Losing my mind... Need turbo advice...

theinternot

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I will try and keep this brief.

I have been trying to trouble shoot a noise for months now. I thought that replacing the EGR cooler had done it, but nope. It's still there.

The noise from inside sounds like a loud metallic, rushing, whooshing, shooshing sound when boost starts to kick in. It seems to originate from near dead center behind the block. During this time I have no power and I feel almost like my clutch is slipping. At about 2400-2600 it "catches", noise disappears, a slight hollow ring right at the end, and then full power returns.

I can make it happen like clockwork. Takes about a full 1-2 seconds to complete, but if I hold the throttle just right I can make it do it for an extended period of up to several seconds.

i also noticed that at idle when I stab the throttle I get a ton of black smoke and the engine will hiccup or flutter for a second.

I originally thought this noise was an issue with the transmission, because it seemed to have started right after doing an SMF conversion... from the inside of the car it seriously sounds metallic, however, from the outside it sounds entirely like boost leak.

What have I done so far?
- Boost leak test = not a squeek
- EGR Cooler replaced = runs slightly better
- Inspected all the intercooler pipes = nothing that would indicate a leak from a crack or slipped connection
- Inspected manifold (as best as I could from underneath). No indications of soot or oiliness except for right below turbo inlet... seems it is leaking right at the coupler.
- turbo inlet had small amount of oil pooled at bottom, no apparent lateral movement of the impeller, didn't test in/out movement. The impeller won't spin even one full revolution if I give it a good twist or blow compressed air at it... so not sure if that is an indication of bad bearings or not.

I did a boost map with VCDS, but I don't know exactly what it is I am looking at. I also rigged a video camera to various areas of my engine bay and got some good recordings, and I have a couple of pics. If you have a moment could you please take a look and see if you could offer up some advice?

Thanks a lot.

Videos (3):

1. Recorded from top of hood looking down at engine (turbo is in rear):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_v1Nvtu13g

2. Recorded from driver side, near rear. Please exscuse my gear crunching. For some reason the transmission didn't want to go in reverse no matter what...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1bQNgsloZQ

3. Next to turbo, pointing down almost directly above it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blfOdi9bUNE

Pics (2):

VCDS BOOST MAP (click to enlarge):

Each spike is a gear shift. The first set being more aggressive than the second set.



TURBO INLET (this is from when I first was trying to figure this noise out a couple of months ago):

 
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greengeeker

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Nice friggin videos internot! How did you mount your camera during?

Sounds like a boost leak to me. I'd start with the EGR flex pipes and gaskets then move onto the intake and exhaust manifold bolts.
 

theinternot

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Thanks. I used an old Flip video recorder and some zip ties for shot from the top of the hood, the other ones I just wedged it in between hoses. I want to get one of those camera mounts with the flexible arms to get a better angle.

I replaced the whole cooler and gaskets... so it's not the EGR. I will take a look at the bolts this weekend. Will probably end up pulling the whole intake manifold, turbo and exhaust... and with my luck.. nothing will be wrong and I will have spent two days for nothing.

If I can't get it fixed after that... bye bye Jetta.

Nice friggin videos internot! How did you mount your camera during?

Sounds like a boost leak to me. I'd start with the EGR flex pipes and gaskets then move onto the intake and exhaust manifold bolts.
 

kooyajerms

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That's a bit dramatic to get rid of her based on the turbo sounds. You may not have luck determining the turbo is bad with a visual inspection, or even checking shaft play. My turbo that went out on me, had no significant shaft play x or y axis. But the seals were shot, and there was no way I could have visually noticed that.

How long has the chip been in? Did it cause the slipping or has it gradually become worse?

Can you do a vcds of log channel 11? That can show us what requested and actual boost is.

What's a thousand dollars if you get to keep the vehicle? Not saying it's for sure a turbo replacement in your future, but what if?
 

theinternot

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I have had a multitude of issues with this car. This is just the final one for me. I have had the car since last March and haven't gone two consecutive weeks without working on something. I have taken it to mechanic's who can't find the problem.

