www.tdiclub.com

Economy - Longevity - Performance
The #1 Source of TDI Information on the Web!
Forums Articles Links Meets
Orders TDI Club Cards TDIFest 2016 Gone, but not forgotten VAG-Com List Unit Conversions TDIClub Chat Thank You




Go Back   TDIClub Forums > TDI Model Specific Discussions Areas > VW MKIII-A3/B4 TDIs

VW MKIII-A3/B4 TDIs This is a discussion about MKIII-A3/MkIII Jetta/Golf (<99.5) and B4 Passats (96,97) TDI's. Non TDI related postings will be moved or removed.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old February 11th, 2018, 10:19   #16
Abacus
That helpful B4 guy
 
Abacus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Nobleboro, Maine
Fuel Economy: And the miles just keep ticking away
Default

A common issue on these engines is the crank sprocket moving, and it will create the problem you describe. Checking the static timing is easy and doesn't even require any special tools, although they are good to have. All you have to do is pull the top timing belt cover and the valve cover. Make sure the timing belt tensioner is close to the slot, it won't be exact since it's temperature compensating, so don't bother adjusting it and DO NOT use loctite on it.

Pull the transmission flywheel inspection plug and get the mark in the slot, then check the injection pump hole and the cam slot, to make sure it's even with the top of the head. If the crank sprocket is moving even a little they won't line up.

There is no way to 'check' the crank sprocket bolt, so don't bother. The only way to check it is to remove it and if you're removing it, you might as well replace it. I would not take it to a garage for this unless you can handle a big bill for the labor.

Check the static timing when cold and when it's warm and messing up. If they're in alignment each time, move on to the injection pump. Any air bubbles in the line by chance?

It could also be an electrical short, from two wires that only make contact when the engine is warm, which allow things to move around more. I've seen a fair amount of this in the past.
__________________
'97 B4: 453,000 miles Malone 3, PP520's, Stage 2 cam, SBC3, ARP studs, 2 1/4" exhaust, 2.5" Cat, no mufflers or EGR.
'96 B4V: 356,000 miles Malone 2+, PP520's, 6 speed, 02J short shifter, E-Codes, G60 brakes, Evo plate, DMF, stainless exhaust, heated leathers, cold weather package
BUG*PWR 2013 Award Winner
Abacus is online now   Reply With Quote
Old February 11th, 2018, 10:34   #17
iluvmydiesels
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: phila area
TDI(s): AHU
Fuel Economy: mk2's about 48mpg, mk3 ~43mpg thats @(near)80mph(-/+).
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abacus View Post
(1Make sure the timing belt tensioner is close to the slot,

There is no way to 'check' the crank sprocket bolt, so don't bother. The only way to check it is to remove it and if you're removing it, (<2>you might as well replace it. I would not take it to a garage for this unless you can handle a big bill for the labor.
1:the timing belt tensioner, while checking static timing, like abacus recommends, check, it has a mark and a slot they are supposed to line up or be close. do not loosen the tensioner, 1:you need the tool, 2:you need timing experience.
2:if you loosen crank bolt you need replacement. its a one-time use bolt. you can get them for ~$4.

another thing VW dealers arent the most adept, either your own garage, or a good private shop is most times much more consistent, and dealers are price gougers, they will add up that bill, both on paper, and tell you, you need this much(more and unnecessary)work, and if they get you in the shop. a private shop will be hard to find to know our 'tricks'. they can be good for certain things, but i doubt many are very well knowledgeable of such tricks as problem crank snout timing problems. if you have a good shop, ask him to look at it, and give other relative info for him to check.
__________________
small fleet of mk3 tdi
have exp on mk1&2, idi
other vw interests
iluvmydiesels is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 11th, 2018, 11:16   #18
Vince Waldon
Veteran Member
 
Vince Waldon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giberish33 View Post
The timing graph starts off dead on when cold starting as I observed yesterday in vagcom and progressively drops off.
Ah... perhaps we're misunderstanding your symptoms. Are you saying every morning the timing starts off perfect... but after the car has been run for a while the timing drops?

