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Dieselgate - VW Group Emission Scandal Discussion around the VW Dieselgate Emissions scandal. Details and news updates can be viewed here: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=448336 This forum is a work in progress depending on requirements, usage, etc.

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Old January 30th, 2018, 15:56   #61
turbobrick240
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Yes, I hear what you're saying. I don't mean to indicate yourself in particular in my comment. I was attempting to refer to the numerous individuals online who have commented on different news articles because animal testing was involved. I never saw so many people commenting on Dieselgate until it involved the lab animal testing.

The test results stand independent of the conclusions drawn as to whether Clean Diesel on the road is a real thing or a good thing or not. The test results were likely gathered and logged in accordance with the standards of these sorts of studies. The results would have been real and good. Any conclusions drawn from the study as to how beneficial or neutral VW TDIs were to the health of animals and humans would have been what was scrutinized and found lacking.
The study was worthless, invalid, and therefore unethical . It wasn't published- would've, could've, should've doesn't change the fact that the data is worthless. The German auto manufacturers themselves are using adjectives like abhorrent, abominable, disgusting, etc. to describe the study they commissioned. No self respecting scientist would want anything to do with that fraudulent study.
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Old January 30th, 2018, 16:26   #62
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The study was worthless, invalid, and therefore unethical . It wasn't published- would've, could've, should've doesn't change the fact that the data is worthless. The German auto manufacturers themselves are using adjectives like abhorrent, abominable, disgusting, etc. to describe the study they commissioned. No self respecting scientist would want anything to do with that fraudulent study.
Yes, of course it wasn't published. The manipulated variable made it so that correct conclusions could not be made. You're getting some things mixed up, however:

1) Reality is yet reality. The observations recorded in the study were real and therefore had inherent worth.

2) The study was judged to be in accordance with ethics prior to the beginning, and then never repudiated by the oversight bodies. The undisclosed defeat device would not per se have rendered the judgment of ethical protocols void.

3) The study was not fraudulent. You said yourself it was not published, so fraud is not even under consideration.

4) Marketing language is often rhetorical. Even if the auto makers are now attempting to distance themselves from the study or distance themselves from VW, the language has no impact on the worth, ethics or reality observed in the study.
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Old January 30th, 2018, 16:56   #63
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Yes, of course it wasn't published. The manipulated variable made it so that correct conclusions could not be made. You're getting some things mixed up, however:



4) Marketing language is often rhetorical. Even if the auto makers are now attempting to distance themselves from the study or distance themselves from VW, the language has no impact on the worth, ethics or reality observed in the study.
The fact that the study is invalid is what makes the data useless. It's also questionable how impartial Lovelace Respiratory Research was given how much access VW was allowed during the study, and how VW was allowed to set up the auto dyno apparatus.
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Old January 30th, 2018, 19:23   #64
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The fact that the study is invalid is what makes the data useless. It's also questionable how impartial Lovelace Respiratory Research was given how much access VW was allowed during the study, and how VW was allowed to set up the auto dyno apparatus.
I hear ya. I am glad someone made this documentary. I just wish it were less inflammatory and biased. It was nice that someone took all the time to interview people with inside knowledge of all the doings and goings on and compile it in one place.
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Old January 31st, 2018, 01:02   #65
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One very interesting point that was simply made in passing: Dr. Ayala, Deputy Director of CARB claimed during the documentary interview that CARB was conducting emissions testing on and correspondence with VW regarding TDI Clean Diesels for 60 months. To my recollection he said it while conveying the information that CARB kept finding that the TDIs being tested failed to meet the emissions levels they certified with the EPA.

60 months. That's five years. That information really does not conform with CARB beginning testing and correspondence with VW in 2014 as a result of the U of WV study. The EPA Notice of Violation of the CAA was submitted to VW in Sept. 2015. If you roll the clock back 60 months, that's 2010. So VW was snowing CARB since 2010? and Why would CARB put up with that?

-- Nicole
Dr. Ayala said 16 months, not 60. So the 2014 timeline is correct.
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Old January 31st, 2018, 01:35   #66
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Um...facts or propaganda that VW lied again and again to the regulators to cover up their brazen disregard for our national laws? And all for a few dollars per car, and a few more dollars in holding down warranty payouts. They could have legally solved every challenge presented by the emissions regulations, but in case after case, they chose not to.

.
VW aren't saints but also put blame where its due, the others Automakers sure as hell aren't Angels either.
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Old January 31st, 2018, 03:39   #67
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VW aren't saints but also put blame where its due, the others Automakers sure as hell aren't Angels either.

