Kerma's Krazy Mod Idea # 38

Kerma\'s Krazy Mod Idea # 38

Ok I've been thinking of somehow rigging an electric fuel pump as kind of a booster pump for the VE pump for quite some time now. Some of the trucks diesels have lift pumps/booster pumps from the factory why wouldn't something similar help our cars run better?

Things I've considered (and actually bought) are a Holley Red pump and a square Purolator fuel pump for a carbeurated gasser. They are sitting on me workbench waiting for some moment with the right flash of inspiration and ambition to make it happen.

Then, another idea occurred to me a few days ago, while reading thru the PeeDee forums...

These PD cars already have an electric "lift pump" installed in the fuel tank- why couldn't this be adapted to work in an older VE pump car?

I'm willing to try it, but need part numbers, plumbing details (are the supply and return lines differnt on the PD cars?) and anything else anyone can think of for potential pitfalls (power supply, wiring etc) There is probably enough "ETKA" part guru-power here to make it happen in a fairly painless way.

Ideas?

Re: Kerma\'s Krazy Mod Idea # 38

It would make it much easier to prime the system after an engine install. I'm intersted and it would be quite easy to do.

Re: Kerma\'s Krazy Mod Idea # 38

I know that there are some IDI guys that have one wired up. VWMS uses a liftpump and pressure regulator on there cars. The easiest way to tell if it is going to make a power difference would be to add a vacuum gauge to the pump inlet. If it pulls big vacuum at high rpm, then it should help. Even if it didn't make a difference power wise I'd bet that the low pressure side of the injection pump would like it. I have a new CIS intank pump waiting to go into my car. I'm still working on a pressure regulator/fuel filter design.

Re: Kerma\'s Krazy Mod Idea # 38

VWMS uses a liftpump and pressure regulator on there cars.

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What pressure do they run? 45lbs,ish?

Re: Kerma\'s Krazy Mod Idea # 38

The PD pre pump makes 15 PSI FWIW.

Re: Kerma\'s Krazy Mod Idea # 38

Should work, and work well, Charlie. Only thing you *might* need to look at is what pressure the timing piston starts to respond at.
eg, if the timing section starts to move at 10psi and you're running 15psi from a supply pump, you'll never achieve minimum advance, I'd think.

I don't think those figures have ever been published here- a couple of years ago I recall "discussing" this with Boundy- something to do with timing vs rpm. The mechanical pumps do what? 30psi at idle, 100psi at full load, but I'm not sure if the TDI has a lighter spring in it or not...

Re: Kerma\'s Krazy Mod Idea # 38

I think tdi-rs uses one on his set up.

Re: Kerma\'s Krazy Mod Idea # 38

Ok I've been thinking of somehow rigging an electric fuel pump as kind of a booster pump for the VE pump for quite some time now. Some of the trucks diesels have lift pumps/booster pumps from the factory why wouldn't something similar help our cars run better?

Click to expand...

this is my next mod, tonight I will get a CIS pump from an older vw car it will be able to push major PSI in the feed pump as I think the 12mm plunger can't get enough fuel from the feed pump. I will also get a pressure gauge to monitor the internal pressure of the injection pump at WOT

Re: Kerma\'s Krazy Mod Idea # 38

and the timing piston is controled by a PWM selenoid so it's only partialy controled by the internal pressure. (in fact a too low pressure at high rpm will not feed enough pressure so the PWM selenoid valve will be maxed out)


but kids, you don't need this with a 10mm pump; this is a mod for the 150+whp team; it's COMPLETELY useless under that level of whp

<u>From my observation, it's only good for setup with 22psi or more with fat nozzles and fat pump.</u>

Also, don't try to monitor the internal pressure with a gauge less than 200psi... I tried a 100psi and we got more pressure than this at idle... the result was full of fuel/veggie oil on the carpet...

Re: Kerma\'s Krazy Mod Idea # 38

Why not try a lift pump from a GMC truck? It is the size of a gm fuel fiter(1\3 vw size) and works fime in my 6.5 liter turbo suburban. It is externally mounted, low pressure and the lines can be had with perfect fit from a autozone or lappens. Super easy to add. I have added these to many other diesels with tremendous success. Try it out!