I wish I only spent a thousand bucks. Probably closer 5k if you count my time.

The car has been chipped since about two weeks after I bought it at 89k.

How did you finally determine it was the seals in the Turbo?

I posted a link to the channel 11 log in my original post.

That's a bit dramatic to get rid of her based on the turbo sounds. You may not have luck determining the turbo is bad with a visual inspection, or even checking shaft play. My turbo that went out on me, had no significant shaft play x or y axis. But the seals were shot, and there was no way I could have visually noticed that.

How long has the chip been in? Did it cause the slipping or has it gradually become worse?

Can you do a vcds of log channel 11? That can show us what requested and actual boost is.

What's a thousand dollars if you get to keep the vehicle? Not saying it's for sure a turbo replacement in your future, but what if?
 

kooyajerms

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I use an older version of VCDS, but that's not a log is it? That's a vag scope... but I'm not sure which line is actual, which is requested. Here is what measuring block 11 looks like for me.



How did I figure out the seals were bad? When the engine finally ran away. :(. It was too late, despite my "inspections". Seals blew out in 1 month without warning, so my oil consumption didn't show any problems till it was too late.

Oil on the inlet side of the turbo is not a good sign. Find oil on the turbo inlet pipe towards the maf too?

You need a more capable mechanic, who are you using?
 

theinternot

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I haven't had time to learn vcds properly, so I really don't know what I am doing with it.

So that image is a VAG Scope... how would I do a log?

Thanks for replying to me kooya.

I use an older version of VCDS, but that's not a log is it? That's a vag scope... but I'm not sure which line is actual, which is requested. Here is what measuring block 11 looks like for me.



How did I figure out the seals were bad? When the engine finally ran away. :(. It was too late, despite my "inspections". Seals blew out in 1 month without warning, so my oil consumption didn't show any problems till it was too late.

Oil on the inlet side of the turbo is not a good sign. Find oil on the turbo inlet pipe towards the maf too?

You need a more capable mechanic, who are you using?
 

kooyajerms

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I'll keep replying, if you answer questions =), so back to your other two I asked.


Here is a how to for vagcom. Getting the measuring blocks for maf is a good one too. These require you to push your engine, so keep that in mind if your vehicle will 'splode if you do the logs.
http://malonetuning.com/guides/vagcom/vagcom_logging_guide.pdf
 

theinternot

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Thanks kooya.

I will check out that link this evening... In jury duty at the moment and the signal here is very poor.

Were you getting any unusual noise, too?

I'll keep replying, if you answer questions =), so back to your other two I asked.


Here is a how to for vagcom. Getting the measuring blocks for maf is a good one too. These require you to push your engine, so keep that in mind if your vehicle will 'splode if you do the logs.
http://malonetuning.com/guides/vagcom/vagcom_logging_guide.pdf
 

theinternot

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I don't remember seeing oil there the last time I pulled it off to inspect. Could this be causedby backpressure blowing back through the Turbo inlet?
I also seem to feel like its surging at times.
I have used 2 mechanics off the list here. I didn't get the impression that the first ones were tdi specialists in the least. I left my car with them for three days and they came back and told me
they didn't know what the problem was. The other mechanic was Harvieux from here. No doubt he knows what he is doing, he's just super busy right now.
I use an older version of VCDS, but that's not a log is it? That's a vag scope... but I'm not sure which line is actual, which is requested. Here is what measuring block 11 looks like for me.

How did I figure out the seals were bad? When the engine finally ran away. :(. It was too late, despite my "inspections". Seals blew out in 1 month without warning, so my oil consumption didn't show any problems till it was too late.
Oil on the inlet side of the turbo is not a good sign. Find oil on the turbo inlet pipe towards the maf too?
You need a more capable mechanic, who are you using?
 
