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Go Back   TDIClub Forums > VW TDI Discussion Areas > Dieselgate - VW Group Emission Scandal

Dieselgate - VW Group Emission Scandal Discussion around the VW Dieselgate Emissions scandal. Details and news updates can be viewed here: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=448336 This forum is a work in progress depending on requirements, usage, etc.

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Old January 24th, 2018, 05:00   #1
Q5TDI
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Default Mercedes Dumps Diesel-Will Diesels Survive?

https://www.motoring.com.au/mercedes...-in-us-110699/
The list of alternative vehicles continues to shrink.

Interesting part of the story, which explains why Fiat Chrysler has yet to re-introduce the Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited Ecodiesel and why the long-awaited Mazda CX-5 diesel has been continually delayed:

Meantime, the head of R&D for Mercedes-Benz cars, Ola Källenius, told journalists at last week’s Detroit motor show that the German car-maker will abandon plans to introduce diesel passenger cars in the US, after more than two years of internal debate and discussions with the EPA.
He said diesel vehicles account for just three per cent of the brand’s sales, and that “diesel doesn’t fit into our portfolio in the US”.


While BMW sells diesel 3 Series and X5 models in the US, where Chevrolet has a diesel Cruze and Ranger Rover and Jaguar XE diesels account for up to 15 per cent of JLR’s sales, the only diesel Mercedes-Benz model there will be the Sprinter van.


Mercedes delayed plans to sell diesel versions of its C-Class sedan and GLC-Class crossover after the US Department of Justice asked Daimler to check its diesel certification process in early 2016.
A year after Mercedes later asked the EPA to certify its MY2017 diesel Mercedes vehicles for sale in the US, it seems the company has given up trying.


After the EPA investigation into Fiat Chrysler’s diesel emissions, Mercedes last year said that “functionalities that are common in diesel vehicles” were being classed as “undisclosed Auxiliary Emission Control Devices and potentially impermissible”.
It seems the US EPA’s tough stance on diesel cars has led Mercedes to deem unviable the investment required to make them emissions compliant in the US, especially given the limited sales volume.
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Old January 24th, 2018, 15:03   #2
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It's a shame, but ultimately I think the EPA probably couldn't be happier regulating diesels out of existence in the US. When going from the US Tier 1 limits to Tier 2 limits, the EPA tightened up the NOx requirement to literally 1/20 of the previous limit, while it left the CO levels the same as before. They have been trying to regulate diesel to death by design, IMO.



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Old January 24th, 2018, 16:38   #3
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Dang! Just as stations started adding diesel pumps all over the place. Now they will start drying up again. At least I got my new 2015 Beetle. It should be unique for quite some time.
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Old January 24th, 2018, 17:55   #4
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I should have left my TDI unmodified to spite the EPA.
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Old January 24th, 2018, 19:03   #5
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It would be nice to blame the EPA for the end of diesels in the US (and I'm not a fan of the EPA), but there are other factors that might be more important:

1. World automobile markets moving away from diesel. Europe is likely to reduce or end its diesel tax incentives in the wake of Dieselgate and other emission-related issues, significantly dropping sales in the world’s biggest diesel market. China is moving toward electric as a solution to urban smog. Japan loves gasoline hybrids. Diesel passenger cars are a very small percentage of the U.S. market. All this means that diesel's a tough sell for companies such as Mercedes, and they don't want to spend valuable marketing dollars for a few thousand vehicles, even if EPA approved them.

2. The big research dollars are going toward electric, including batteries. The shakeout has begun: car companies can’t afford to sell gassers, diesels, hybrids, and battery electrics (and possibly fuel-cell electrics) at the same time. Given the emissions challenges, limited consumer acceptance in major markets except Europe, and the higher cost of manufacture in comparison to gas engines (important in emerging markets), diesels are the logical choice to be cut back or eliminated.

3. For passenger car applications, diesel’s advantages over gas engines have been reduced over the past 8-10 years. When VW introduced its new generation of TDIs in 2009, the engines were light-years better than VW’s unrefined 2.5L gasser. But with turbocharged, direct-injection gasoline engines becoming the norm, I’m not sure that diesel is really that much better for the vast majority of drivers. Sure, I love the torque, but it seems a number of people on this forum have sold back their TDIs and bought GTIs for a real performance car experience. You’ll take a mpg hit, but as long as gas prices stay where they are, it’s affordable unless you’re a long-distance driver. Long-distance drivers have hybrid options that may not be as fun to drive, but get great mileage.
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Old February 2nd, 2018, 10:02   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jibberjive View Post
It's a shame, but ultimately I think the EPA probably couldn't be happier regulating diesels out of existence in the US. When going from the US Tier 1 limits to Tier 2 limits, the EPA tightened up the NOx requirement to literally 1/20 of the previous limit, while it left the CO levels the same as before. They have been trying to regulate diesel to death by design, IMO. ]
It's not like the EPA or its employees benefit financially from regulating diesel emissions. They also don't spend money on a publicity campaigns to educate the public about the biology of breathing carcinogens.

