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Go Back   TDIClub Forums > VW TDI Discussion Areas > Alternative Diesel Fuels (Biodiesel, WVO, SVO, BTL, GTL etc)

Alternative Diesel Fuels (Biodiesel, WVO, SVO, BTL, GTL etc) Discussions about alternative fuels for use in our TDI's. This includes biodiesel WVO (Waste Vegetable Oil), SVO (Straight Vegetable Oil), BTL (Biomass to Liquid), GTL (Gas to Liquids) etc. Please note the Fuel Disclaimer.

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Old November 30th, 2004, 15:42   #1
ybiofuels
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Default Injection Pump Leak in \'01 Beetle???

Hi everyone,

Well, I need the advice of the collective once again. One of my customers has a 2001 beetle that apparently has developed a fuel injection pump seal leak. It has 60,000 miles, only 10,000 of which have been on biodiesel. All the biodiesel has been ASTM spec. Assuming she ran the whole 10k miles on B100, of which I am not certain, what gives?

I am a biodiesel expert, but not a VW expert. I can definitely vouch for the quality of biodiesel in this case. I have dozens of other customers with the exact same fuel injection pump who have driven much further on the same biodiesel without problems, including myself (30,000 miles on the same fuel). I am aware of the '96 Passat pump problems. I am not aware of any others.

I have instructed the customer to fill the tank with petro diesel, and bring it to the dealership without mentioning biodiesel. A 2nd opinion seems warranted. She'll just get a diagnosis.

I haven't seen this car, so this is all secondhand. I think I've mentioned everything. Ring a bell for anyone?
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Old December 1st, 2004, 04:53   #2
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Default Injection Pump Leak in \'01 Beetle???

Seals leak sometimes. There have been several people posting here that have had seal leaks using regular diesel as well. I think there were 2 different warranties offered in 2001... one was 5yrs/60k, the other was 10yrs/100k. If the problem is with the injector pump, and the car is out of warranty, your customer would be better off finding a Bosch shop to do the work. If it's just the top seal, anyone proficient with a wrench can remove the top plate(with the special tool) and replace the seal.

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Old December 1st, 2004, 06:35   #3
BioDiesel
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Default Injection Pump Leak in \'01 Beetle???

"...What gives..?

Nothing new, the petro diesel shrank the seals. Just one of the hazards of running petro diesel in a TDI. Too bad she didn't switch to B100 earlier.

You might try posting this in the A4 MAint. Forum, but I think you've already done that for another leaker.

If it's not under warranty, my fip leak repair how-to is at
the page in my sig. at the bottom. Search for LEAK!
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Old December 1st, 2004, 08:25   #4
ybiofuels
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Default Injection Pump Leak in \'01 Beetle???

Hmmm. You must mean this:

Quote:
LEAK! Just discovered my fuel pump is leaking wvo at the top cover. Damn. I'll attempt to seal it with a new seal made of Viton. Update. Security bolt socket on order from www.metalnerd.com., as is a new top cover gasket from Bosch. Since many other BOSCH FIP's have failed the same way running on petro diesel, this may not be bd or wvo related. Once I see the gasket, I'll know more.


July 28th: Replaced another gasket in the fip. This one is where the main body joins the housing that contains the fuel shutoff solenoid and the 4 injector ports. It's a std O-ring, but was now a "D"-ring. It was flattened where it contacted the cylinder pump wall. I just removed the connector bracket and the bracket at he bottom that holds the timing adjustment screw on the right side of the fip ( as you face it from the front of the car). IWhile the pump is not leaking there are 6 other O-rings in the gasket kit, so they are probably shrunk too. You'll need a #25 or #27 Torx bit. Preferably mounted in a socket. And a 5 or 6mm hex bit, also mounted in a socket. Mark all positions of the bolts as you remove them as they are different lengths. Pull the housing out and it will slide off a shaft inside the fip. This shaft has a collar on it. The collar has a detent that holds a thin rod that descends from the top of the pump. Make sure that the rod is in the detent when re-assembling. I'll post pictures too. The top cover area has a gummy film that wouldn't come off easy with carburator cleaner. The cyclinder was clean w/o any corrosion or deposits. Cleanliness is important. I sprayed all parts off with carburator cleaner before re-assembly. The BOSCH gasket kit is p/n 2467-010-003. Try your local BOSCH service center. I ordered mine from H.G. Makelim Co. in Sanfrancisco CA. 650-873-4757. They're very helpfull and know what they're doing, unlike my local BOSCH shop. I'm running it on bd for the next 2 months. I have a new gasket soaking in a jar of wvo, to see if it shrinks. The car is running fine. Because I didn't move the main body, it doesn't need to be retimed.