If so, here's the thing: the timing is adjusted for temperature (both fuel and coolant) and you should in fact be getting warnings from VCDS if either are too cool for accurate checking... in particular, if the engine (aka coolant) is too cool.

Is this the case? IIRC the coolant has to be a minimum of 80C to accurately check the timing (which is why I do my tuneups in the summer... hard to get to 80C in Edmonton in the winter )
__________________
Vince Waldon Edmonton AB Canada

Note: The above is to the best of my knowledge- but at the end of the day simply interweb opinion, worth EXACTLY what you paid for it, and if used done so at your own risk.

Last edited by Vince Waldon; February 11th, 2018 at 11:18.
Vince Waldon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 11th, 2018, 11:26   #19
Giberish33
Newbie
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Montreal, Qc
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abacus View Post

Check the static timing when cold and when it's warm and messing up. If they're in alignment each time, move on to the injection pump. Any air bubbles in the line by chance?

It could also be an electrical short, from two wires that only make contact when the engine is warm, which allow things to move around more. I've seen a fair amount of this in the past.
What do you mean by "in alignment each time"? Like I get repeatable scenario where the static timing is dead on when cold and then drops off to retarded each time? The day I had the weird lumpy idle it did sound like most of the noise was up front closer to the IP, I have observed some bubbles going though the clear line to the IP but nothing substantial, maybe a few medium sized bubbles for a split second and then no bubbles for a while. I've always had some small amount of air but no streams and no constant air.

I dont have the ability to get under the car or do any of the TDC verification your asking about right now, its ****ting snow in canada and I have no place to work on my car. The garage I'm talking about is not a vw dealer its a local vw/audi guy that is well known liked here in montreal, people have nothing but good things to say about him (good prices and honest). He is actually the guy who did my timing belt about 30000kms ago and who resealed my IP about 1.5years ago. I would normally be willing to do the work myself and learn but I dont have the work space to do it right now, if it was summer it would be a different story.
Giberish33 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old February 11th, 2018, 11:45   #20
Giberish33
Newbie
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Montreal, Qc
Default

Yes Vince, that seems to be exactly what is going on, yesterday morning I had the car plugged in for about 1 hour or so and started the car up with my laptop and vdcs hooked up. I know normally timing is checked with coolant above 80c and that timing will be dependent on fuel temp. coolant was about 26c when I started the car and I let it idle for a minute or 2 while i checked out IQ , dynamic timing and coolant/fuel/ambient temps. I went into basic settings then tdi timing graph and observed the timing lining up with the blue line although towards the left of the graph because fuel wasn't up to temp yet. I drove the car around my area at low speeds for a little to get everything up to temp, got back home fuel sitting at ~39c, coolant at ~91c and again checking the timing graph it was reading mid 30's (timing number was mid-high 40's when last observers in the summer fiy)

As a side note, I changed the fuel temp sensor just before the winter becuase it was reading like almost 20c too high(was reading like mid 60's in the summer yet the fuel filter was just warm to the touch), after changing the temp sensor temps were more realistic and timing graph went up a few points.

Everything about driving the car feels and sounds normal to me except when checking vdcs where I see the timing graph is now half way between the middle and bottom red line. IQ is normal, dynamic timing normal (0.9btdc when warm, 2-3btcd when cold), no cold start issues (normal crank time and no abnormal smoke when starting), no stumbling or hesitation when driving (smooth acceleration and pulls fine in boost). Even if I nit pick and say the idle is slightly more vibration than before its nothing new as my injection deviation values arn't great and I know im due to change the nozzles /have them calibrated. If the crank snout is getting mangled and timing did slip wouldn't there be some sort of constant drivability issue with things not lining up to tdc? Cold start issues? missing or noticeable issues though the rev range? Not trying to stick my head in the sand but it just doesn't seem like anything is significantly wrong.

Anyone know what kind of cost would be associated with having the crank sprocket and harmonic balancer changed at an independent vw/audi shop? The car has great sentimental value to me so I doubt the cost will be too much.

Last edited by Giberish33; February 11th, 2018 at 11:52.
Giberish33 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old February 11th, 2018, 14:55   #21
Vince Waldon
Veteran Member
 
Vince Waldon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Default

Well, this no longer sounds like a crank sprocket issue, since it's a predictable change in timing rather than a sudden, permanent shift.