I remember the outcry from ICE manufacturers about the death of their industry when the EPA moved to remove lead from gasoline.

The EPA is right in reducing Nox levels because cars don't regulate it well when driving in stop and go traffic in congested urban environments. Also, it's not like car manufacturers don't see the tier level changes coming years in advance.

I hope diesel doesn't go away because I have a financial interest to keep it - I have a 328d and some TDIs.
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Old February 2nd, 2018, 12:10   #7
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Here’s what I’m wondering: what has Land Rover/Jaguar figured out that the other makers have not figured out? In the high dollar market where a gasser still can’t really touch a diesel for moving a luxury SUV, they are sitting pretty now.
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Old February 2nd, 2018, 16:48   #8
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Chevrolet is selling diesel .... I bet Mazda and Hyundai will be rolling out diesel for real this time, not to make money of course, but to simply make fun of VW.
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Old February 2nd, 2018, 17:28   #9
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I'm starting to think that the diesel well may have been thoroughly poisoned. I really hope not, but if consumers don't choose to buy the new diesel offerings in significant numbers, many of those offerings could evaporate pretty fast.
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Old February 2nd, 2018, 19:32   #10
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With the exception of Europe, it's a niche market that's becoming even smaller. With the exception of specialized applications (e.g., delivery vehicles, heavy-duty pickups), it's simply not worth the cost for manufacturers to design entire drivetrains around low-volume vehicles. It's way too hard for manufacturers to keep up in electric, hybrid, and gasoline powertrains, not to mention the billions being spent on driverless technologies.
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Old February 11th, 2018, 09:51   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mythdoc View Post
Here’s what I’m wondering: what has Land Rover/Jaguar figured out that the other makers have not figured out? In the high dollar market where a gasser still can’t really touch a diesel for moving a luxury SUV, they are sitting pretty now.
They haven't figured out anything. They're making small passenger diesels that have the same emissions systems, ceteris paribus, as our Passat. Much easier to accomplish in cars with stickers twice that of our VWs, too. We could pay cash for a Jaguar Type F or other car in that price range, but we won't spend that kind of money on a car.
That being said, I agree with a large part of "CHawk"'s post above, in that I also think small passenger diesels are dead going forward, at least in the U.S.
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Old February 11th, 2018, 11:54   #12
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If it's true (and I'm not convinced) it's a shame if Mercedes gives up on diesel in North America. For decades they were the go-to brand for high quality diesel vehicles. Twenty-five years after it was built my '93 300D is still a pleasure to drive.

In the meantime, Jaguar (mentioned above) and BMW are staying in the market. BMW just announced its new generation 540d for the US in 2018. Ford is introducing the Transit Connect diesel, and GM has the Equinox/Terrain and Cruze diesels. In 2019 all of the big three will have half ton diesel pickups.

To say the market is a bit confusing is an understatement, when you can buy a Land-Rover diesel but not a Mercedes. Odd.
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Old February 11th, 2018, 12:27   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightflyer1 View Post
Dang! Just as stations started adding diesel pumps all over the place. Now they will start drying up again. At least I got my new 2015 Beetle. It should be unique for quite some time.
I wouldn't worry about the pumps disappearing, they still make diesel trucks.
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Old February 11th, 2018, 13:28   #14
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Or just remove the EPA stuff and see how much better it runs. I have a 2011 Jetta with a clean exhaust turbo back and a stage 2 tune and it's fun to drive and gets 48 to 51 mpg when I drive it. The wife is getting 38 but she also goes through tires every 10,000 miles and complains that it always "skidds when you start out". Yeah I know I've tried.
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Old February 13th, 2018, 10:18   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHawk View Post
You’ll take a mpg hit, but as long as gas prices stay where they are, it’s affordable unless you’re a long-distance driver. Long-distance drivers have hybrid options that may not be as fun to drive, but get great mileage.
This is written as if the only consideration regarding fuel efficiency is money, when scientists world-wide, and the planet itself (noticed any bizarre weather lately?), are warning us in no uncertain terms that we may be doing irreparable damage to our only planet with our idiotic behavior with cars and other energy sinks.
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