BOSCH BD TESTING RESULTS......no good

BOSCH TESTS

Of course all of this may mean they got a bad batch, but still, no good.

cool, interesting material and it's good to know they're actively persuing solutions!

WELL i have to jump in on this one, although this is the first result of bio testing by BOSCH, I now feel vindacated by what I was saying all along, something was killing inj pumps, Now the U.S. Biodiesel industry needs to step it up and work with Bosch to Standerdize Biodiesel fuel requirements, when this happens then will the mfg(VWOA) will endourse bio for U.S. now I have something to show my cust who are using bio to back up their inj. pump failures, mabie we need to start farming rapseed to help save the midwest farming ,

Actually it's not the first report from Bosch. The first one contained terrifying pictures of the inside of an injection pump after running a lot of bio. Of course, they also say that they were using bio with an extremely high glycerine content. This study is more of the same, it is not bio that is the problem, but quality bio. Quality, Quality, Quality. That is the issue. They even refer to running a test fleet with sub standard fuel to see what will happen! I think we know what will happen and the poor effects will be (and show up as being) proportional to the quality of the fuel used in the study.

There is nothing in this report that damns biodiesel. Further, if people are willing to take the time, you will find several psotings by me on the test results of my own fuel. There you will find that my fuel beat all of the stndards inlcuding corrosion. I have fuel samples in my garage that are over 3 years old and are still good to go (crystal clear). Quality, Quality, Quality.

Anyone want to take a stab at translating this for me...I may not be the brightest bulb in the set but...

1. What is oxidation stability and why is it relevant? Is this related to the sludge that was observed? How does reconcile this with the oft reported solvent qualities of Bio?
2. Why should a blend specification be required for a fuel quality standard? Isn't the blend concern more relevant to temps the fuel would be exposed to?
3. Can anyone figure out what was the process used to test the fuels in slide 6? What was the engine used? How were other variables controlled?

In general, I don't know what to make of this study. Hard to argue with Bosch and yet the information provided in the slide show seems incomplete somehow. While it has no doubt been edited for presentation I am left with more questions than answers. I guess my chief concern is that a number of other studies have been conducted and have not found these results (I am thinking of BioBus project in Montreal and the USask study as two relevant Canadian studies)...

Thoughts?

Maybe it's just me, but the Bosch presentation seemed just a little too vague. I'd like to see a more scientific report as the how the tests were conducted, etc. It looked like they just let parts soak in BD for weeks and then noted the results. Don't think too many of our cars go unused for months at a time. Also, was an identical test performed with petro diesel?

Anyone know if Bosch owns a part of VW or vice a versa?

No BOSCH is a seprate corp. I may add it supplys fuel and eletrical items around the world and other auto MFG. also about the report, something is better than nothing, ITS just something you didnt want to see or hear, But its a start, And its only about controled quality of product, Remember when unleadded fuel first came out? their was a big stink about that to, also when syntec oil first came out, Its the unknowen factor on this subject now to.

BOSCH TESTS

Of course all of this may mean they got a bad batch, but still, no good.

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It is a shame that they didn't run a 3rd test using RME (European Biodiesel).

So this report says bad fuel is bad right? It seemed like they singled out poor quality BD mostly and soy based BD partly to ultimately suggest we needed good standards.

Robert:

It not something I didn't want to hear. I would, however, like facts to back up their position. A 7 page powerpoint presentation, without showing the methodology and comparison testing, makes me just a little suspicious.

I like to make informed decisions and the Bosch statement didn't give me enough info to determine if their conclusions were valid or the product of inadequate or incomplete scientific testing. Or was it based on just a batch or two of bad BD?

It's good to know that someone is looking at NA bioD. Maybe more detailed research will provide the answers.

If soy-based bio is bad, then I believe a whole bunch of people would like to know that info. Likewise, if it is only a small percentage of mfgs. with poor bioD production, then the whole bioD industry should not be condemned.

"Actually it's not the first report from Bosch. The first one contained terrifying pictures of the inside of an injection pump after running a lot of bio. Of course, they also say that they were using bio with an extremely high glycerine content. This study is more of the same, it is not bio that is the problem, but quality bio. Quality, Quality, Quality. That is the issue. They even refer to running a test fleet with sub standard fuel to see what will happen! I think we know what will happen and the poor effects will be (and show up as being) proportional to the quality of the fuel used in the study."