OOPS 1998 GMC Suburban lift pump. Other years will work, but this is a shoe in.

Re: Kerma\'s Krazy Mod Idea # 38

Seems like there might be another benefit that hasn't been mentioned yet...adding kinetic energy (heat) to the fuel in the tank. A simply little recirc loop, and now you have a built in tank heater for those really cold days.

Just a though.

Keith

Re: Kerma\'s Krazy Mod Idea # 38

Why not use a lift pump from a Dodge Cummins? I hear they are incredibly durable.

(Please, no flaming. This was only a poor attempt at a diesel-related joke. )

Re: Kerma\'s Krazy Mod Idea # 38

Seems like there might be another benefit that hasn't been mentioned yet...adding kinetic energy (heat) to the fuel in the tank. A simply little recirc loop, and now you have a built in tank heater for those really cold days.

Just a though.

Keith

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the 11mm and 12mm pumps are already adding too much heat to the fuel; that's why high power setup needs a fuel cooler

Re: Kerma\'s Krazy Mod Idea # 38

Seems like there might be another benefit that hasn't been mentioned yet...adding kinetic energy (heat) to the fuel in the tank. A simply little recirc loop, and now you have a built in tank heater for those really cold days.

Just a though.

Keith

Click to expand...

the 11mm and 12mm pumps are already adding too much heat to the fuel; that's why high power setup needs a fuel cooler

Click to expand...

Yes but that heat is added after the tank. Not much use if the fuel is already jello IN the tank. (ask me how I know...)

Re: Kerma\'s Krazy Mod Idea # 38

Seems like there might be another benefit that hasn't been mentioned yet...adding kinetic energy (heat) to the fuel in the tank. A simply little recirc loop, and now you have a built in tank heater for those really cold days.

Just a though.

Keith

Click to expand...

the 11mm and 12mm pumps are already adding too much heat to the fuel; that's why high power setup needs a fuel cooler

Click to expand...

Yes but that heat is added after the tank. Not much use if the fuel is already jello IN the tank.

(ask me how I know...)

Click to expand...

you should take the fuel pick-up out of the tank to see how the fuel return heat the fuel pick-up. the setup is good from the factory.

and I won't be the guy who put more than 60psi in the OEM fuel hose and filter. these item are made to work at slightly less than 0 psi. the pump should be between the diesel filter and the injection pump.

Re: Kerma\'s Krazy Mod Idea # 38

Seems like there might be another benefit that hasn't been mentioned yet...adding kinetic energy (heat) to the fuel in the tank. A simply little recirc loop, and now you have a built in tank heater for those really cold days.

Just a though.

Keith

Click to expand...

the 11mm and 12mm pumps are already adding too much heat to the fuel; that's why high power setup needs a fuel cooler

Click to expand...

Yes but that heat is added after the tank. Not much use if the fuel is already jello IN the tank.

(ask me how I know...)

Click to expand...

you should take the fuel pick-up out of the tank to see how the fuel return heat the fuel pick-up. the setup is good from the factory.

and I won't be the guy who put more than 60psi in the OEM fuel hose and filter. these item are made to work at slightly less than 0 psi. the pump should be between the diesel filter and the injection pump.

Click to expand...

It is good once you get the car started.... But I understand your point.

No need for a recirculation loop if, (once you get the engine started), the fuel return is already heating the fuel in the tank.

Re: Kerma\'s Krazy Mod Idea # 38

It is good once you get the car started.... But I understand your point.

No need for a recirculation loop if, (once you get the engine started), the fuel return is already heating the fuel in the tank.

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it's out of topic but people having problem with fuel gelling can wrap the fuel filter with this : http://images.canadiantire.ca/media/imag...50_CC_1e6b9.jpg it's a Kimpex Heat Grip Kit for snowmobile/ATV

you can even heat the fuel filter before starting the car.

Re: Kerma\'s Krazy Mod Idea # 38

I have been thinking of this too, but moreso as a method of keeping the fuel line free of air bubbles (better mileage?), and to make the IP's job easier.

Diesel trucks use them, but more to solve problems of running the main IP "out of fuel" when accelerating too hard and/or consuming more fuel than the IP can supply bu itself.