Sept. 2 - Experiencing occaisional power dips above 3,000 rpm. Replaced fuel filter, air filter and cleaned snow screen and MAF. The fuel filter had a little sediment and white flakes in the water trap, but NO water. The air filter was dirty. Both filters had 20k miles. Cleaned the MAF with aerosol electonics cleaner from Radio-Shack. Flushed out some soot. Result: Hooray! Power is restored! Top speed of 95 m.p.h. That's better.


Oct. 9 - No more problems with the fuel pump. The gasket half submerged in wvo has also not shrunk, so I believe the original gasket shrinking was not due to wvo use.
Thanks! Question: If injection pumps are so easy to repair with such cheap parts, then why the hell won't a mechanic ever do this? Is is because they are instructed to simply replace the pump? Seems like a scam to me.
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Old December 1st, 2004, 19:04   #5
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Default Injection Pump Leak in \'01 Beetle???

Quote:

Thanks! Question: If injection pumps are so easy to repair with such cheap parts, then why the hell won't a mechanic ever do this? Is is because they are instructed to simply replace the pump? Seems like a scam to me.
It's not a scam... but.... VW sources the pumps from Bosch. VW mechanics aren't trained to fix Bosch pumps(among the 1,000,000 other things they're not trained to do) So, I bet when they get a failed pump, VW just sends it off to Bosch and Bosch pays them for it.(during warranty) When it's out of warranty, the techs still don't know what to do, except replace the pump. Only this time, YOU'RE paying for it.

Yeay, global marketplace!

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Old December 1st, 2004, 22:20   #6
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Default Injection Pump Leak in \'01 Beetle???

The injection pump in my 2003 Jetta TDI started leaking at 50,000 and I have never used Biodiesel. It was fixed under warranty.
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Old December 2nd, 2004, 06:26   #7
BioDiesel
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Default Injection Pump Leak in \'01 Beetle???

Hi Kumar,

I don't think it's a scam, because most likely other seals will be in as bad shape. For. for me, none other than the 2 I replaced have leaked since, but one other poster had to pull out the fip and replace 3 seals. At that point you're
better off sending it out for a rebuild from a prof. mechanic.

OTOH, the BOSCH repair shop nearby told me that a simple top cover gasket replacement wouldn't work, because 'lots and lot's of them have had warped covers and wouldn't seal even after they were planed down. Turned out to be a load of B.S.!!! That was definately an attempted scam.

If it's leaking from the top cover, try a simple gasket replacement. If it's the seal at the drive pulley, or 2 seals, time for a rebuild. If trhe seal at the distributor is leaking it can be dissasmbled and replaced in about 2 hours. But it took me 4 - 5 for research, etc...

The A3 Maint. Forum listed the cheapest fip rebld as $850, iirc, from some place in Oregon.
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Old December 2nd, 2004, 10:58   #8
ybiofuels
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Default Re: Injection Pump Leak in \'01 Beetle???

You all are incredible. I post at a lot of forums, but this one takes the cake as far as 'information resource' is concerned.
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Old February 28th, 2005, 16:01   #9
BioDiesel
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Default Re: Injection Pump Leak in \'01 Beetle???

Another poster developed a leak in his BOSCH-like fip shortly after conversion to wvo. Here is a link that at the end describes a swelling then shrinking phenomenon due to usage of low-sulpher fuels. ( Bio and wvo would be low sulpher ).
http://www.med.govt.nz/ers/oil_pet/l...iesel/handout/
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Old March 2nd, 2005, 07:17   #10
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Default Re: Injection Pump Leak in \'01 Beetle???

