From 228mm DMF 240mm DMF

[brum]

Has anybody done this?

I suppose that swapping from the small to the big one DMF will require also gearbox swap. And that is fine. The 6 speed gearbox should be more durable than the 5 speed one.

But there still is one issue that I'm not sure how to solve - the crankshaft. From what I've found as information on the net the 228mm DMF is mounted with 6 screws. The 240mm one - with 8 screws. So it looks like the crankshaft will also need to be replaced. Or?

The car that this is aimed at is VW Passat with AFN engine. There are two 240mm DMFs offered for longitudinal engines and both are from LUK. (several questions to Sachs but all with negative replays about Sachs DMF for longitudinal engines). The LUK part numbers are 415 0114 10 and 415 0244 10. The first is used in both B5 and B5.5, the second - only in B5.5.

 

[brum]

Or it might be my mistake. After looking for images of the both flywheels, both seems to be for 6 screws. Anyway, I'm still looking for someone who have done this and is willing to share what parts were needed. Here are my findings about this:

Gearshift mechanism
Gearbox
DMF
clutch kit
wheel shafts
starter from the 6 speed gearbox (the one for 240mm DMF)
gearbox mountings

 

[JFettig]

I just got my 20lb 228mm SMF and it uses 6 bolts.
It is a Southbend flywheel and stage 3 clutch(I believe) that is supposed to hold 380ft-lbs of torque(not that the transmission can handle this?).

I will be installing this setup on Saturday.

Jon

 

[Scott_DeWitt]

I just got my 20lb 228mm SMF and it uses 6 bolts.
It is a Southbend flywheel and stage 3 clutch(I believe) that is supposed to hold 380ft-lbs of torque(not that the transmission can handle this?).

I will be installing this setup on Saturday.

Jon

Yes Jon you are correct it's a stage III clutch (now Stage II endurance).

You can use the 240mm clutch with a 5 or 6 speed there is ample room in the bell housing for the clutch, but you have to change the flywheel.

 

[brum]

Is this true also for the 240mm DMF with the 240mm clutch? Would they fit inside the housing of the 5 speed gearbox? If so - I would stay with my gearbox (5 speed) and just upgrade the DMF to bigger one. I suppose I should also change the starter motor. Just a bit uncertain if the 240mm kit will fit inside the 5 speed gearbox ... If only someone could confirm this ...

 

[bhodgkiss]

I'm waiting for confirmation on this too - i've got an AVF PD130 240mm clutch and flywheel ready to intall onto my AFN when this is confirmed
Apparently we need the matching starter motor, and also an OEM 6mm spacer to position the clutch axially.

 

[Stressfläkt]

Will be trying to mount the brd 240mm package in my afn in about a month. Patience even if the clutch barely holds in 3rd gear and the weather tempts one to have quattro fun.
Something positive is that the 2.8 v6 model has a 240mm clutch with a 5 speed box. By comparing pictures of its casing against the 5 speed in afn there is no difference except some of the mounting holes. I´ve also compared pictures from 6 speed boxes and they might have little more room in some parts. So I´m hoping German engineers are also lazy and avoid making changes

 

[brum]

If this spacer goes between the engine block and the gearbox separating them by 6mm - this setup may not work. The main shaft in the gearbox goes into a bearing that is inside the crankshaft. Separating them by 6mm may pull the gearbox main shaft too far away from the crankshaft and also from the bearing. And this may be a problem ...

 

[Mikkijayne]

Just for the record all 4 cylinder cranks are 6-bolt and all V6 cranks are 8-bolt.

The spacer is used on the 2.7T V6 found in the B5 and C5 to allow the bigger flywheel & clutch, but it is not used on the 2.5TDI (even though that also uses a 240 clutch), or (afaik) on any of the 4-cylinders.

The flywheel contains the pilot bearing for the V6s, not the crank. I don't think the spacer would work with the 4-cylinder setup because of that.

 

[Scott_DeWitt]

The spacer is used on the 2.7T V6 found in the B5 and C5 to allow the bigger flywheel & clutch, but it is not used on the 2.5TDI (even though that also uses a 240 clutch), or (afaik) on any of the 4-cylinders.