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Rattler05.5

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Lame

Still didn't fix it huh? Was it initially better after the EGR Cooler replacement? Can you point us to the specific sound in the clips. At what time marker in which video are you noticing the sound that you are referencing?:confused:

I am taking mine in on Friday to have the T-belt done and while there I am having them do the EGR block off with a Kerma Tune. I get the sound in the vidoe above the turbo at 46.5 seconds right now. phonetically spelled like, Vvvvvt. (I feel stupid typing that!) :eek:

I'm sure hoping that will take care of my problem or else I am in the same boat that you are in! Save the selling of my car, I love this thing.

Just think, when you replace the whole thing then you KNOW that it is all in tip top shape! Keep up the fight, I sold my last Tdi and had to drive a gasser for 18 months or so and cursed it every time I filled up! Loving my TDI!

Innocent or Guilty!?
 

theinternot

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Hey rattler!!!

Yup. Still having issues. It seemed better, but I always seem to finish things late at night, things seem fine, next day its back again.

I will try to post the timestamps of the noise occurring later tonight, but basically on every up shift it will hiss. It doesn't sound at all the same inside the car vs. outside. Inside it sounds much worse... very raspy and metallic.

I hope the egr delete fixes your issue. My egr cooler was bad. The valve would actually stick for a half second when I would actuate it manually. Also, the duration of "the noise" is much shorter.

Guilty or innocent... no clue... just sitting in the jury pool waiting... with extremely flakey wifi :(

Still didn't fix it huh? Was it initially better after the EGR Cooler replacement? Can you point us to the specific sound in the clips. At what time marker in which video are you noticing the sound that you are referencing?:confused:

I am taking mine in on Friday to have the T-belt done and while there I am having them do the EGR block off with a Kerma Tune. I get the sound in the vidoe above the turbo at 46.5 seconds right now. phonetically spelled like, Vvvvvt. (I feel stupid typing that!) :eek:

I'm sure hoping that will take care of my problem or else I am in the same boat that you are in! Save the selling of my car, I love this thing.

Just think, when you replace the whole thing then you KNOW that it is all in tip top shape! Keep up the fight, I sold my last Tdi and had to drive a gasser for 18 months or so and cursed it every time I filled up! Loving my TDI!

Innocent or Guilty!?
 
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Rattler05.5

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Any idea if your EGR is working correctly? From talking with my local mechanic he said that the EGR works with the valve on the cooler and the Anti shudder valve to draw more exhaust gas into the combustion chamber, ie the ASV closes partially to allow the vacuum of the intake stroke to draw in the exhaust.

Maybe you have something wrong there, If the EGR, ASV, and whatever valve on the cooler aren't opening/closing correctly then it would make the transition jerky. If it's not one of those things then it only leaves the turbo side of things. Is the turbo actuator electronic on our cars? There isn't a N75 that relies on vacuum to open the turbo vanes is there? Maybe you could upgrade to a 17/22 to try to solve the problem! Kind of like my "Honey, now we 'need' a tune to take away the check engine light" Followed with "Well, now we 'need' a boost gauge to make sure I don't blow the turbo with this new tune!"

I'm not going to be much help to you, but I can brain storm with the best of em! ....and bump you to the top of the list!
 

kooyajerms

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Location
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97 B4V (mine), 11 x5 35d (hers) 04 V10 (that one you want), 2014 Q7 (mom's) 74 Shasta 1400
Theres a difference in "car is surging" versus "turbo compressor surge". If you don't know the difference, I'm guessing the car is surging is the answer. Something's not running correctly then. It's not just a slight leak making it screech/sound like that.



This is what happened, it's extreme catastrophic and severe, and I'm not saying this is what will happen to you.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=285806
 

theinternot

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Thanks rattler, much appreciated.

I ran an test in vcds. It said it ran, but never gave me any kind of feedback... I really need to spend some time and learn VCDS.