But the subject under discussion in the documentary (and this thread) is Dieselgate, which means VW. It doesn't somehow validate VW, or lessen their offense, to say someone else broke the same law. That would be the same thing as saying that the mass murder committed by Germany in WWII is somehow less criminal if we consider those committed by Turkey in WWI, the Soviet Union, China, or Cambodia.
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Old January 31st, 2018, 05:56   #68
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Dr. Ayala said 16 months, not 60. So the 2014 timeline is correct.
I heard 60, and the subtitles read 60. It did not sound like 16 to me. I am not arguing what you heard, just telling you what I heard.
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Old January 31st, 2018, 09:54   #69
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I heard 60, and the subtitles read 60. It did not sound like 16 to me. I am not arguing what you heard, just telling you what I heard.
Subtitles are often wrong. It does sound like 60 because of his accent, but if you replay it and listen closely you will see he says 16.
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Old January 31st, 2018, 10:45   #70
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It sounds like there was still pressure to publish the junk science study in 2017. VW says LRRI wanted it published, and LRRI says it was VW pushing for publication. Personally, I think they're both as dirty as the air they were forcing upon the test subjects. Jake McDonald of LRRI claims he was unaware of the VW emissions scandal until very recently (sometime in 2017). Either he's the worlds dumbest scientist, or he's full of horsesh!t. I smell a steaming pile of it.
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Old January 31st, 2018, 11:27   #71
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I never saw so many people commenting on Dieselgate until it involved the lab animal testing.
Then you must have missed the whole dieselgate thread.

As a scientist, I understand the time and need for live animal testing. It just the hype of the show that have sensationalized this topic out of proportion. Where I went to college, we had a rat lab that bred rats to be susceptible to different health aliments. Need to test for tumors on kidneys? We have a rat for you! Is that ethical? It really depends on your overall beliefs on animal testing. You summed it all up in post 62.
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Old January 31st, 2018, 11:35   #72
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But the subject under discussion in the documentary (and this thread) is Dieselgate, which means VW. It doesn't somehow validate VW, or lessen their offense, to say someone else broke the same law. That would be the same thing as saying that the mass murder committed by Germany in WWII is somehow less criminal if we consider those committed by Turkey in WWI, the Soviet Union, China, or Cambodia.
However, the study was also funded by BMW and Daimler. All of these companies have been involved at some point with what finally ended up as VW's dieselgate. We can't exclude them from the discussion just because VW made the ultimate decision to not use the co-developed engineering.
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Old January 31st, 2018, 18:29   #73
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Then you must have missed the whole dieselgate thread.

As a scientist, I understand the time and need for live animal testing. It just the hype of the show that have sensationalized this topic out of proportion. Where I went to college, we had a rat lab that bred rats to be susceptible to different health aliments. Need to test for tumors on kidneys? We have a rat for you! Is that ethical? It really depends on your overall beliefs on animal testing. You summed it all up in post 62.
I get where you're coming from, but I didn't miss the Dieselgate thread. I readily admit that there were a number of posters in this forum and others discussing Dieselgate, but I do not remember there being the same stir on the internet in general, as a few days ago regarding the NOx testing on NHPs. It seemed most of the discussion of Dieselgate as far as the implications of the undisclosed emissions system defeat device was isolated to the few TDI forums there are online.
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Old January 31st, 2018, 18:45   #74
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Subtitles are often wrong. It does sound like 60 because of his accent, but if you replay it and listen closely you will see he says 16.
I went back as you suggested and listened to Dr. Ayala, several times, at 44:54 in the Hard NOx documentary and I cannot read "16" on his lips or hear "16" in the audio. I'm not reporting back to be argumentative, just letting you know is all.
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Old January 31st, 2018, 19:50   #75
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I get where you're coming from, but I didn't miss the Dieselgate thread. I readily admit that there were a number of posters in this forum and others discussing Dieselgate, but I do not remember there being the same stir on the internet in general, as a few days ago regarding the NOx testing on NHPs. It seemed most of the discussion of Dieselgate as far as the implications of the undisclosed emissions system defeat device was isolated to the few TDI forums there are online.
You must not be an avid Jalopnik reader. Can't blame you- some of the articles are garbage. This one on the LRRI study isn't too bad. Read the comment section if you really want a laugh or two:

https://jalopnik.com/ten-cartoon-wat...n-s-1822432802
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