www.tdiclub.com

Economy - Longevity - Performance
The #1 Source of TDI Information on the Web!
Forums Articles Links Meets
Orders TDI Club Cards TDIFest 2016 Gone, but not forgotten VAG-Com List Unit Conversions TDIClub Chat Thank You




Go Back   TDIClub Forums > VW TDI Discussion Areas > TDI (Diesel) Emissions

TDI (Diesel) Emissions This is a discussion about emissions from TDI's. Pro's cons of Diesels (including biodiesel) effects on the environment and how they compare to Gasoline and other fuel sources for Internal combustion engines.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old March 12th, 2018, 11:11   #1
bhtooefr
TDIClub Enthusiast
ToofTek Inventor
 
bhtooefr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Newark, OH
TDI(s): None
Default

Edit: This thread has been split off of the Electric vehicles (EVs), their emissions, and future viability thread. Some posts (including this post) from that thread have been duplicated for context.

UCS has updated their carbon footprint data to use 2016 grid emissions data, and expand the sales-weighting to include 2017: https://blog.ucsusa.org/dave-reichmu...to-get-cleaner



And here's a map using only the three most efficient EVs in the US - the Hyundai Ioniq BEV, the Tesla Model 3 LR, and (in charge depleting mode) the Toyota Prius Prime:

__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lug_Nut View Post
The really cool ToofTek made "Emperor's Clothes" injector fork risers only worked until someone pointed out that there wasn't any thing there.

Last edited by bhtooefr; March 18th, 2018 at 07:57.
bhtooefr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 12th, 2018, 16:13   #2
turbobrick240
Veteran Member
 
turbobrick240's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: maine
Default

I saw that first map the other day. The second one is even more revealing. It's quite dramatic when compared to the same maps from the previous five years. The grid is really cleaning up fast.
turbobrick240 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 12th, 2018, 21:56   #3
Tin Man
Veteran Member
 
Tin Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Coastal Empire
Fuel Economy: 51/40/30 TDI PD, 42/37/32 535d, 52/46/42 XE 2.0d
Default

Lets see if some other not-so-political organization publishes data and how it ends up cost-wise per mile when the electrical grid becomes taxed and needs to upgrade with future boatloads of EV's.

The cost per mile currently may favor EV's, but conveniently UCS (using EPA data) compares EV emissions (power plant, not production or mining of rare earth metals and their transport) to gasoline cars (diesel emissions for new clean diesels are generally better).

Glad to see the grid may be getting cleaner too. But information about other important factors in health such as non-automotive emissions, such as indoor (cooking), tire and road particulates (all also higher in cities), is often ignored or misinterpreted.

TM
__________________
'16 535d, '17 XE 2.0d, '04 NB TDI PD DSG
"We see things not as they are, but as we are."-- H. M. Tomlinson
"Once I make up my mind, I'm full of indecision."-- Oscar Levant
Tin Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 12th, 2018, 22:40   #4
turbobrick240
Veteran Member
 
turbobrick240's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: maine
Default

The UCS is not a political organization any more than Scott Pruitt or Rick Perry are scientists. And indoor cooking is probably not a major player in global carbon emissions. It surely is a health concern in third world countries. In our wealthy part of the globe, what is being cooked has got to have greater health consequences than the indoor air pollution from the cooking itself.

As far as rare earth metals, the new switched reluctance permanent magnet motors (in Tesla model 3 & semi) actually require very little rare earth metals as compared to the older pm motor technology. The model S/X have essentially none. And guess what- the catalysts in ICE vehicles contain rare earth metals too. Far better to embrace the future than fight it.
turbobrick240 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 12th, 2018, 23:49   #5
Tin Man
Veteran Member
 
Tin Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Coastal Empire
Fuel Economy: 51/40/30 TDI PD, 42/37/32 535d, 52/46/42 XE 2.0d
Default

UCS not political. Really.

Indoor emissions exist and likely affect city dwellers as do other non-diesel particulates. But diesels are targeted as we speak. I understand NOx emissions cause a lot of damage, but modern diesels emit about as much as any gasoline vehicle. But diesels are targeted almost exclusively.