Ditto.

And lest we forget, the previous study also showed three times the number of failed FIP's using PETRO DIESEL.
So are we to conclude that pd causes fip failures and therefore be avoided?

Hey, I would LOVE to see them do a run of offspec fuel on a fleet. I didnt' read the study as saying that they were going to do this, though, just that they thought it would be a good idea (which I think too, it's just potentially expensive to run such a test).

Can anyone take the time to track down the original data that they based this presentation on? It might require calling or emailing them.

by the way do you have a link to the first Bosch report you were describing?

Mark

If Bosch wants some real world test data I`ve got two IP each with over 50K B85/B100 that I`d be more than happy to have them tear down and analyze. How many of you out there would offer the same?

Robert, I for one, have no aversion to supposedly bad news regarding this issue. I`m all ears. When someone has some definitive information about good quality B100 trashing anything, bring it forth.

Equipment manufacturers are scared of the coming flood of biodiesel legislation as we saw in the EU (where is mandated in many countries and makes up nearly a Billion gallons of consumption). And they want better quality as we all do. What I don't like is the unscientific nature of what I see here. For all we know they took twenty samples before they stumbled upon the Amoco station in Chelsea, MI with a glycerin problem. Here is a shocker...glycerin will do bad things to your engine!

Manufacturers around the world have adopted biodiesel blends and some are adopting B100 into their warrantee programs. Why? Because citizens in many states like me woke up one day in the not so distant past and found that gasoline at the pumps was replaced by a 10% ethanol blend! (This in my opinion caused the failure of a fuel pump on my fathers Chevy Blazer.) With one stroke of the legislative pen you could all be driving on bio-blends as our gas-guzzling friends do. So manufactures know this is going to come and it is going to cost them money in terms of warrantee issues if quality issues are not addressed. The industry needs to tighten quality measures if it wants quicker warrantee coverage from manufacturers like Bosch. But the regardless of manufacturers concerns, biodiesel is going to become a much larger part of diesel fuel in America. Through capitulation or legislation, it is on its way.

Also, for those of you who think your TDI was not designed with biodiesel in mind you need to go to VW's German site and educate yourself. In Germany VW covers B100 and any low percentage blend under warranty.

http://www.volkswagen-environment.de/buster/buster.asp?i=_content/praxis_92.asp

WELL i have to jump in on this one, although this is the first result of bio testing by BOSCH, I now feel vindacated by what I was saying all along, something was killing inj pumps, Now the U.S. Biodiesel industry needs to step it up and work with Bosch to Standerdize Biodiesel fuel requirements, when this happens then will the mfg(VWOA) will endourse bio for U.S. now I have something to show my cust who are using bio to back up their inj. pump failures, mabie we need to start farming rapseed to help save the midwest farming ,

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Unfortunately, this tidbit of info from Bosch is so scanty and has some obvious flaws in it that it does more to raise suspicion than to prove a point. It only seems to verify anything to those who are already claiming that the sky is falling.
Where did Bosch get 51 Cetane diesel? Certainly not anywhere I buy fuel, and not at any refinery near me where I have served as a vendor. Fuel from the 3 refinerys near me consistently tests at or slightly below 40 Cetane, meaning adding bio will raise Cetane, not lower it.
Without question, a more exacting and thorough standard than the current ASTM D6751 needs to be formulated. I think we all knew that before Bosch created a .pdf.
If this is vindication, Robert, don't use #2 diesel in PD engines. Failures have been observed. What will power those PDs now?
It is unfortunate that Bosch decided to publish such an incomplete and skewed document. It now has me suspect that info from them will be biased to fit their own agenda, instead of empirical data.

Actually it's not the first report from Bosch. The first one contained terrifying pictures of the inside of an injection pump after running a lot of bio. Of course, they also say that they were using bio with an extremely high glycerine content. This study is more of the same, it is not bio that is the problem, but quality bio. Quality, Quality, Quality. That is the issue. They even refer to running a test fleet with sub standard fuel to see what will happen! I think we know what will happen and the poor effects will be (and show up as being) proportional to the quality of the fuel used in the study

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Why is it that companies don't run tests with substandard diesel or gasoline, and from the bad results claim that diesel and gasoline are bad? But of course, such a test and conclusion is perfectly fine with biodiesel....