I'm still not super-clear on your symptoms... are you saying;

- the coolant temperature is always over 80 whenever you check the timing
- you're always in basic settings (ie ECU control of timing disabled) whenever you check the timing
- and yet somehow the timing changes dramatically between when you first get the engine over 80 C and later in the day?
__________________
Vince Waldon Edmonton AB Canada

Note: The above is to the best of my knowledge- but at the end of the day simply interweb opinion, worth EXACTLY what you paid for it, and if used done so at your own risk.
Vince Waldon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 11th, 2018, 16:21   #22
Giberish33
Newbie
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Montreal, Qc
Default

1. Normally I would check the timing graph when the coolant is over 80c, but in this case I checked the timing graph very soon after cold start so coolant "hot" yet.
2. Yes I am always checking the timing graph by going Measuring blocks>000>go>switch to basic settings>TDI-Timing. Unless this is not the correct method?
3. No. Timing is changing from following the blue line(dead on) soon after cold start to halfway between blue and red lines (slightly retarded). This shift occurs after a period of driving to get all temperatures up. I just got back from a drive to confirm this is the exact same behavior as I saw yesterday under the same circumstances of cold start timing is up but after driving (coolant and fuel up to temp) timing is retarded.

Something else I noted is that my injection deviation/balance rates for cyl 3 are starting off positive when cold starting but then end up being in the negatives when things are up to temp. Seems that there is some similarity between timing and injection deviation. Something IP related? QA starting to fail?

Here is a some pics and a video of my harmonic balancer right after cold start. Sorry I forgot a pic of the timing graph when warm but fuel was just above 100 and timing jumping a little between high 30's low 40's you will see that those 2 line up about halfway between blue and red.
Video:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Sj...l8OURBSvb53f_i

Timing graph after cold start:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=15r...JTnq2a2GmUg93t

Injection deviation after cold start:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1wg...kYsEofeAufyFnn

Injection deviation when warm:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1JI...UiRPqpIl5bAhem
Giberish33 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old February 11th, 2018, 17:12   #23
Vince Waldon
Veteran Member
 
Vince Waldon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Default

Sorry for being so dense... it's hard over the internet... but in essence you're saying the static timing shown on the timing graph is different when the engine coolant is warmed up to 80 C than it is with the engine stone cold?
__________________
Vince Waldon Edmonton AB Canada

Note: The above is to the best of my knowledge- but at the end of the day simply interweb opinion, worth EXACTLY what you paid for it, and if used done so at your own risk.
Vince Waldon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 11th, 2018, 18:11   #24
Giberish33
Newbie
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Montreal, Qc
Default

No worries man, partly my fault for just spewing info lol. But I can see how my initial post could sound like the crank sprocket was at fault. I hadn't had a chance to check vagcom when the car was stone cold or find a pattern / repeatable symptoms.

Yeah timing is about 10 points higher when stone cold than when coolant/fuel are up to temperature. Possible that the injector balance going from positive to negative value lines up with the timing being different from stone cold to fully warmed up?
Giberish33 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old February 11th, 2018, 18:18   #25
Vince Waldon
Veteran Member
 
Vince Waldon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Default

No worries.

Unfortunately I'm now at a loss... I dunno that the static timing values/graph have any diagnostic meaning if the coolant is not at full operating temperature.

Ross-Tech might know?
__________________
Vince Waldon Edmonton AB Canada

Note: The above is to the best of my knowledge- but at the end of the day simply interweb opinion, worth EXACTLY what you paid for it, and if used done so at your own risk.
Vince Waldon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 11th, 2018, 18:31   #26
Giberish33
Newbie
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Montreal, Qc
Default

I guess the question now becomes "what could cause timing to drift as the car warms up"?