Cobalt news: https://www.investors.com/news/ev-ne...-10-year-high/

Pfffff.
__________________
'16 535d, '17 XE 2.0d, '04 NB TDI PD DSG
"We see things not as they are, but as we are."-- H. M. Tomlinson
"Once I make up my mind, I'm full of indecision."-- Oscar Levant
Tin Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 13th, 2018, 03:39   #6
bhtooefr
TDIClub Enthusiast
ToofTek Inventor
 
bhtooefr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Newark, OH
TDI(s): None
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tin Man View Post
The cost per mile currently may favor EV's, but conveniently UCS (using EPA data) compares EV emissions (power plant, not production or mining of rare earth metals and their transport) to gasoline cars (diesel emissions for new clean diesels are generally better).
It is worth noting that they're only worrying, in these reports, about emissions with global warming potential. It'd be interesting to see their take on the criteria pollutant issue, but in this series of publications, they've not considered them.

Manufacturing emissions are something that they considered in their 2015 report, and determined that within the lifetime of the EV, the higher efficiency more than paid for itself. Grid decarbonization is only helping matters.

Diesel has ~13% higher tailpipe CO2 per gallon, dulling the efficiency gain, but I'm not sure how the refining emissions of diesel compare to gasoline. (They used GREET 2017, though, so it should be trivial to compare the well-to-pump GHG emissions for gasoline vs. diesel, for someone familiar with GREET.)
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lug_Nut View Post
The really cool ToofTek made "Emperor's Clothes" injector fork risers only worked until someone pointed out that there wasn't any thing there.
bhtooefr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 13th, 2018, 06:23   #7
kjclow
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Charlotte, NC
Fuel Economy: 55 max / 44 avg on beetle ~37 on JSW
Default

With the hydrotreatment to remove sulfur, my assumption is that the refining effects of diesel and gasoline are probably close enough to call them equal. I've not heard how they are going to remove the excess sulfur from the gasoline, but that's just around the corner.
__________________
2010 silver/black JSW TDI with DSG, 2011 red Golf TDI with dsg, 2003 red/gray Passat 1.8l gasser
kjclow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 13th, 2018, 08:35   #8
turbobrick240
Veteran Member
 
turbobrick240's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: maine
Default

It's the well to pump (and wheel) VOC emissions where diesel is far better than gasoline.
turbobrick240 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 13th, 2018, 10:54   #9
Tin Man
Veteran Member
 
Tin Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Coastal Empire
Fuel Economy: 51/40/30 TDI PD, 42/37/32 535d, 52/46/42 XE 2.0d
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhtooefr View Post
Diesel has ~13% higher tailpipe CO2 per gallon, dulling the efficiency gain,
Does that reflect the "true" seriously better efficiency of diesels vs pure gasoline vehicles or are they comparing diesels to hybrids? I know diesel has about 10% more energy per gallon, so CO2 should be much better with diesels. Apples to apples. Recently I've read about diesel hybrids....

PL
__________________
'16 535d, '17 XE 2.0d, '04 NB TDI PD DSG
"We see things not as they are, but as we are."-- H. M. Tomlinson
"Once I make up my mind, I'm full of indecision."-- Oscar Levant
Tin Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 13th, 2018, 11:03   #10
bhtooefr
TDIClub Enthusiast
ToofTek Inventor
 
bhtooefr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Newark, OH
TDI(s): None
Default

The 13% higher CO2 per gallon figure ignores the higher thermal efficiency of diesels, because it's purely the fuel.

Burn a gallon of diesel, get 22.4 pounds of CO2, end of story. Burn a gallon of gasoline, get 19.6 pounds of CO2 (although it's worth noting that E10 is lower tailpipe CO2). Basically, there's no free lunch - the added energy in a gallon of diesel fuel comes from a higher density of hydrocarbons.

In any case, diesels aren't actually considered in this data at all - it's purely gasoline-fueled vehicles versus electric vehicles. You have to get 80 miles per gallon of gasoline to match the average EV on the roads, using 2016 grid data, and 2011-2017 sales data.

So, a diesel, emitting 13% more per gallon, needs to get 90.4 MPG to match the EV, assuming that the amount of CO2 from producing the energy in diesel fuel is the same as gasoline. That's independent of how the energy is handled by the car (whether it's a hybrid or not) - if you can get 90.4 MPG combined in your diesel, more power to you. (However, an EV that's that efficient could likely beat your 90.4 MPG diesel.)
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lug_Nut View Post
The really cool ToofTek made "Emperor's Clothes" injector fork risers only worked until someone pointed out that there wasn't any thing there.
bhtooefr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 13th, 2018, 11:20   #11
Tin Man
Veteran Member
 
Tin Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Coastal Empire
Fuel Economy: 51/40/30 TDI PD, 42/37/32 535d, 52/46/42 XE 2.0d
Default

I'd prefer if they use "real world" data which would favor diesel, no matter the energy density of the fuel. CO2 is definitely better in diesels due to efficiency of burning.