There are some serious flaws in that report - they can't even get some of the basic science right. For example, on slide 2, they claim that as the percent of double bonds increases (the oil is less saturated), cold flow properties are negatively effected. No, it's actually the complete opposite. See this thread over at biodieselnow. Methyl linolenate, for example, has three double bonds (18:3), and a freezing point of -70.6 F. The fully saturated C18 biodiesel molecule, methyl stearate (18:0), has no double bonds, and a freezing point of 102.4F. Yet, Bosch is claiming that biodiesel with more double bonds has worse cold flow properties? Uh-huh....

On the same page, they claim that increasing double bonds decreases oxidation stability. No, actually it has nothing to do with oxidation stability. The stability against polymerization or peroxidation increases, but oxidation must happen first - and is not affected by the number of double bonds. In study after study, well made biodiesel that retained the natural vitamin E was MORE stable than most diesel fuel.

On the previous page, they claim that the existing ASTM spec is insufficient to protect the consumer, since it does not include an oxidation stability test. Neither does ASTM D 975, the diesel spec - why aren't they complaining about that?

When they have that many mistakes on the basic science in just the first two pages, one has to ask - what is their agenda?

All of the "characteristics" they describe on slide 3 are traits of bad quality biodiesel - well beyond the ASTM spec. Of course, that doesn't stop them from claiming these are reasons to be wary of ALL biodiesel.

One also has to wonder - why is it that all of the tests done by independent groups (university research programs, government agencies, fleets themselves, etc.) find none of the problems that "studies" done by Bosch and VW report?

For example, Bosch's presentation is claiming that in studies where they used B20 for only 4 weeks, the result was a sludge coating most components, o-ring swelling, and zinc coating deterioration. Yet, studies where even B100 was used for years (in many cases 10+ years) showed NONE of those problems. Consider for example Yellowstone national Park's use of B100 year-round (with a fuel tank heater) in a 1995 Dodge pickup truck since new, with now over 200,000 miles on it, and no problems (the periodic inspections showed far less than normal wear).

Does it not seem a bit odd that the company(ies) that make the vehicles, and would have something to gain by being able to claim biodiesel is bad and will void your warranty, are finding far moreproblems with far less use (i.e. 4 weeks versus many years at much higher blends) than independent studies?

There is nothing in this report that damns biodiesel. Further, if people are willing to take the time, you will find several psotings by me on the test results of my own fuel. There you will find that my fuel beat all of the stndards inlcuding corrosion. I have fuel samples in my garage that are over 3 years old and are still good to go (crystal clear). Quality, Quality, Quality.

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No no no, if ANY biodiesel can be claimed to be damaging in a test done by Bosch, ALL biodiesel must be bad. Right?

So this report says bad fuel is bad right? It seemed like they singled out poor quality BD mostly and soy based BD partly to ultimately suggest we needed good standards.

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This is basically the approach companies have been using to try to argue that biodiesel is bad - hoping people won't notice or care that they specifically only tested bad quality biodiesel. See the VW/Bosch report that SkyPup and Autodiesel are always posting. The scary photos are all from extremely waterlogged fuel or high glycerin fuel (the mention of which they bury in a small caption under the photo) - but that doesn't stop them from claiming those problems are symptomatic of all biodiesel.

If Bosch wants some real world test data I`ve got two IP each with over 50K B85/B100 that I`d be more than happy to have them tear down and analyze. How many of you out there would offer the same?

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I offer our 2000 Golf IP with over 66,000 miles on B100 (the only fuel this car has seen since new) for some real world test data.

Par for the course, I'm afraid, when it comes to documents from Robert Bosch Corp. But consider this as an upside (mentioned above too) their first slide, stating reasons to do this study, is becasue bio is already being mandated around the world and soon in the US. Therefore, they see the writing on the wall, bio is here to stay and its use will only grow, so obviously how do we deal with it, is there point. how do they deal with the potentially downsides to poor quality control in manufacturing, delivery, and storage on our equipment? That, it seems to me, is what they after here (trying to give the benefit of the doubt) not dismissing bio. Notice, there is nothing in there explicitly about how bio killed a pump or every one using bosch equipment (in other words every diesel owner on this continent) should stay away from bio.

NHMike thank you for the REAL science here.

And I too would gladly offer up my passats IP with over 50K of B100 use - as long as they install a new pump/TB/water pump, acc belt, tensioner when they take my pump

I swear all this [censored] is a conspiracy by the Petroleum Industry to get us to not use BioDiesel ..................

