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Go Back   TDIClub Forums > VW TDI Discussion Areas > Dieselgate - VW Group Emission Scandal

Dieselgate - VW Group Emission Scandal Discussion around the VW Dieselgate Emissions scandal. Details and news updates can be viewed here: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=448336 This forum is a work in progress depending on requirements, usage, etc.

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Old February 13th, 2018, 11:41   #16
kjclow
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I also am hoping that diesel is not dead. It will be interesting to see what the sales rates are of the GM small diesels in another year or two. The Cruze is a little small for my needs but might consider an Equinox. Looking at a Ram 1500 diesel right now. If we get the truck, we will drive the JSW until the wheels fall off. Or at least until the extended fix warranty expires.
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Old February 13th, 2018, 13:08   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donallen View Post
This is written as if the only consideration regarding fuel efficiency is money, when scientists world-wide, and the planet itself (noticed any bizarre weather lately?), are warning us in no uncertain terms that we may be doing irreparable damage to our only planet with our idiotic behavior with cars and other energy sinks.
Google "prius sales gas prices" and tell me that the market doesn't see fuel efficiency=money. Cheap gas has contributed to the boom in SUVs (around the world) despite passenger cars being more efficient. Even without tighter emissions requirements forcing many diesels out of the U.S. market, diesel sales would be lagging despite its fuel efficiency advantage because of cheap gas.

If people AND governments we're all that concerned about the planet, as opposed to giving lip service to a problem to serve a political agenda, we'd see a modern powertrain in a Golf MK1, which weighed only 1,750 lbs (!!!) and was 146 inches long (Golf MK6 is 3,000 lbs and 165 inches). Manufacturing a 60+ mpg vehicle to "save the planet" is easy--just don't expect anybody to buy it.
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Old February 14th, 2018, 09:31   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHawk View Post
If people AND governments we're all that concerned about the planet, as opposed to giving lip service to a problem to serve a political agenda, we'd see a modern powertrain in a Golf MK1, which weighed only 1,750 lbs (!!!) and was 146 inches long (Golf MK6 is 3,000 lbs and 165 inches).
Short length doesn't equal efficiency - in fact, it often hurts it, due to not having a long enough roofline.

Height and width are what you want to worry about.
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Old February 14th, 2018, 13:15   #19
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Originally Posted by bhtooefr View Post
Short length doesn't equal efficiency - in fact, it often hurts it, due to not having a long enough roofline.
Height and width are what you want to worry about.
You're conflating efficiency with aerodynamics. Aerodynamics is only one component of efficiency and its importance varies greatly with vehicle speed. All things being equal, if you chopped off 20 inches from a car, WITH proportional weight reduction, you'd get better economy even assuming a slight decrease in coefficient of drag from a shorter roofline.

My real point to the previous commenter was that the broad automobile market seeks an optimal ratio of fuel cost to vehicle efficiency rather than an overall reduction in GHG emissions. When fuel cost goes down, sales of efficient vehicles drops as well. Superimposed on this trend is a continued movement of the consumer toward larger vehicles, both the multifunctional (e.g., SUVs, 4-door pickups) AND within a given make and model of sedan/hatchback, such as you see with the striking expansion in dimensions and weight of the VW Golf over the years. If reducing GHG emissions were a driving force in consumer decision-making and government regulation, we would turn back the clock 40 years to a pre-SUV era when little cars from Japan and Europe, as well as some (awful) domestics (Chevette, Pinto, Maverick, Omni/Horizon) were selling strong. Any one of those vehicles made today using modern technology would exceed 60 mpg, with commensurate low GHG emissions--but hardly anyone would buy them.

By the way, Golf MK1 - 63.4 inches width / 54.9 inches height, MK6 - 70 inches width / 58.2 inches height. Given aerodynamic improvements, the MK6 is probably has less drag at highway speeds despite the larger frontal area.
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Old February 14th, 2018, 14:17   #20
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You know this discussion is purely hypothetical because cars that size would have a lot of difficulty meeting current safety standards. However, cars that will meet standards and get well in excess of 60 MPG already exist, like the 1.4L Polo.

