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Dieselgate - VW Group Emission Scandal Discussion around the VW Dieselgate Emissions scandal. Details and news updates can be viewed here: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=448336 This forum is a work in progress depending on requirements, usage, etc.

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Old January 29th, 2018, 18:20   #46
turbobrick240
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Originally Posted by Miss_Athanatos View Post
I don't see how it's junk science to bombard a primate with NOx from two different diesel engines to see if the different concentrations make a difference in health of the animals. It's a bit hyperbolic and misleading to use the term "gas chambers" regarding this study simply because it's VW funding the study in order to taint a reader's interpretation with images of (censored name of a German fiend). Besides that, other diesel auto makers have done similar studies with particulate matter and NOx from diesel engine emissions on humans. To my recollection, they found only people who were fat or already had health problems were ill-affected during the study.
It was a bogus study, much like most all of the "research" performed by Mr. Mengele. Just a cruelty inflicted unnecessarily, and without any benefit to society.
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Old January 29th, 2018, 21:43   #47
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You should watch the video before commenting. VW exec's were intimately involved with the bogus primate research.
I've read numerous articles about the research. I also have things to say about the likelihood or extent to which executives would be "involved" in a research project but I'll save it for after the documentary if that's in fact what this is and not just re-enacted drama.
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It was a bogus study, much like most all of the "research" performed by Mr. Mengele. Just a cruelty inflicted unnecessarily, and without any benefit to society.
Now you're just spouting incendiary nonsense.
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Old January 29th, 2018, 22:18   #48
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Well, I don't consider fumigating monkeys with diesel exhaust from a vehicle manipulated on a VW supplied dynomometer in order to show fraudulent emission results to be real science. The head researcher who unwittingly(?) performed the bogus study agrees.
I don't care if they were nasty, people biting, disease riddled monkeys or not. That sort of abomination of science is beyond unethical, it's downright sick.

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/01/2...ww.google.com/

http://money.cnn.com/2018/01/29/inve...sel/index.html

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Old January 29th, 2018, 22:54   #49
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Most of what you are saying is inaccurate and the rest is subjective.

Having just watched the beginning and last 15 minutes (where the documentary links VW to ****** and then sandwiches the content with alluding to **** gas chambers...huzzah!) discussion about the study (and I already read numerous articles regarding the study previously), the executives did not have "intimate" involvement. They had "limited" involvement in the form of an executive authorizing the purchase of a dyno and a different executive delivering the tested Beetle, none of which amounts to the implication of your statements that they were somehow directly involved in conducting NOx testing on non-human primates as if executives playing researchers in white lab coats were doctoring results.

Instead, that's standard operating procedure when a trade group commissions a research team to conduct research on its behalf. None of the research could have been conducted on living animals without institutional review. I sit on an Institutional Review Board (IRB) at my university where I represent the interests of vulnerable subjects (prisoners, juvenile delinquents, and other justice affected humans, etc.) but universities also have an Institutional Animal Care and Use Committee that serves a similar purpose when approving testing on animals. In those discussions, we have to weigh the value of the research against the rights of (and possible harm to) the participants before approving a protocol. If we don't approve it, the research can't be conducted. If research is conducted without approval, it can't be published in a reputable journal.

Testing NOx impacts on primates is arguably a worthy endeavor unless one is flatly opposed to animal research. The issue that arose, and the one the lead researcher was opposed to, was that the study design involved testing a manipulated vehicle. That is, the results are important but they don't have scientific validity--they don't tell us anything about "clean diesel" as it was sold to the public. I assume he didn't want to release the study because he didn't want his research being used to promote clean diesel that wasn't actually clean, but all we *know* is that he refused to publish his findings once he found out an independent variable had been manipulated.

Making comparisons to **** gas chambers and inhumane torture gussied up as research is simply an incendiary, rhetorical device in my opinion. The use of non-humans in research is a hotly debated topic so I won't fault one's personal opinion about that aspect. As it sits, however, the problem with the study was the fact that VW manipulated a variable which seems distinct from your objections to it. Regardless, VW's role in the study was to fund it, provide the tools and vehicles to test, and then monitor the results. They didn't have anything to do with the study itself in the way that is being implied in this discussion, ie, personally gassing monkeys.

It's also important to note the differences between perspectives regarding animal research among Germans versus those same issues among Americans (Germans staunchly opposed to it with strict laws/guidelines controlling it), which is likely why they commissioned a US research lab to conduct the experiment.

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Old January 29th, 2018, 23:15   #50
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I won't waste any more of my time on this. I'll just say that any real scientist with any sense of ethics would be disturbed by this study. And I'm not opposed to animal research when it is conducted in an ethical manner for a just cause.
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Old January 29th, 2018, 23:44   #51
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I won't waste any more of my time on this. I'll just say that any real scientist with any sense of ethics would be disturbed by this study. And I'm not opposed to animal research when it is conducted in an ethical manner for a just cause.
You aren't wasting your time so much as wasting mine.

I am a "real" scientist and a deciding member of an institutional review board approving/disapproving studies according to current legal and ethical principles.

You, on the other hand, continue to commit logical fallacies (the latest being a No True Scotsman) and hinge your argument on subjective premises (what constitutes "just cause?") cloaked in objective terminology.

