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Old December 1st, 2003, 11:57   #1
TDIMeister
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Default VW rejects hybrids for better combustion engines..

VW rejects hybrids for better combustion engines and fuels to meet emissions targets - report

Source: just-auto.com editorial team
Full article here: http://www.just-auto.com/news_detail.asp?art=42906




According to Automotive News Europe, Volkswagen's Franz-Josef Paefgen said VW isn't developing a hybrid because it doesn't feel its needs the technology, although he admits VW and other car makers may be forced to develop hybrids, if emissions standards that are taking hold in California are adopted elsewhere.

...

VW thinks the development of better combustion engines and cleaner burning fuels are the ways to meet tougher emissions rules.

The European car industry has a voluntary commitment to reduce fleet CO2 emission from a current average of 165 grams per kilometre to 140g/km by 2008.

"But I am afraid that the industry won't meet this target because most of our gains in this respect have been eaten up by heavier car constructions," Paefgen said. "But with the aid of specially designed fuels we will be able to reduce other emissions.

VW's research focuses on optimising the internal combustion engine, with the help of synthetic fuels. "You can design your own fuel so that even existing diesels are 5 to 10% more fuel efficient while simultaneously reducing particulate emission by 50%," he said. "Eventually we will see a single engine type, combining diesel and petrol combustion principles, which will meet stringent emission and consumption goals."

Synthetic fuels can be produced from natural gas, or from biological matter such as plants.

"The supply of natural gas is nearly unlimited," Paefgen said. "And when produced from bio-mass, you have a near-sustainable energy source."

Specially designed fuels improve the combustion process, and can reduce NOx emissions.
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Old December 1st, 2003, 13:51   #2
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Default VW rejects hybrids for better combustion engines..

I don't know how he can say this:

"The supply of natural gas is nearly unlimited," Paefgen said.

The supply is pretty much maxed out in North America at least for the foreseeable future.

http://www.federalreserve.gov/BoardD...10/default.htm

Perhaps it is a different story in Europe and in other overseas markets, but it doesn't look like an economically feasible hope here anytime soon.
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Old December 1st, 2003, 15:48   #3
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Default VW rejects hybrids for better combustion engines..

[ QUOTE ]
"Eventually we will see a single engine type, combining diesel and petrol combustion principles, which will meet stringent emission and consumption goals."

[/ QUOTE ]

A reference to HCCI?
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Old December 1st, 2003, 17:04   #4
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Default VW rejects hybrids for better combustion engines..

I've already taken my TDI to 33g/mi (20.6g/km) of CO2 emissions from fossil carbon sources running on B100. The fossil carbon is from the methanol used in the transesterification. SVO or WVO won't have that fossil carbon source.
Why are we still searching for a viable solution?
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Old December 1st, 2003, 18:36   #5
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Default VW rejects hybrids for better combustion engines..

[ QUOTE ]
wxman said:
[ QUOTE ]
"Eventually we will see a single engine type, combining diesel and petrol combustion principles, which will meet stringent emission and consumption goals."

[/ QUOTE ]

A reference to HCCI?

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't think so. For various reasons, I think HCCI in the form that it's being developed in the laboratory today is dead in the water as far as a production system is concerned, although some of the research might be used for other things. A practical real-world engine that has to operate "robustly" over a wide range of ambient temperature, speed, and load has to have a defined and controllable ignition event, and with HCCI, that ain't happenin'. You can still use some of its concepts, but you need that defined ignition event.

The Mitsubishi GDI (and Volkswagen FSI ... Mitsubishi was first!!) is a step in the direction he mentions - direct injection for the gasoline engine. There have been other engines developed in the past that used direct injection with a diesel-like arrangement, but retaining the spark ignition.

Plasma-jet ignition is something that has been played with in the past. It's capable of igniting lean mixtures. That might be one piece of the puzzle.

Take the mechanics of a diesel engine with common-rail injection, and now you can inject fuel at any time in the cycle that you want. Add some type of lean-firing ignition system, and some type of valve timing control so that you can control how much air goes in without throttling, and then you can emulate practically any type of combustion process you want and you can run it differently under various conditions of speed and load, and you can control detonation by playing with injection and ignition timing. I think that's where he's heading.
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Old December 2nd, 2003, 06:03   #6
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Default VW rejects hybrids for better combustion engines..