Can't say for certain that the egr valve is failing, but I think it is supposed to make some sort of clicking noise (or not make a clicking noise... can't remember which) if it's bad?

We do indeed have an N75 valve for the turbo. I would love to upgrade the turbo, but I didn't think there was a plug and play module for the BRM engine... hopefully, I am wrong about that!

Unfortunately, I used my last ""Honey, now we 'need' a tune to take away the check engine light" card when I got new tires, so of course it only made sense for rims, too, right? :D

The verdict is in... but, I don't know what it was cuz I never got called onto a jury. My yearly civic wasting of a day has been fulfilled.

Any idea if your EGR is working correctly? From talking with my local mechanic he said that the EGR works with the valve on the cooler and the Anti shudder valve to draw more exhaust gas into the combustion chamber, ie the ASV closes partially to allow the vacuum of the intake stroke to draw in the exhaust.

Maybe you have something wrong there, If the EGR, ASV, and whatever valve on the cooler aren't opening/closing correctly then it would make the transition jerky. If it's not one of those things then it only leaves the turbo side of things. Is the turbo actuator electronic on our cars? There isn't a N75 that relies on vacuum to open the turbo vanes is there? Maybe you could upgrade to a 17/22 to try to solve the problem! Kind of like my "Honey, now we 'need' a tune to take away the check engine light" Followed with "Well, now we 'need' a boost gauge to make sure I don't blow the turbo with this new tune!"

I'm not going to be much help to you, but I can brain storm with the best of em! ....and bump you to the top of the list!
 
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theinternot

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Maybe surging is not the right word... turbo compressor surge results in turbo "farts" or "burps" (I have heard both these terms used interchangeably) correct?

Best way to describe it is that it feels like engine is being overpowered and shakes during boost (after delayed onset of boost). Also, I have been noticing that when I am idling and barely blip the throttle the engine will start to stumble... happens 3 out of 5 times in row.

I will read that surging thread you posted a bit later on this evening.

Theres a difference in "car is surging" versus "turbo compressor surge". If you don't know the difference, I'm guessing the car is surging is the answer. Something's not running correctly then. It's not just a slight leak making it screech/sound like that.



This is what happened, it's extreme catastrophic and severe, and I'm not saying this is what will happen to you.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=285806
 
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VeeDubTDI

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Turbo sounds pretty normal to me in the videos... although you might have a small boost leak or exhaust leak from the sounds of it.

VCDS logs look good, too. Turbo responds quickly and doesn't overshoot severely. Green line is requested boost, yellow line is actual boost.

Definitely not something I'd sell the car over.
 

theinternot

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Thank you for looking at that and responding!

That makes me feel a bit better about the boost response. I just keep thinking this car is never gonna run right. My mileage took a major dump this tankful... but don't know if that is from running the a/c full blast the past couple of days.

I am gonna mess around with it some more this weekend.

Turbo sounds pretty normal to me in the videos... although you might have a small boost leak or exhaust leak from the sounds of it.

VCDS logs look good, too. Turbo responds quickly and doesn't overshoot severely. Green line is requested boost, yellow line is actual boost.

Definitely not something I'd sell the car over.
 

theinternot

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greengeeker

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VCDS logs look good, too. Turbo responds quickly and doesn't overshoot severely. Green line is requested boost, yellow line is actual boost.
I disagree. The correction after it overshoots is very abrupt (very high dP/dt). I'm more accustomed to a slower response in boost regulation which leads me to believe it has help bleeding off pressure.

OP can you do a log of groups 1,3,11? 4th gear WOT pull 1800-redline (cop-free road will help;)). If you haven't figure it out, the logs go to the folder where you installed vcds and will be places in a 'logs' folder.
 

VeeDubTDI

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Well that would support the boost/exhaust leak theory, wouldn't it? :)
 

CoolAirVw

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crack in the accordion tubes that pipe exhaust to the EGR or a failing turbo.

Since you say it comes and goes its probably a failing turbo. Better stop driving it before your motor "splodes", as someone said.
 
