven ~6mi total with RUG.

edit: FYI- based on that cars build date, I believe it had the 2nd revision HPFP.

 

[Cogen Man]

Sounds like you're on it. You've given her some solid advice. Kids, what can ya do. She made a mistake, and eventually owned up to it. Good for her. I'm sure she won't make that mistake again. A lot of folks would have said sorry lady, but you own it now. You are to be commended for helping her out. Now you have to get yourself a TDI.

 

[PlaneJob]

What I told her under NO circumstance to repeat her suspicions to the dealer. I think she is being paranoid, but I am trying to help.

WHAT? Trying to get this covered under warranty, as you insinuate, would be amazingly wrong. No wonder the dealer tries to deny every claim out there- *******s are clearly trying to sneak customer caused damages past them. And other (that's you) are encouraging it.

Why is not OK to talk about removing cats, dpfs, etc - but when it comes to STEALING from a company the moderators don't jump in?

Also, what kind of lesson is she teaching her daughter? "Hey, we know you bought 2 things - see it here on the bank statement - but we are going to accept your lie because the truth is too expensive, ok." That sounds like a great life lesson.

 

[dmarsingill]

WHAT? Trying to get this covered under warranty, as you insinuate, would be amazingly wrong. No wonder the dealer tries to deny every claim out there- *******s are clearly trying to sneak customer caused damages past them. And other (that's you) are encouraging it.

Why is not OK to talk about removing cats, dpfs, etc - but when it comes to STEALING from a company the moderators don't jump in?

Also, what kind of lesson is she teaching her daughter? "Hey, we know you bought 2 things - see it here on the bank statement - but we are going to accept your lie because the truth is too expensive, ok." That sounds like a great life lesson.

I strongly disagree. Parts should not be so sensitive to a mis fuel. I do understand a complete system clean, but a liquid pump should be more tolerant.

Donald

 

[JSWTDI09]

I strongly disagree. Parts should not be so sensitive to a mis fuel. I do understand a complete system clean, but a liquid pump should be more tolerant.

Donald

Actually I agree with both you and PlaneJob.

Lying and stealing is bad and teaching your children that this is acceptable is even worse.

However, I also believe that the HPFP issue is a design issue. A little gas (or lack of a lubricity additive) should not cause $10.000 damage to any engine.

We shall see what the long term solution (if any) will be to this issue.

Have Fun!

Don

 

[Conan]

I would consider draining the tank now, or adding some 2 stroke oil for lubrication.
eddif

Isn't that an incredibly bad idea? I can't imagine the DPF or cat would be too happy with that.

 

[Vin63]

Sounds like you're on it. You've given her some solid advice. Kids, what can ya do. She made a mistake, and eventually owned up to it. Good for her. I'm sure she won't make that mistake again. A lot of folks would have said sorry lady, but you own it now. You are to be commended for helping her out. Now you have to get yourself a TDI.

X2...the world definitely needs more people like you. Many of my acquaintances and friends in drag racing have endured this situation when family members or friends try to be helpful and fill up their rigs. The advice you gave about draining the tank and cleaning the fuel system is about all you can do. From your description of the event, it should be fine.

 

[eddif]

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddif
I would consider draining the tank now, or adding some 2 stroke oil for lubrication.
eddif

Isn't that an incredibly bad idea? I can't imagine the DPF or cat would be too happy with that.

Note I offered two solutions. The suggestion was only for this car (with the 1/2 gallon of gasoline. They chose the tank drain.

The other solution is a one time use of 2 stroke oil to avoid the $8,000 disaster that can happen from 3 minutes run time. Best would be never to crank it and get it towed. If you are not going to have it towed then you might consider the 2-stroke oil. This is just if there was the 1/2 gallon of gasoline (not if you put in 1/2 tank of gasoline). Just consider putting in the oil, have three strong men shake the car left and right to mix the oil in the tank where it sits. I mean shake it for minutes, not some whimpy shake---Work up a sweat shaking the car. Crank it, move it, drain it and hope for the best. Much better than doing nothing and running the car for the time it was run (6 minutes or miles ?) and having the possible whole system replacement.

There are several ways to get all this done. The pumps fail with a tiny amount of gasoline for just a few minutes. Added adapters and filter is the only way I know to avoid whole system replacement (done before a failure starts). Of course that is not factory and you are at your own risk. There will come a day when warranty is gone and you will have to make your own plans.

eddif

 

[eddif]

I would like to know the rest of the gasoline filling story.

Did the car have to be driven to another pump before the diesel was put in?

Was the car even started with the 1/2 gallon of gasoline in a partially filled
tank?

What is the whole story?

eddif

 

[Victor-Whiskey]

I just got an email, she got the car back. No metal in filter. Car seems to be running fine now. The shop is a well known local VW shop and they knew what to do. $587 bill. She will use an additive based on my advice. Very experienced VW mechanic told her gas was likely very diluted and she will probably be ok.

I would like to know the rest of the gasoline filling story.

Did the car have to be driven to another pump before the diesel was put in?

Was the car even started with the 1/2 gallon of gasoline in a partially filled
tank?

What is the whole story?

eddif

Daughter borrowed car. Went to fill it up. I don't know how much fuel it already had. Remembered to use diesel when ~$2 of RUG was put in. Pulled the car forward, filled with diesel. Drove home. Mom drives car and it seems to run rough to her. She calls me suspicious her daughter put gas in it. I offer to come over and check it out. Looking for info, she finds the two charges at the gas station. I check it out, car does seem to idle rougher and hesitates on acceleration (wish I hadn't driven it now!). Daughter confesses after mom opens up on her when I told her about the potential damage and cost, she has it towed in. I've been helpful because I believe in treating people the way I want to be treated.

 

[RomanL]

after hearing that her filter did not have any metal flakes, even though there was gasoline in the tank for a little.
makes me wonder, if its not just bad fuel causing HPFP issues? or could it be some kind of defect at production line?

 

[eddif]

after hearing that her filter did not have any metal flakes, even though there was gasoline in the tank for a little.
makes me wonder, if its not just bad fuel causing HPFP issues? or could it be some kind of defect at production line?

This thread:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=284441&page=37
Has some photos information and speculation on what happens to the HPFPs and the whole system..

eddif