Acutually there is a Huge resvoir of natarul gas in Alaska. But there is no resonable way for them to transport the gas to US cheaply.
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Old December 2nd, 2003, 06:31   #7
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Default VW rejects hybrids for better combustion engines..

Wow, about 10 different issues in one thread, all close to my heart.

There is a LOT more methane reserve than first appears. The problem is when an assessment determines that a reserve is a) proven and b) actually the right hydrocarbon to fit the mould of the assessment. In may parts of the world, you can drill a hole just about anywhere, and sooner or later you will run into a structure that has methane. The problem is much of it is very deep, expensive drilling, not yet "discovered" or "proved up", so doesn't "exist" from a formal assessment, but it is there. The other kinds of things that often escape general calculations is the amount recoverable from coal seams (HUGE), what lies on the floor of the ocean (also HUGE) and what is under the ocean (HUGE).

Even petroleum hydrocarbon stocks seldom include any allowance for heavy oils in shales and sands, even though these are now commercially produced (20% of all of Canada's HC energy comes from unconventional heavy crude). Finally, when a field is "dry" by current standards, it often contains 60 to 80% of the original oil in place. Energy self sufficiency for the US is just a matter of using enhanced recovery techniques in existing fields. A further 20 - 30% of OOIP is available with current technology - it just costs more to produce. I wouldn't be ordering that electric and solar pannels just yet.

I applaud VWs persuit of pure ICEs over hybridization - Lord knows cars are far too full of things that don't need to be there now. Not just designer fuels, but particularly designer AQUEOUS fuels are one viable route. Plasma jet ignition is also a proven technology that the incredibly conservative spark-ignition engineers aren't yet prepared to embrace (read about some at www.smartplugs.com). This is something you can do NOW in your very own garage if you are interested - and you could easily make a fairly crude setup that will perform at near zero NOX.

Bio-d, same thing. Not pie-in-the-sky, but proven, available technology. Unfortunately, the morons involved in government are still starrey-eyed over high-tech BS, and think that pure nonsense like hydrogen fuel cells are somehow going to rush into the limelight and save us all from what I don't know. If you ever wonder how we end up with trillion dollar deficits, wars, etc., just think about how well bio-d (and clean diesel engines) and ethanol is actually percieved by regulators.

That takes me to the second part - our current A4 Variant weighs a full 1/2 ton more than our A2 sedan, and THAT is a porker compared to an A1. Is it just the numbskull, fat, greedy, dubma$$ lazy consumer or have manufacturers consciously moved the $4,000 economy car into the $20,000 basic mini luxo-pig just for a better profit???

That's enough pontification for now, so I'll leave the floor to others.

Pat
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Old December 3rd, 2003, 03:12   #8
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Default VW rejects hybrids for better combustion engines..

[ QUOTE ]
wxman said:
[ QUOTE ]
"Eventually we will see a single engine type, combining diesel and petrol combustion principles, which will meet stringent emission and consumption goals."

[/ QUOTE ]

A reference to HCCI?

[/ QUOTE ]


Ah yes, the intriguing, exciting and altogether unrealistic HCCI engine. Maybe in a series hybrid, but thats about it. However, I think VW is actually referring to combining a diesel and gas engine in one, literally incorporating features from both to provide the best of both worlds. Complicated, but possibly feasible. Difficult to conceive of practically, but the concept is tempting.

PS: Throttling by any other name is still the same, whether its BMW's throttle-plate-free valvetronic or whatever. Unless you reduce the effective piston swept volume, you got throttlin' boy! [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
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Old December 3rd, 2003, 13:00   #9
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Default VW rejects hybrids for better combustion engines..

[ QUOTE ]
Pat Dolan said:
Bio-d, same thing. Not pie-in-the-sky, but proven, available technology. Unfortunately, the morons involved in government are still starrey-eyed over high-tech BS, and think that pure nonsense like hydrogen fuel cells are somehow going to rush into the limelight and save us all from what I don't know. If you ever wonder how we end up with trillion dollar deficits, wars, etc., just think about how well bio-d (and clean diesel engines) and ethanol is actually percieved by regulators.

