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Dieselgate - VW Group Emission Scandal Discussion around the VW Dieselgate Emissions scandal. Details and news updates can be viewed here: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=448336 This forum is a work in progress depending on requirements, usage, etc.

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Old January 29th, 2018, 09:17   #31
Miss_Athanatos
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I've not watched the episode yet but find the monkey reference a little disturbing just because of how it appears to have been set up. However, after reading up a little on it, it appears that it was well sanctioned and approved by the car manufacturers and the scientific bodies that should have all stood up and walked away from the proposal of the test. Here's the CNN article link: http://money.cnn.com/2018/01/29/inve...sel/index.html
The dramatization they did for the documentary is misleading. I belong to an organization called AALAS (American Association for Laboratory Animal Science), and that sort of setup shown is not what you would see in an animal study. Typical animal handling used in labs was not observed. NHPs usually have terrible viruses and a propensity to bite people, making serious protective gear necessary for moving and handling the NHPs.

There's nothing essentially wrong with testing the Clean Diesel emissions against the ordinary diesel emissions by making the NHPs breathe the NOx as it comes out of the refining vessel. What was wrong with the study was that Clean Diesel technology did not work on the road, so it was moot as to whether the effects were more or less harmful than ordinary diesel emissions.

Also, I would like to point out that none of the NHPs were reported to have died during the experiment or been euthanized after the experiment...indicating that no great measurable ill effect was suffered by the NHPs due to the study.
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Old January 29th, 2018, 10:01   #32
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Oh, no doubt, no doubt. But the science allegedly quantifying the effects of second hand smoke into numbers of casualties was deeply flawed. A second wrong not making a right. Similar to this diesel case.
OK, now I see your point and agree.
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Old January 29th, 2018, 10:08   #33
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Yes, that could possibly have been what was going on and my timeline could be wrong. However, that explanation does not reconcile in the least to the context of the interview with Dr. Ayala in the documentary. You can't have Dr. Ayala say they were testing and corresponding on the Clean Diesels (2009+ model years) for 60 months and then roll that testing back onto the 1.9/2.0 L 4 cyl. DIs VW put on the market starting in 1995, since those did not have an aux system to limit NOx. If you're going to bump the 60 mos. back to 2007 when the emissions standards were restricted further, that still doesn't make sense in the context, since again, the TDIs didn't have aux systems to limit NOx until 2009.
I'm not referring to the earlier diesels. You keep talking about the timeline and starting the testing from when the cars were released to the public but the 2009 "clean diesels" were undergoing testing for years before they were released.
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Old January 29th, 2018, 11:06   #34
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Also, weren't they commercially available in mid 08?
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Old January 29th, 2018, 11:25   #35
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I don't have access to the video. Does anyone know which mode was the engine emission system running in the monkey test? Cheat mode or treadmill mode?
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Old January 29th, 2018, 12:11   #36
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I'm not referring to the earlier diesels. You keep talking about the timeline and starting the testing from when the cars were released to the public but the 2009 "clean diesels" were undergoing testing for years before they were released.
Yes, I agree with you about testing preceding the release of the 2009 model year TDIs. Thanks for clearing up the confusion. I did not get what you meant to convey with your original comment. For clarity, the reason I put the start of the timeline after the public release of the 2009 model year was because that seemed to correspond better to Dr. Ayala's comments than any other interpretation. I did not intend my comment to come across as argumentative with you.
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Old January 29th, 2018, 12:13   #37
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I don't have access to the video. Does anyone know which mode was the engine emission system running in the monkey test? Cheat mode or treadmill mode?
From the information conveyed in the documentary, the emissions system would have been reducing the NOx as it properly should during the study, because they had the Beetle used run on a dyno (to the best of my recollection).
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Old January 29th, 2018, 12:15   #38
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Also, weren't they commercially available in mid 08?
I imagine they were available in 2008. Typically car makers introduce new model years starting some time in the previous year...so it's reasonable to assume that the 2009 model year would have been released to the public in 2008.
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Old January 29th, 2018, 12:16   #39
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Damn Germans just aren't happy unless they are gassing something.
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Old January 29th, 2018, 14:30   #40
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I did not intend my comment to come across as argumentative with you.
I didn't interpret you as being argumentative. I haven't had a chance to watch the documentary, by the way, so I'm just speculating about what the timeline might be.
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Old January 29th, 2018, 15:08   #41
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Damn Germans just aren't happy unless they are gassing something.

I can't understand how the VW executives didn't realize how horrible the optics of putting primates in gas chambers would be. Just sadistic, junk science as far as I'm concerned.
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Old January 29th, 2018, 17:17   #42
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I didn't interpret you as being argumentative. I haven't had a chance to watch the documentary, by the way, so I'm just speculating about what the timeline might be.
If you get a chance to watch it, come back and let me know what you think, tho. I am truly interested.
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Old January 29th, 2018, 17:20   #43
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I can't understand how the VW executives didn't realize how horrible the optics of putting primates in gas chambers would be. Just sadistic, junk science as far as I'm concerned.
They didn't consider it because "they" didn't do the research. The car manufacturers spent research dollars toward scientists conducting research and this was but one research project those researchers did with some of the funding.

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If you get a chance to watch it, come back and let me know what you think, tho. I am truly interested.
I'll probably watch it tonight or tomorrow.
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Old January 29th, 2018, 17:22   #44
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I can't understand how the VW executives didn't realize how horrible the optics of putting primates in gas chambers would be. Just sadistic, junk science as far as I'm concerned.
I don't see how it's junk science to bombard a primate with NOx from two different diesel engines to see if the different concentrations make a difference in health of the animals. It's a bit hyperbolic and misleading to use the term "gas chambers" regarding this study simply because it's VW funding the study in order to taint a reader's interpretation with images of (censored name of a German fiend). Besides that, other diesel auto makers have done similar studies with particulate matter and NOx from diesel engine emissions on humans. To my recollection, they found only people who were fat or already had health problems were ill-affected during the study.
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Old January 29th, 2018, 18:14   #45
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They didn't consider it because "they" didn't do the research. The car manufacturers spent research dollars toward scientists conducting research and this was but one research project those researchers did with some of the funding.


I'll probably watch it tonight or tomorrow.
You should watch the video before commenting. VW exec's were intimately involved with the bogus primate research.
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