Problem is, as you've pointed out, that people don't want those cars. I'm stunned by how small my MKIV cars look compared to modern trucks and SUVs.
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Old February 15th, 2018, 07:02   #21
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Look at the Honda Civic of today versus the CVCC on the mid 70s. My swim coach had one of those and to this day I am amazed that three teen aged boys could fit in the back seat. His son was one of my best friends so we were always going some where with the coach.
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Old February 15th, 2018, 11:36   #22
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Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon View Post
You know this discussion is purely hypothetical because cars that size would have a lot of difficulty meeting current safety standards. However, cars that will meet standards and get well in excess of 60 MPG already exist, like the 1.4L Polo.

Problem is, as you've pointed out, that people don't want those cars. I'm stunned by how small my MKIV cars look compared to modern trucks and SUVs.
Great picture!

You are absolutely right about the safety standards. Long ago, my girlfriend had a 1979 Corolla (curb weight = 1,950 lbs). The doors looked like they were about 2 inches thick. It really was a tin can. Obviously no way it could meet current U.S. or European safety standards. Today, even a new Tata Tiago (India subcompact) weighs in at over 2,000 lbs, but it does get over 60 mpg with its 1.05L diesel and almost that with a 1.2L gas engine.

I know--I've gotten hopelessly off-topic. To get back on-topic, I think diesels are in a tough spot now, particularly in the U.S. If VW and Mercedes are out of the diesel market, we're looking at only a few models of diesels being sold here by only a few manufacturers (excluding diesel pickups, but even those are mostly for heavy-duty towing, not suburban living). But what's the diesel sales pitch for the general public?:
-economy? With cheaper gas and availability of hybrids, I don't see this as being effective, especially given higher prices for diesel vehicles.
-durability? It's not clear that this traditional argument for diesel is even true anymore.
-performance? Higher torque but lower horsepower is a tough sell to the general public.
-"clean diesel"? Yeah, right.
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Old February 18th, 2018, 22:48   #23
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Of course they have to kill diesels. They can't have any competition to electric cars which the global elite are pushing hard.

Electric cars require massive subsidies and the average person would not choose to spend their hard earned money on a range bound 300 mile Tesla Model 3 for $55k (the true cost of a model 3 before Gov't subsidies) over a 600 mile range Golf Sportwagen TDI for $25k (that is much higher quality too).

This is all a part of U.N. Agenda 21. They want everyone living in high density stack and pack apartments in city centers and not out in the suburbs or countryside so they need to control everyone's movement and push these range bound autonomous vehicles. You owe income tax or are vocal about government trangressions? Guess what- your 100% electric car will stop working at a push of a button.

I know this all sounds crazy but look into it yourself. These things don't happen by chance. Every car company is breaking some rule or cheating in some way. The EPA gets to selectively enforce these rules/laws and they had to take down VW Diesels as they were just gaining widespread popularity.

I bought 3 of these fixed TDIs (to go along with my '02 ALH Wagon) knowing that the days of diesels is coming to an end. I may have just made a big financial investment blunder (spending $100k+ for these 3 TDIs) in a dying technology but in my own little way it's an act of defiance. I had a reservation for a Model 3 (stood in line the first day reservations were available) and when I came to the revelation as to what was taking place I cancelled it and immediately decided to buy as many TDIs as I could.

You can take my TDIs from my cold dead hands.
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Old February 19th, 2018, 06:50   #24
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Originally Posted by volksjaeger View Post
They want everyone living in high density stack and pack apartments in city centers and not out in the suburbs or countryside
This is the most sensible conspiracy theory I've ever heard. Let's do it!
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Old February 19th, 2018, 06:56   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by volksjaeger View Post
You owe income tax or are vocal about government trangressions? Guess what- your 100% electric car will stop working at a push of a button.
Never mind that plenty of ICE vehicles also have telematics, and some EVs don't have telematics.