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually prefer to think that Gee-dub and (most of) the rest of Washington is not moronic, but is rather looking out for their own interests. Our president has vast oil connections and well knows that hydrogen will never work as intended, certainly not in the next few decades (for various reasons discussed in other threads). Thus, he protects his oil interests while shutting up the environmentalists and the energy independentalists (I made that word up). The other side of the same motivational coin applies to biodiesel. That is, it is precisely because the people in power know that biodiesel could easily (and might eventually) replace petroleum diesel that it does not receive more support. Biodiesel is true petroluem competition.

Contrast biodiesel with ethanol. Ethanol actually receives quite a bit of government support, ranging from corn and direct ethanol subidies all the way to laws requiring the blending of ethanol into gasoline. Billions of gallons of government-subsidized and mandated ethanol gets produced each year in the U.S.. The only reason, I believe, that Washington supports it is that it does nothing to reduce our petroleum usage. It has such a horrible energy balance (~1:1), that it takes right around as much petroleum to produce ethanol as it saves/displaces. Thus, ethanol is not and will probably never be a true petroleum competitor.
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Old December 3rd, 2003, 17:03   #10
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Default VW rejects hybrids for better combustion engines..

[ QUOTE ]
It has such a horrible energy balance (~1:1), that it takes right around as much petroleum to produce ethanol as it saves/displaces. Thus, ethanol is not and will probably never be a true petroleum competitor.

[/ QUOTE ]

And we have a winner! NOT!

http://www.usda.gov/oce/oepnu/aer-813.pdf
We conclude that the NEV of corn ethanol has been rising over time due to technological advances in ethanol conversion and increased efficiency in farm production. We show that corn ethanol is energy efficient as indicated by an energy output:input ratio of 1.34.
------------------------------------------------------------

Just call me the fact checker, eh. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
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Old December 4th, 2003, 05:27   #11
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Default VW rejects hybrids for better combustion engines..

I am not big on hybrids myself but the one thing I like about them is the regenerative braking.
There is one design that has caught my attention and that is the Hyperdrive system.
http://www.paice.com/index.html
There is no transmission which saves some weight. I know that the vehicle will be much heavier with this system than without. And I don't know about their claims. I find it an interesting idea. Some mix of batteries and ultra capacitors may help this type of system.
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Old December 4th, 2003, 07:12   #12
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Default VW rejects hybrids for better combustion engines..

Dave:

Yeah, I didn't bother to qualify my ethanol comments, but your explanation is the reason I include ethanol policy in the list of dumbass energy policy. To that you can add CO2 production at the site of production.

Pat
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Old December 6th, 2003, 18:12   #13
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Default VW rejects hybrids for better combustion engines..

[ QUOTE ]
wxman said:
[ QUOTE ]
"Eventually we will see a single engine type, combining diesel and petrol combustion principles, which will meet stringent emission and consumption goals."

[/ QUOTE ]

A reference to HCCI?

[/ QUOTE ]


Here is a reference, from a VW website, to what they are talking about:

http://www.sunfuel.de/kss_engl/top_ks.html

Literally, a combination of diesel and spark-ignition combustion processes.

There is an interesting video there demonstrating some sort of partial homogenous combustion process - pretty cool, but not much info is given(I think its a Flash video only(?)).
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Old December 6th, 2003, 19:21   #14
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Default VW rejects hybrids for better combustion engines..

[ QUOTE ]
SwimmerDave said:
Thus, he protects his oil interests while shutting up the environmentalists and the energy independentalists (I made that word up). The other side of the same motivational coin applies to biodiesel. That is, it is precisely because the people in power know that biodiesel could easily (and might eventually) replace petroleum diesel that it does not receive more support.


[/ QUOTE ]

Biodiesel cannot at present and probably never will be able to completely replace petroleum diesel consumption (let alone total petroleum consumption) simply because you can't grow that many goddamned soy beans. From what I've read in various sources 20% of petro-diesel usage could be reliably replaced by biodiesel.

[ QUOTE ]

Biodiesel is true petroluem competition.


[/ QUOTE ]

That is true. However, it's not a petroleum replacement simply because we (the good ol' USA) use way too much of the stuff.
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Old December 7th, 2003, 06:25   #15
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Default VW rejects hybrids for better combustion engines..

And, as long as the price remains so ridiculously low, you (and "we") will CONTINUE using way too much.

When the half-wits drive up to the pumps in their bloat-pig sport utes and have the unmittigated gall to complain about the price of petro-fuel and then willingly shell out a buck a quart for freakin' tap water.........

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