The flywheel contains the pilot bearing for the V6s, not the crank. I don't think the spacer would work with the 4-cylinder setup because of that.

There is no ryhme or reason i can figure out for the spacer on the 2.7tt cars. The 01E was used behind 4 cylinders, V6 tdi (both 3.0 and 2.5), 2.8 gas, VR6, and 4.2 V8's and the only car to use the spacer is the 2.7tt.

Some 4 cylinder cars also used a spacer, but i don't have details on those.

 

[brum]

Does somebody know if the 6 speed manual gearbox and the 5 speed manual one are using the same starter motor? I checked the ETKA, but could not found details on this.

I suppose they both can be the same. All depends on the size and the position of the teeth on the flywheel. For instance the 228mm DMF and the 240mm SMF (026 105 269 L) uses the same starter motor.

I'm preparing for testing if the 240mm DMF combined with the stock 240mm clutch will fit inside the 5 speed manual gearbox housing.

 

[Mikkijayne]

It will depend on the flywheel, not the gearbox. I have an AFN on a 6-speed 01E box with the original 228 DMF and starter from the 5-speed 012 and it works fine.

One part to check is the steel plate which sits between the engine and gearbox and whether it is the same between 228 and 240. If it is then the starter is in the right place radially. All you need to check then is if the ring gear is in the same place axially on the two different FWs.

 

[Stressfläkt]

According to vagcat the 01e103551B 5,5mm spacer is found on all 1.9tdi 6 speed or atleast atj and avf engine in b5 and c5 bodies. 01e103551B that has only 4 cylinder bolt pattern was later replaced by 01x103551 and is 5,7mm it is a universal part that fits even 6 cylinder blocks. 01e103551a/c is 11,2mm thick and is only with 6 cylinder bolt pattern. According to one who fitted a clutch that fits in afn bolt on to a avf needed to remove the spacer to make the clutch work. Other solution would have been to put a spacer behind the release bearing

 

[brum]

So in generally it looks that the 240mm kit will fit inside the 5 speed gearbox. Even LUK are giving their 240mm kit (600 0038 00) for both 5 and 6 speed manual gearboxes. And probably the only think that may have to be done is either to add the spacer or replace the release bearing lever so the 240mm kit can be operated.

But this spacer will move the gearbox away from the crankshaft. So the correct solution would be to replace the release bearing lever. Or just the ball pin that is at the bottom end of the lever...

 

[Mikkijayne]

According to vagcat the 01e103551B 5,5mm spacer is found on all 1.9tdi 6 speed or atleast atj and avf engine in b5 and c5 bodies. 01e103551B that has only 4 cylinder bolt pattern was later replaced by 01x103551 and is 5,7mm it is a universal part that fits even 6 cylinder blocks. 01e103551a/c is 11,2mm thick and is only with 6 cylinder bolt pattern. According to one who fitted a clutch that fits in afn bolt on to a avf needed to remove the spacer to make the clutch work. Other solution would have been to put a spacer behind the release bearing

Interesting stuff thanks

I don't have a spacer in mine. My clutch works but isn't quite right, but the wrong way round to need a spacer - its almost as if it needs the release bearing moving out, and bolting straight to the block. Concensus on Motorgeek is that the clutch hydraulics need bleeding some more, but I haven't got round to trying that yet.

 

[brum]

Hm. One more opinion pointing that the 240mm DMF needs the release bearing to be further from where it is with the 228mm one. So it all may happen just with the ball pin under the lever. Getting better and better .

 

[Mikkijayne]

Googling both your part numbers shows flywheels with large centre bores so the input shaft of the 'box goes straight through them. That says to me that the pilot bearing is still in the crank, so the next thing to check is whether the variants fitted with those flywheels have the same bearing as the 228 or not. On the 228 it is recessed in to the end of the crank, but I know there are other versions for the 6 and 8 cylinder engines that protrude from the crank...

 

[Mikkijayne]

Ok answered my own question:

The 2001 AVF uses the same pilot bearing (056 105 313 C) as the AFN. That means (IMO) the engine is in exactly the same relationship to the gearbox on both too, ie no spacer.