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theinternot

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I will do first thing tomorrow and post the logs.

Seems to corroborate my sudden "surge" in boost that comes on around 2500 rpm.

I disagree. The correction after it overshoots is very abrupt (very high dP/dt). I'm more accustomed to a slower response in boost regulation which leads me to believe it has help bleeding off pressure.

OP can you do a log of groups 1,3,11? 4th gear WOT pull 1800-redline (cop-free road will help;)). If you haven't figure it out, the logs go to the folder where you installed vcds and will be places in a 'logs' folder.
 
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theinternot

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I will check the accordion tubes. I should have been paying more attention to that when I replaced the egr cooler. I did put new gaskets and a seal at least.

I am wondering about two things:

1. Could a loose connection between the turbo exhaust and the downpipe be causing a vibration inside the downpipe that is getting reverberated through the car internally, and that is why I don't hear the same noise from the outside?

2. I can't get a smoke machine, but was wondering if blocking off the exhaust pipe and forcing compressed air inside it would yield the same type of air leak noise that doing a boost leak test would create? If I could get a smoke machine I think that would answer things pretty quickly.

As far as the engine "sploding" goes... would my insurance cover this? maybe I won't fix it... ;). I wouldn't say it comes and goes... just me jumping the gun to say it was fixed... I seem to be doing that a lot lately. It is constantly there on every upshift.... just varies depending on how hard I hit the go pedal.

crack in the accordion tubes that pipe exhaust to the EGR or a failing turbo.

Since you say it comes and goes its probably a failing turbo. Better stop driving it before your motor "splodes", as someone said.
 

kooyajerms

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That's considered wear and tear/maintenance issues from when I asked my adjuster, but you can always ask. It's not gonna happen though. I would have loved for my insurance to cover my engine runaway and transmission chunk.
 

greengeeker

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1. Could a loose connection between the turbo exhaust and the downpipe be causing a vibration inside the downpipe that is getting reverberated through the car internally, and that is why I don't hear the same noise from the outside?
High frequency noise is very directional and is also easily absorbed by the pads on your firewall and hood. The fact that your source is right on the back of the engine will reflect the pressure off the block and add to your original wave which can possibly double your noise (keep in mind doubling of noise only means a 3dB increase ;)).
 

theinternot

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I didn't think so... honestly, I don't want the hassle of going through an insurance claim, or the process of buying/selling cars at all right now.

Gonna give it another go tomorrow and really focus in on the exhaust side of things, check manifold bolts, etc... if that doesn't reveal it then I have an idea to get real creative with my video cam... gonna get it inside the engine bay and behind the block by affixing somewhere behind the subframe in the gap next to the downpipe. Now, the only thing left to do is figure out how to keep it from melting:eek:



That's considered wear and tear/maintenance issues from when I asked my adjuster, but you can always ask. It's not gonna happen though. I would have loved for my insurance to cover my engine runaway and transmission chunk.
 

theinternot

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I am always amazed at how many different sounds you can isolate just by moving your head around the engine. Wish this one was easier to pinpoint.

Have you used any of those amplifying headsets to find leaks/noises?

I saw a video on youtube of some guy's using it... (given the audio on youtube is highly compressed and artifacted* this even a word? ;-)... I couldn't hear the exhaust leak they were looking for, but the amplifier headset picked it right up... was pretty sweet. I will post the link if I can find it again.

High frequency noise is very directional and is also easily absorbed by the pads on your firewall and hood. The fact that your source is right on the back of the engine will reflect the pressure off the block and add to your original wave which can possibly double your noise (keep in mind doubling of noise only means a 3dB increase ;)).
 

Rattler05.5

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How is the hunting going?

I picked up my car last night and the burst of power at ~2600RPM is slightly better. But the tune and increase in fun has me distracted at this point! The mechanic said that the burst will be there until I replace the cooler. Lame!

Good luck today, let us know what you find!
 
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