Quote:
Another poster developed a leak in his BOSCH-like fip shortly after conversion to wvo. Here is a link that at the end describes a swelling then shrinking phenomenon due to usage of low-sulpher fuels. ( Bio and wvo would be low sulpher ).
http://www.med.govt.nz/ers/oil_pet/l...iesel/handout/
What's bad though is that this has been known about since about 1993, when ULSD was first being introduced in EUrope. Most companies switched to viton or Therban (hydrogenated nitrile) rubber then - for example, our fuel lines in the VWs are Therban. Bosch keeps complaining that biodiesel will damage their seals. Since biodiesel and ULSD have roughly the same materials compatibilities, that would only be possible if they are using a type of elastomer that's incompatible with biodiesel, and therefore also incompatible with ULSD. If that's the case, they'll be having a LOT of failing pumps soon, as ULSD is mandated essentially worldwide (well, at least in the two biggest markets - Europe and the US). I find it difficult believing that the Bosch engineers could be that stupid. I think it's more likely that the lawyers and managers are just claiming that biodiesel will cause the seals to fail, as a way to get out of any warranty complaints that are actually due to faulty design or workmanship.
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Old March 2nd, 2005, 17:22   #11
BioDiesel
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Default Re: Injection Pump Leak in \'01 Beetle???

"I find it difficult believing that the Bosch engineers could be that stupid."
My trucker brother-in-law told me the story what happened when they introduced lower sulphur diesel in the ( 70's , 80's ?). Many truckers' engines developed fuel leaks. It seems there wasn't much testing done before the fuel was rolled out.

If BOSCH designed for ULSD, they may not have been able to
design for regular diesel too. And going from HSD to ULSD may not have been a senario they forsaw. I think they
probably design for the European market only. And I'm not talking about about public pronouncements, but what the engineer selecting the seal material is thinking ....


My fip leaked within a couple weeks of switching to wvo.
But it had run B100 for 20 k miles prior w/o a problem.
Assuming the 'drop in aromatics/sulphur' theory from the link, this would indicate that wvo is 'less aromatic' than biodiesel. My seals were shrunk, and I think thats consistant with the swell/shrink theory in the link.

But the whole problem is clouded because many B100 users never leak and most begin life on dzl. And many dzl-only users have also developed leaks.
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Old March 2nd, 2005, 18:48   #12
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Default Re: Injection Pump Leak in \'01 Beetle???

OH OH HEAR WE GO AGAIN!!!!!!
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Old March 3rd, 2005, 05:17   #13
BioDiesel
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Default Re: Injection Pump Leak in \'01 Beetle???

from the link: " This reduction in aromatic content could affect some seals."


Robert,
Glad you're still here. Do you know if the Maui fips were replaced primarily due to leaks? Is ULSD diesel used on Maui? Is ULSD coming to Maui? If so you'll be a very busy man.

I'm just speculating, but it occurs to me that the two areas that are reporting fip leaks with biodiesel are Maui and Kumar's YBiofuels customers in N.Calif. Both make their bd from wvo.

It would be nice if a benign aromatic could be added to the bd or ULSD to keep them from shrinking. Perhaps the fuel industry is already working on one.

Till then, I wonder what would happen if the next leaking fip were to return to HSD? Maybe the gasket would re-swell and stop leaking?
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Old March 3rd, 2005, 09:39   #14
vwrobert51
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Default Re: Injection Pump Leak in \'01 Beetle???

well as far as maui and oahu, most of the biodiseal is bought from pacific bio, on maui and oahum unknowen how much home brew is hear, and pac bio has a perty good setup, but i will look into ULSD, fyi out here in pacfic we are not as strick about emmisions or should I say its not enforced, so anything goes, I havent seen any more leaking pumps lately, but when I get one I will post it, also I am going to VW tdi trainning this month and I will have lots of questions to solve from VOA point of view, stay tuned.
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Old March 21st, 2005, 11:31   #15
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Default Re: Injection Pump Leak in \'01 Beetle???

Quote:
I'm just speculating, but it occurs to me that the two areas that are reporting fip leaks with biodiesel are Maui and Kumar's YBiofuels customers in N.Calif. Both make their bd from wvo.
Nope. We don't "make" biodiesel yet (we're building a plant right now), and most of the biodiesel this customer used was soy from Midwest producers.
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