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Old February 4th, 2018, 22:18   #1
BaileyVW
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Default Injection pump timing not keeping time

New to the forum, though I've been following it for years to understand work being done on my car ('03 Jetta TDI). I'm looking for guidance and input on recent issues with the timing of my engine and trying to get to the bottom of what happened. Bear with me, I don't work on the car and am trying to understand some of the basics!

Recent hard starting issues and lack of power led to cleaning out the intake manifold (full of carbon), replacement of ECT, MAP Sensor, adjustment of injection pump timing and adjusting settings on [computer] and new fuel filter. Ran great for three days - though I noticed lower than usual MPG and check engine light came on. Brought it back in to be looked at and fault code was for thermostat. Was sent on my way with comment that it would be fine.

Drove 60 miles to my destination, car sat for 2 hours and when I went to start car, it turned over but wouldn't fire - lots of smoke and smells like diesel. Couldn't get car to start so had it towed back to shop.

Since it had just been worked on for these issues, something wasn't right. Second time around, previous work was checked and, in doing so, the engine siezed. Here's where I have questions to understand what might/might not have been done:

Injection pump timing was checked again and found to be out of spec. Injection pump bolts were replaced.

1. When replacing these bolts, would tension be released on the tb? Would one need to loosen any of the other sprockets in order to replace these bolts? Would cam sprocket need to be loosened?
2. Should engine timing be checked along with injection pump timing?
3. Should engine be turned over manually before attempting to start vehicle?
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Old February 5th, 2018, 00:03   #2
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1) No, No, and No.
2) Yes, if it wasn't known to be correct to begin with
3) Only if the TB tension was reset/released, cam sprocket loosened/moved, etc. If ONLY the IP sprocket bolts were loosened to advance/retard timing then it would not be neccessary.
Explain "engine siezed" further please.
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Old February 5th, 2018, 04:42   #3
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There is a LOT to take in here in your post.
First off we need to know why and how the engine was underpowered. Did it just happen "randomly" that the power dropped? The intake carbon gunk is a "over time" issue, if you lost power than this was not the issue. Plenty of cars run fine with "clogged intakes" Unless you take the head off the car or do some trick cleaning, you done goofed. If you did not take the intake manifold off the engine to clean it you probably did some damage to it.

The other issue here is why did you have to adjust the pumps timing? If it was running before, there was NO reason to mess with it other than a stretched timing belt. I highly suspect that the timing belt is damaged and that this is what caused out of time on the IP.

Please explain "seized engine" as in you can’t even crank it over by hand? Or it doesn’t turn over when you turn the key?

What previous work was checked? Did you ever check the timing on the cam, crank, and the Trans hole on the flywheel? I have never once had an IP move out of time on me. Once you put a belt on it and get it set where you want, no matter how many belts you change, the timing is not going to change, ever. Well not enough that would cause any issues. I suspect that the manufacturing of those belts are not precise enough to say that it does not change in some way but probably unmeasurable from my experience.

Your 03 has an ALH and that is a big job to do the timing belt and I don’t think you would fail to mention such a large task complete.

Jettawreck answered your questions right
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Old February 5th, 2018, 05:02   #4
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1(a) There are three bolts on the IP sprocket. They should be replaced one at a time, but someone that doesn't know what they are doing could take out all three bolts which would cause a lot of problems if not done properly.

And again, what do you mean by "seized"? To most people it means that it won't move at all. I suspect that there is a misunderstanding between the mechanic and the non-mechanic.
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Old February 5th, 2018, 05:04   #5
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After changing the IP bolts, car was started and after 30 seconds, it stopped and wouldn't move. All we've found so far is that the crankshaft bolt was found to be loose but no other info is known at this time. Assumption is a bent valve, but not confirmed at this time.
I'm trying to understand what might have happened and where to look next.
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Old February 5th, 2018, 05:08   #6
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It sounds like someone had replaced the front crank seal when doing a timing belt and didn't get the bolt tightened correctly.

Yeah, that loose crank bolt is kinda important information.
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Old February 5th, 2018, 05:18   #7
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In that case, water pump was replaced 2k miles ago and engine timing was timed at that time(re-used the existing tb). Would crank seal have been needed to be replaced? Otherwise, timing belt was last replaced 60,000 miles ago.
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Old February 5th, 2018, 05:27   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whitedog View Post
It sounds like someone had replaced the front crank seal when doing a timing belt and didn't get the bolt tightened correctly.