How To Lie With Statistics: https://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&ke...l_8r0u192p7n_e

I'd rather stick with my current diesel, knowing things may change when there is more experience with EV's (I do favor them to some extent) and not rely on biased futurist proclamations and "data" from groups like the EPA and OCS who have their own agendas.

TM
__________________
'16 535d, '17 XE 2.0d, '04 NB TDI PD DSG
"We see things not as they are, but as we are."-- H. M. Tomlinson
"Once I make up my mind, I'm full of indecision."-- Oscar Levant
Tin Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 13th, 2018, 12:16   #12
bhtooefr
TDIClub Enthusiast
ToofTek Inventor
 
bhtooefr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Newark, OH
TDI(s): None
Default

Keep in mind that they're not talking about diesels. I'm talking about diesels. They're only talking about gasoline cars, because in the grand scheme of things, diesels are utterly irrelevant to the US discussion.

And, it'd be nice if there was real-world data on every car, although reproducibility on real-world data is difficult. The EPA does collect real user data, though.
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lug_Nut View Post
The really cool ToofTek made "Emperor's Clothes" injector fork risers only worked until someone pointed out that there wasn't any thing there.
bhtooefr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 13th, 2018, 13:12   #13
wxman
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: East TN, USA
TDI(s): Other Diesel
Default CO2 emissions of diesel vs. gasoline and ethanol fuel production

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhtooefr View Post
...Diesel has ~13% higher tailpipe CO2 per gallon, dulling the efficiency gain, but I'm not sure how the refining emissions of diesel compare to gasoline. (They used GREET 2017, though, so it should be trivial to compare the well-to-pump GHG emissions for gasoline vs. diesel, for someone familiar with GREET.)
Here are the output files of GREET1_2017 for the default gasoline and diesel passenger cars in GREET:








Note that gasoline has lower "feedstock" GHG emissions because GREET assumes the gasoline is E10.
wxman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 13th, 2018, 13:15   #14
oilhammer
Certified Volkswagen Nut Vendor
 
oilhammer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: St Louis
Fuel Economy: fantastic
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhtooefr View Post
Keep in mind that they're not talking about diesels. I'm talking about diesels. They're only talking about gasoline cars, because in the grand scheme of things, diesels are utterly irrelevant to the US discussion.
.

Please tell this to the EPA, so some of us can drive what we want to drive.
__________________
oilhammer
www.cardocautomotive.com
oilhammer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 13th, 2018, 14:31   #15
bhtooefr
TDIClub Enthusiast
ToofTek Inventor
 
bhtooefr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Newark, OH
TDI(s): None
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wxman View Post
Here are the output files of GREET1_2017 for the default gasoline and diesel passenger cars in GREET:
http://webpages.charter.net/lmarz/mu...Gas_Output.png
http://webpages.charter.net/lmarz/mu...sel_Output.png
Note that gasoline has lower "feedstock" GHG emissions because GREET assumes the gasoline is E10.
Interesting - so 22.3% of the gasoline GHG emissions are from feedstock or fuel (well to tank), 20.8% of the diesel GHG emissions are from feedstock or fuel.

However, I do find it interesting how much lower the feedstock stage is for gasoline (E10 doesn't fully explain it), and how much higher the fuel stage is.
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lug_Nut View Post
The really cool ToofTek made "Emperor's Clothes" injector fork risers only worked until someone pointed out that there wasn't any thing there.
bhtooefr is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Paper on diesel vs. gasoline well to wheels CO2 emissions durundal TDI (Diesel) Emissions 7 February 28th, 2009 13:36
Ethanol emissions (I know it isn't diesel, but is emissions related!) thenewguy TDI (Diesel) Emissions 8 April 23rd, 2007 06:31
Energy balance ratio of gasoline, ethanol, diesel, and biodiesel Dorado TDI Fuel Economy 8 June 24th, 2002 10:08
CO2 emissions of diesel vs. gasoline and ethanol fuel production TDI (Diesel) Emissions 0 December 31st, 1969 16:00


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:15.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright - TDIClub Online LTD - 2017
Contact Us | Privacy Statement | Forum Rules | Disclaimer
TDIClub Online Ltd (TDIClub.com) is not affiliated with the VWoA or VWAG and is supported by contributions from viewers like you.
1996 - 2017, All Rights Reserved
Page generated in 0.18118 seconds with 12 queries
[Output: 138.93 Kb. compressed to 116.78 Kb. by saving 22.16 Kb. (15.95%)]