No telematics, no push-of-a-button kill. And, an EV is easier to take off-grid than a diesel - all you need is a few solar panels, a stand for them, an inverter, and your 120 volt EVSE. Compare to the equipment and labor needed to make biodiesel. And, running solar on an EV won't gunk up your fuel system, whereas running side-of-the-road-made biodiesel easily can.

And what happens if the EPA bans the import and manufacture of parts to repair your TDIs? For that matter, what if the market decides to stop making parts - this isn't unlikely, this is already becoming a problem for the ALH, as European emissions laws are making them cost-prohibitive to keep on the road.
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Last edited by bhtooefr; February 19th, 2018 at 06:59.
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Old February 19th, 2018, 07:07   #26
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I find it somewhat hard to believe that someone who thinks that the U.N. Agenda 21 was some sort of nefarious conspiracy hatched up by Jack Ruby and Glenn Beck to gain mind control while they institute the Protocols of the elders of Zion..... actually had an early model 3 reservation. But I guess stranger things have happened. Watch out for those chemtrails!
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Old February 19th, 2018, 07:35   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by volksjaeger View Post
Of course they have to kill diesels. They can't have any competition to electric cars which the global elite are pushing hard.
Electric cars require massive subsidies and the average person would not choose to spend their hard earned money on a range bound 300 mile Tesla Model 3 for $55k (the true cost of a model 3 before Gov't subsidies) over a 600 mile range Golf Sportwagen TDI for $25k (that is much higher quality too).
This is all a part of U.N. Agenda 21. They want everyone living in high density stack and pack apartments in city centers and not out in the suburbs or countryside so they need to control everyone's movement and push these range bound autonomous vehicles. You owe income tax or are vocal about government trangressions? Guess what- your 100% electric car will stop working at a push of a button.
I know this all sounds crazy but look into it yourself. These things don't happen by chance. Every car company is breaking some rule or cheating in some way. The EPA gets to selectively enforce these rules/laws and they had to take down VW Diesels as they were just gaining widespread popularity.
I bought 3 of these fixed TDIs (to go along with my '02 ALH Wagon) knowing that the days of diesels is coming to an end. I may have just made a big financial investment blunder (spending $100k+ for these 3 TDIs) in a dying technology but in my own little way it's an act of defiance. I had a reservation for a Model 3 (stood in line the first day reservations were available) and when I came to the revelation as to what was taking place I cancelled it and immediately decided to buy as many TDIs as I could.
You can take my TDIs from my cold dead hands.
I got a kickback from the Gummint when I bought my '09 clean diesel.
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Old February 19th, 2018, 07:41   #28
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This popped up in the news, a possible Mercedes diesel scandal.
http://www.autonews.com/article/2018...andal-software
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Old February 19th, 2018, 11:13   #29
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Originally Posted by turbobrick240 View Post
I find it somewhat hard to believe that someone who thinks that the U.N. Agenda 21 was some sort of nefarious conspiracy ...
A little education goes a long way. Here's Rosa Koire - a forensic appraiser that talks about Agenda 21. https://youtu.be/Xu02iNri6cc

it's very real and there's plenty of evidence it's being implemented.
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Old February 19th, 2018, 11:36   #30
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Originally Posted by bhtooefr View Post
Never mind that plenty of ICE vehicles also have telematics, and some EVs don't have telematics.

No telematics, no push-of-a-button kill. And, an EV is easier to take off-grid than a diesel - all you need is a few solar panels, a stand for them, an inverter, and your 120 volt EVSE. Compare to the equipment and labor needed to make biodiesel. And, running solar on an EV won't gunk up your fuel system, whereas running side-of-the-road-made biodiesel easily can.

And what happens if the EPA bans the import and manufacture of parts to repair your TDIs? For that matter, what if the market decides to stop making parts - this isn't unlikely, this is already becoming a problem for the ALH, as European emissions laws are making them cost-prohibitive to keep on the road.
Its called we nuke the EPA and go back to actually having a free country.
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