Yeah, that loose crank bolt is kinda important information.
That would explain it.
Someone did not follow or understand proper procedure.
That crank bolt should only be loosened if you need to change the front seal or the oil pump chain.
If it is lossened for any reason it needs to be replaced with a new TTY bolt and torqued properly.....which requires special tools and knowledge.
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Old February 5th, 2018, 05:30   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaileyVW View Post
In that case, water pump was replaced 2k miles ago and engine timing was timed at that time(re-used the existing tb). Would crank seal have been needed to be replaced? Otherwise, timing belt was last replaced 60,000 miles ago.
No, the front crank seal is usualy only replaced when and if it is leaking....which is relativly rare.

Last edited by maxmoo; February 5th, 2018 at 05:33.
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Old February 5th, 2018, 05:30   #10
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Maybe it needed to be replaced, maybe not - there is no way to tell via the interwebs.

So focus on what is going on now. Crank pulley bolts is loose, engine won't turn over. If the engine turns backwards a bit, then come to the same point and stops, then you probably have a broken valve. If the mechanic can't figure out what is going on, then you need a new mechanic.
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Old February 5th, 2018, 05:37   #11
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Order new bolt, do a timing belt job PROPERLY and get it all to TDC. when you replace that bolt and get ti all to TDC and get a new belt on, if you cant rotate it by hand (wrench) easily, your taking the head off and probably rebuilding the engine.
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Old February 5th, 2018, 05:52   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whitedog View Post
Maybe it needed to be replaced, maybe not - there is no way to tell via the interwebs.

So focus on what is going on now. Crank pulley bolts is loose, engine won't turn over. If the engine turns backwards a bit, then come to the same point and stops, then you probably have a broken valve. If the mechanic can't figure out what is going on, then you need a new mechanic.
^Yes, that is true....I had assumed the OP meant to ask does the crank bolt need to be replaced when changing the waterpump and it does not.

Last edited by maxmoo; February 5th, 2018 at 05:57.
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Old February 5th, 2018, 05:57   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mongler98 View Post
Order new bolt, do a timing belt job PROPERLY and get it all to TDC. when you replace that bolt and get ti all to TDC and get a new belt on, if you cant rotate it by hand (wrench) easily, your taking the head off and probably rebuilding the engine.
It is highly likely that valves have been damaged by contacitng pistons and the head will need to come off but rarely does the complete engine need to be rebuilt.
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Old February 5th, 2018, 06:10   #14
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what maxmoo said, also it's possible someone left a ratchet or breaker bar on the crank bolt and forgot about it when starting the car
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Old February 5th, 2018, 07:43   #15
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Why don't you PM me... I have some questions. Or if you prefer, give me a call.

This is very sad. I am thinking the shop is going to say, 'The loose crank bolt was not caused by us." But everything went to crap while it was in their hands...

Let's start with the work they have done...

Although the temp sensor can go bad, I find it's 10: 1, the thermostat gets replace before a temp sensor does... but temp sensors are easy to replace and thermostats are slightly harder. Don't think just because they replaced the sensor and you gauge is 'reading right', it's ok. The dash gauge reads 190 when the water temp is 170 or 210.

I have replaced 2 MAP sensors that was not related to a performance upgrade. One of those was due to an accident, which broke it. On the other hand, I've had bad MAPs from the factory that did not work correctly. I would seriously doubt the MAP needed changed. When that gets changed, 1) it's kinda something that gets overcharged for, $60-$100 and labor, usually an hour and in my opinion, it's 'throwing money at a car'.

Now, the engine SIEZED?!? I think what really happened is the belt lost timing and the valves struck pistons. That is something my shop regularly repairs and something I would not trust this shop with, IMHO.

The simple check if to remove the cam shaft. No need to remove the head just yet. If the timing was lost, the weak point in the system is the cam follower and they will rupture. Engine speed hit will dent the lifter down. Starter speed hits will mushroom the lifters up. But if they are flat and there are no cracks (look very closely at each lifter...), then you have not lost your timing or had an interference strike.

I would make an offer to help, as this happens to be 'our cup of tea'..
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