What other sensors / parts are responsible for adjusting timing depending on temp? CTS, fuel temp sensor maybe timing belt tensioner as its supposed to adjust depending on temperature? Either way thanks for the info Vince
Giberish33 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old February 11th, 2018, 19:31   #27
iluvmydiesels
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: phila area
TDI(s): AHU
Fuel Economy: mk2's about 48mpg, mk3 ~43mpg thats @(near)80mph(-/+).
Default

yea but whats drifting, as far as timing. mechanical timing? mechanical timing can change, well some as an engine warms up, this in later models is compensated for with a tensioner that has a warming motor 'adjustment'. <mechanical in nature. the injection VCDS timing changing makes little sense, for one the engineers at VW made this, its their adjustment. when coolant reaches operating temps and we hook up and get VCDS reading we then go form the measuring block screen and look up timing graph and select the correct engine set up, and get a reading @idle, and adjust(if necessary). as far as changing in timing, which variable would you choose? any will apply, lo-engine temp, yea at idle as our motor heats up there will/should be timing change. this is inconsequential its programmed in. get accurate timing with coolant at or about temp.
__________________
small fleet of mk3 tdi
have exp on mk1&2, idi
other vw interests
iluvmydiesels is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 11th, 2018, 20:00   #28
Vince Waldon
Veteran Member
 
Vince Waldon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giberish33 View Post
I guess the question now becomes "what could cause timing to drift as the car warms up"?
...and I guess what I'm wondering if it's even abnormal for it to drift until operating temperature is reached ?

I don't know one way or the other... hopefully smarter people will weigh in.

VCDS *is* pretty picky about warning that the engine needs to be fully warm before checking/adjusting timing... that may mean that the numbers are meaningless until then.

Or not.
__________________
Vince Waldon Edmonton AB Canada

Note: The above is to the best of my knowledge- but at the end of the day simply interweb opinion, worth EXACTLY what you paid for it, and if used done so at your own risk.
Vince Waldon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 11th, 2018, 20:28   #29
Giberish33
Newbie
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Montreal, Qc
Default

I get that timing does normally shift when the car is warming up, a few months ago however the timing was dead on with everything up to operating temp. Now tiiming is more retarted given the same engine temp, so I'm trying to figure out what could allow for the IP timing to shift down on its own. All hypothetical right now I will have to see what happens a when I adjust the ip timing back to where it's suppsed to be. If it drops into the retarded area again or stays put. I know from the OP till now might be confusing as the symptoms in my OP could have been for a different problem. Its been several months since I hooked up vagcom and the only reason I thought something might be wrong is because I noticed slight differences in driving the same route with the same conditions. My timing when warm is lower than it was in the summer and maybe i only noticed it now by some fluke but I would like to find out what things can cause this, or if it is normal for the ip timing to drift to the retarded area over time on its own.
Giberish33 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old February 12th, 2018, 05:51   #30
Giberish33
Newbie
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Montreal, Qc
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by iluvmydiesels View Post
get accurate timing with coolant at or about temp.
I did and it seems the static timing has shifted down by about 10 points @ same coolant & fuel temp. I was noticing that my idle was decently more shaky and after running some powerservice and getting through most of my tank it had not changed yet so I checked out timing in vagcom. The last time I checked the static timing graph was over the summer so several months ago.
Giberish33 is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Lumpy idle sio VW B5 Passat TDIs 8 July 1st, 2013 08:13
lumpy idle and lumpy 2500rpm. Occasional popcorn. Worried about cam. Logs included. Sella Turcica VW MKV-A5 Golf/Jettas 3 April 16th, 2012 18:27
Lumpy idle ? JASONP VW MKVI-A6 Golf family including Jetta SportWagen (~ 2010-2014) 9 April 11th, 2012 11:42
Static timing set, IP timing still too retarded evolveVW TDI 101 12 April 6th, 2010 13:41
Lumpy idle when cold RichyP VW MKIV-A4 TDIs (VE and PD) 6 September 10th, 2000 09:38


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 13:48.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright - TDIClub Online LTD - 2017
Contact Us | Privacy Statement | Forum Rules | Disclaimer
TDIClub Online Ltd (TDIClub.com) is not affiliated with the VWoA or VWAG and is supported by contributions from viewers like you.
1996 - 2017, All Rights Reserved
Page generated in 0.20673 seconds with 10 queries
[Output: 138.25 Kb. compressed to 116.87 Kb. by saving 21.38 Kb. (15.47%)]