Re: Kerma\'s Krazy Mod Idea # 38

To be in spec VE Low pressure side should make 3-4 bar at idle and 10-12 bar at max rpm. I'm only planing on suppling the pump with as much fuel as it needs. I don't think suppling the pump with 60psi inlet pressure is good for the pump or is going to gain anything.

Re: Kerma\'s Krazy Mod Idea # 38

Air-free fuel will also improve economy and reduce smoke, as well as improve power.

Re: Kerma\'s Krazy Mod Idea # 38

The dieselstop.com might be a good place to check this out.

There are issues with some of the 7.3L PSD's that is called cackle. It is disputed, but generally accepted that this injection noise/miss is the fault of air in the fuel. To remedy this problem, many of them have added lift pumps. It solves the problems, and does give them better mileage. I bet they would be able to direct us as to which pump to use.

After I installed my CAT2 kit, I noticed air coming through the line a little bit at idle. I wonder how much goes through during heavy acceleration. I suspect that no one will ever know. Kinda hard to see. But I am also not sure if this was happening before the install. I didnt look at it much before I made the mod.

Anyone added a lift pump to a TDI yet?

Re: Kerma\'s Krazy Mod Idea # 38

The reason I suggested the PD lift pump is it might provide the most seamless integration. No fab work, etc., maybe just running some wires or something.

One question is whether the sender is compatible.

Re: Kerma\'s Krazy Mod Idea # 38

Kerma, that sounds like a good idea. I am currently running the Air Dog on my powerstroke for a lift pump/air removel. I did notice less smoke and an increase in power after the install. http://www.ekstamworldwide.com/lighttruck.htm
I might try to install it in the old FMIC location and see what it does for my TDI. Jody

Re: Kerma\'s Krazy Mod Idea # 38

The pd has an electric pump at the tank and also a fuel pump on the vacume pump at the end of the head. That would bolt right up too. I have a low preasure fuelpump in the tank of my car. Car was a A2 GTI, so it was there anyway. I removed the GTI high preasure pump. Its connected to run when the ignition is on. Is a high volume, low preasure pump, not sure of the preasure, i have never measured. But less than 1 bar im sure. I can blead the fuel lines and pump up by turning the ignition on and opening the outlet restricter on the pump. Handy.

Re: Kerma\'s Krazy Mod Idea # 38

Air-free fuel will also improve economy and reduce smoke, as well as improve power.

Click to expand...

I had allways read on the CAT2 post's that air bubbles were OK. On my clear fuel line I get a bubble at idle. I'd love to see what happens at WOT.

I think I want to replace the OEM fuel line to the pump.

Re: Kerma\'s Krazy Mod Idea # 38

Air bubbles are VERY BAD. If they make their way into the high-pressure stage they will implode when compressed. When this happens it can start to cause a cavity in a near by surface. Most of the time this happens in the passageways to the DV's. I have some pics of erosion damage that I'll scan tonight.

I didn't think that the TDI had a problem with air in the lines.

Re: Kerma\'s Krazy Mod Idea # 38

Will we need to worry about foaming when we introduce more pumping pressures?

Re: Kerma\'s Krazy Mod Idea # 38

Turning on my pump has actually reduced some foaming i had.

Re: Kerma\'s Krazy Mod Idea # 38

The dieselstop.com might be a good place to check this out.

There are issues with some of the 7.3L PSD's that is called cackle. It is disputed, but generally accepted that this injection noise/miss is the fault of air in the fuel. To remedy this problem, many of them have added lift pumps. It solves the problems, and does give them better mileage. I bet they would be able to direct us as to which pump to use.

Click to expand...

Most of what I have seen on thedieselstop.com suggests that the “Holley Red pump” – about $100, is the way to go. Others have done just fine with cheaper electric pumps and NAPA has been suggested often – about $35.

After I installed my CAT2 kit, I noticed air coming through the line a little bit at idle.

Click to expand...

Mine does also, but it did with the stock filter too.

Re: Kerma\'s Krazy Mod Idea # 38

I had allways read on the CAT2 post's that air bubbles were OK.

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Ya, thats what the seller of the filter kit said.

But if there are air bubbles in the stock filter, then maybe it aint a problem.