 

[esorense]

The AVF flywheel will without a doubt bolt on to the crank, and using a starter from the same avf will perfectly match the starter ring. You might need to reroute the starter wiring a bit though but that should be no problem. To check If there is room in the gearbox bellhousing is easy enough when you have them both out of the car. Assemble the avf dmf with pp and disc an slide it onto the gearbox. If everything rotates freely, do the same with the stock 228mm flywheel and measure the difference(If any) of the backspacing.

You should then have a clear idea wether or not you need a spacer. My guess is you do not need it but it could mean the difference between being able to use the original clutch slave rod as is, or having to elongate or shorten it.

I put a 1,8turbo 240mm upgrade smf onto my avf quattro and had to elongate the slaverod plus use a starter from a tdi with 228mm FW as standard. Pretty much a straight forward bolt on deal, matching up perfectly

 

[brum]

...had to elongate the slaverod ...

What do you mean by slaverod?

 

[esorense]

The pushrod on the clutch slavecylinder.

 

[brum]

Thanks, I got it now. One more question - you are saying, that changing from 240mm DMF to 240mm SMF required also usage of the starter from a car with 228mm DMF. This means that the starter used with 228mm DMF and 240mm DMF are different. I searched in vagcat.com (online ETKA) but could not find the starter VAG numbers associated with different flywheels. Would you share what is the AVF starter VAG number?

 

[Stressfläkt]

The starter i got for the conversion has part number 068911024H
the standard one can be easily found but this one was not, from pictures you can notice that it has the solenoid on the other side. Other difference is that it does not have the support in the end of the sprocket.

 

[Stressfläkt]

Now for some updates.
Otherwise fine but the starter ring on the supposed brd flywheel is way to back.
About 40mm from the block plane to the ring. The avf starter is about 3mm above block plane during rest. Measured that the starter moves only 15mm out. So it wont work. Had already started to modify the gearbox casing for more room and made room for the starter. Somewhat not surprised.
Have next week time to get the car of the lift.
One of the cv joints had a bad protective rubber (leaking grease). Got three different versions from local parts supplier, none seemed really to fit
Business as usual.

 

[bhodgkiss]

hi stressflakt,

so will a 240mm clutch and DMF off and AVF fit onto a Passat AFN with 5spd box, with AVF starter motor and some spacing?

 

[Stressfläkt]

Can´t answer the question for sure, because I´m not going to test it.
Seems the supposed brd flywheel that should be the same as avf came from some other vag with transversally mounted engine. Noticed that the same ebay seller had a tranversally mounted gearbox for audi a4
Therefore the starter ring is located as far way as possible from the engine.
Before checking the flywheel closer I started to mount the avf starter.
Had problems with it touching the ac compressor. Nothing that a rotating file couldn´t fix. Also the cables for the starter were to short and needed to be lenghtened. The reason for the starter being longer is that it does not have a support in the other end. Probably there wouldn´t be enough room for the support because the axel is mounted of the regular axis.
So because my car is on my friends lift I had to quickly order a bolt on 240mm solid flywheel package. Couldn´t find quickly an avf or similar flywheel for a reasonable price.
Don´t need to mention that i had bad luck ordering the solid package, an email didn´t go through. Years of tuned saabs gives one persistence when having trouble

 

[brum]

Stressfläkt, did the 240mm DMF and the clutch for it fit inside the gearbox/engine assembly?

 

[Stressfläkt]

The dmf I have that is 240mm does fit, needed to make room at the starter region on the bellhousing. A rotating file was usefull. Maybe I should take some pictures that show the places that are thicker on the 5 speed bellhousing than the 6 speed. Also the 5,5mm spacer showed where there´s too much material.
But remeber the flywheel was not the right one and i centered it only by hand inside the bellhousing.

 

[brum]

So you haven't assemble the gearbox/engine block with the 240mm DMF? If so - this does not give answer to the question about the clutch/DMF assembly thickness. If they are will be also other things to be done.

 

[Stressfläkt]

As I wrote earlier got the wrong flywheel, no idea continuing with the installation when the starter can´t reach the starter ring.
Ordered a solid flywheel 240mm package because of time constraints.
So I leave this issue for someone else to try out with better luck getting correct parts. One thing I could help with is take measurements of the standard 228mm height.