If you think that your position of, "VW started from N***s and they ended up as N***s" is anything other than argumentative and inflammatory without adding anything to the conversation, you and I won't be able to come to some sort of agreement.

I wasn't even trying to give you a hard time, but the problem is you are conflating three separate points and I think the documentary does a disservice by encouraging that.

There are three points:
1. VW manipulated the testing variables, rendering the test invalid
2. This study involved animal testing. Specifically, gassed monkeys which is reminiscent of point #3.
3. VW has a particular history that Germany has difficulty handling/acknowledging.

I agree with #1, #2 is problematic for some but not all people, and the reason it's a big deal is less about the testing procedure and more to do with point #3, which is what I am objecting to.

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Old January 30th, 2018, 02:51   #52
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The recent revelations around this pseudo scientific, perversion of science animal experimentation have cemented one thing in my mind- I will not purchase another new VW group auto. The cars may be great, but the corporate culture is deranged, and I will not support them economically.

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Old January 30th, 2018, 06:37   #53
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^^I feel the same way. I need to feel good about how I spend my little amount of consumer dollars. The monkey experiment is just another reminder that the corporate culture of VW group was indeed deranged, as you put it. But I also “earned” the apology money, the extended warranty, and the other features of the settlement, and I intend to make use of them. After the Q5, it is hard to imagine having another VW company vehicle.

If you have a chance, watch the other episodes in the Dirty Money series. Whether it is payday lending, drug companies ratcheting up the prices of drugs by a factor of ten or a hundred times, etc, these episodes get into an area that is well worth considering because relatively poorly appreciated by our society: 1) plenty of things that are legal are still wrong to do; 2) forgiveness instead of permission is not really a viable basis for society, and other observations of this type.
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Old January 30th, 2018, 07:58   #54
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I think what bizzle is saying here is accurate. There's a lot of hyperbolic reaction going on over the experimentation on the NHPs. I don't have any idea how anyone would get IACUC approval for study protocols if the experiment included "gassing" the NHPs with diesel exhaust, much less get the study published afterward. All this moral outrage against VW over this primate testing is so misplaced.

What is especially interesting is that people are more morally outraged over a legitimate animal study than they are/were over the widespread fraud committed by VW. Not many seem particularly concerned that VW isn't going to have to answer for the fraud either, since everyone's been blinded by the EPA settlement. Business as usual, eh?
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Old January 30th, 2018, 08:22   #55
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From the information conveyed in the documentary, the emissions system would have been reducing the NOx as it properly should during the study, because they had the Beetle used run on a dyno (to the best of my recollection).
The Beetle on the dyno in the "Hard NOx" flick was a 1999 or 2000 model.
I thought they said they tested a 2013, no?

If that's the case, the mock-up in the video was not even close to accurate.
I'm betting the monkeys in glass boxes with pure exhaust pumped directly to them was a bit of a stretch, too.
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Old January 30th, 2018, 09:00   #56
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I think the monkeys would rather have been doing something else.
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Old January 30th, 2018, 14:00   #57
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What is especially interesting is that people are more morally outraged over a legitimate animal study than they are/were over the widespread fraud committed by VW. Not many seem particularly concerned that VW isn't going to have to answer for the fraud either, since everyone's been blinded by the EPA settlement. Business as usual, eh?
The monkey experiment does not outrage me *more* than the fraud. They are separate instances of the same mentality: that “a little cheating” is just how we do business these days. The monkey test *might* have been justifiable if the test was not rigged (since the Beetle was on a dyno). But the test was rigged, so the monkeys breathed Ford F-250 exhaust for no scientific reason but a fake result. That is cynical and heartless, but not *more* cynical and heartless than defrauding their own customers and an entire world’s worth of air breathers.
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Old January 30th, 2018, 14:34   #58
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The Beetle on the dyno in the "Hard NOx" flick was a 1999 or 2000 model.
I thought they said they tested a 2013, no?

If that's the case, the mock-up in the video was not even close to accurate.
I'm betting the monkeys in glass boxes with pure exhaust pumped directly to them was a bit of a stretch, too.
Yeah, that dramatization was just designed to piss people off at VW.
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Old January 30th, 2018, 14:46   #59
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The monkey experiment does not outrage me *more* than the fraud. They are separate instances of the same mentality: that “a little cheating” is just how we do business these days. The monkey test *might* have been justifiable if the test was not rigged (since the Beetle was on a dyno). But the test was rigged, so the monkeys breathed Ford F-250 exhaust for no scientific reason but a fake result. That is cynical and heartless, but not *more* cynical and heartless than defrauding their own customers and an entire world’s worth of air breathers.
Yes, I hear what you're saying. I don't mean to indicate yourself in particular in my comment. I was attempting to refer to the numerous individuals online who have commented on different news articles because animal testing was involved. I never saw so many people commenting on Dieselgate until it involved the lab animal testing.

The test results stand independent of the conclusions drawn as to whether Clean Diesel on the road is a real thing or a good thing or not. The test results were likely gathered and logged in accordance with the standards of these sorts of studies. The results would have been real and good. Any conclusions drawn from the study as to how beneficial or neutral VW TDIs were to the health of animals and humans would have been what was scrutinized and found lacking.
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Old January 30th, 2018, 15:28   #60
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The recent revelations around this pseudo scientific, perversion of science animal experimentation
Let alone start in on the cosmetic industry.
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