Until Biodiesel is standardized, it can't be mass produced and sold at stations with success, for both the company and customers.

I wish we'd just standardized it.... they have a standard in Europe, right?

If Bosch wants some real world test data I`ve got two IP each with over 50K B85/B100 that I`d be more than happy to have them tear down and analyze. How many of you out there would offer the same?

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I offer our 2000 Golf IP with over 66,000 miles on B100 (the only fuel this car has seen since new) for some real world test data.

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But, how can that be possible? Bosch says that with just 4 weeks of use of B20, the pumps should be clogged with gunk. Surely they must be right, and you're delusional about your car running on B100, right?

Until Biodiesel is standardized, it can't be mass produced and sold at stations with success, for both the company and customers.

I wish we'd just standardized it.... they have a standard in Europe, right?

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There is a standard in the US - ASTM D 6751, which has essentially the same operational parameters/specs as the US diesel spec (D 975). The main difficulty is getting requirements for all producers to continually verify that their fuel meets that spec. Right now, it is a purely voluntary thing for them to test their fuel for ASTM compliance (the National Biodiesel Board has a new voluntary program called BQ9000 (like ISO 9000), which companies can participate in, doing continual testing for ASTM compliance to get BQ 9000 certification).

Making it a requirement to meet ASTM D 6751 is what we need to do - Bosch claiming that because bad quality fuel can cause problems, ALL biodiesel should be avoided, doesn't help though (and that's what they've done, at least in the past).

Until Biodiesel is standardized, it can't be mass produced and sold at stations with success, for both the company and customers.

I wish we'd just standardized it.... they have a standard in Europe, right?

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There is a standard in the US - ASTM D 6751, which has essentially the same operational parameters/specs as the US diesel spec (D 975). The main difficulty is getting requirements for all producers to continually verify that their fuel meets that spec. Right now, it is a purely voluntary thing for them to test their fuel for ASTM compliance (the National Biodiesel Board has a new voluntary program called BQ9000 (like ISO 9000), which companies can participate in, doing continual testing for ASTM compliance to get BQ 9000 certification).

Making it a requirement to meet ASTM D 6751 is what we need to do - Bosch claiming that because bad quality fuel can cause problems, ALL biodiesel should be avoided, doesn't help though (and that's what they've done, at least in the past).

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I would avoid it like the plague unless I knew that every single fuel up I took was up to standard. That would mean filling up a drum with biodiesel and testing it.

That's me. Then again, I don't have the money or the knowlege the replace much of the stuff that you guys do, so.. i'm in a bit of a different situation.

If I was older, had a steady job, I suppose I would run biodiesel, with the added risk of problems. It just sucks that they don't require it to be up to standard. bleh.

I swear all this [censored] is a conspiracy by the Petroleum Industry to get us to not use BioDiesel

..................

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There is some conjecture that you are very close to the truth. (the Scully handle seems humorous right now)
Perto execs see bio as a competitor, even tho those of us who've bothered to look know that it can only be a small percentage of total use.
Petro bean-counters look at a single percentage point as a loss of revenue.
I think smart marketing refers to bio use as an "additive" making it seem as tho it will help sales, not detract from them.
If you happen to add B100, mo' power to ya!

"It just sucks that they don't require it to be up to standard. bleh. "

Just curious. Do you do the same test for the petrodiesel I assume you put in your TDI?

And I'm sure you're aware it doesn't meet the TDI's cetane requirement.

If I was older, had a steady job, I suppose I would run biodiesel, with the added risk of problems. It just sucks that they don't require it to be up to standard. bleh.

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You are somewhat protected though. Since they have to sign an NBB form saying that they will only produce ASTM quality fuel, if you buy their fuel, and have a problem due to it being below quality - they ARE liable.

It's interesting, because I've read about fleets (such as school busses) that have seen reduced maintenance (including fuel injection pumps) when running biodiesel. They are usually running B20.

It's interesting, because I've read about fleets (such as school busses) that have seen reduced maintenance (including fuel injection pumps) when running biodiesel. They are usually running B20.

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Surely they must all be delusional - after all, Bosch says it should cause massive problems in just 4 weeks of use. Surely Bosch must be correct, and the dozens, perhaps hundreds of fleets using B20 or higher must all be wrong, right?