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Dieselgate - VW Group Emission Scandal Discussion around the VW Dieselgate Emissions scandal. Details and news updates can be viewed here: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=448336 This forum is a work in progress depending on requirements, usage, etc.

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Old January 27th, 2018, 11:13   #16
Miss_Athanatos
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One very interesting point that was simply made in passing: Dr. Ayala, Deputy Director of CARB claimed during the documentary interview that CARB was conducting emissions testing on and correspondence with VW regarding TDI Clean Diesels for 60 months. To my recollection he said it while conveying the information that CARB kept finding that the TDIs being tested failed to meet the emissions levels they certified with the EPA.

60 months. That's five years. That information really does not conform with CARB beginning testing and correspondence with VW in 2014 as a result of the U of WV study. The EPA Notice of Violation of the CAA was submitted to VW in Sept. 2015. If you roll the clock back 60 months, that's 2010. So VW was snowing CARB since 2010? and Why would CARB put up with that?

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Old January 27th, 2018, 11:17   #17
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<snip> If you roll the clock back 60 months, that's 2010. So VW was snowing CARB since 2010? and Why would CARB put up with that?

-- Nicole
Put up with it? I'm amazed that CARB would admit it!
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Old January 27th, 2018, 11:51   #18
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Put up with it? I'm amazed that CARB would admit it!
I was trying to imply exactly what you're pointing out. I got the sense (and this is totally subjective interpretation) that the reason Dr. Ayala got so indignant with Stuart Johnson about the undisclosed defeat device once Stuart Johnson revealed the defeat device was that there may have been? good reason to believe from very near the beginning of the testing that there was an undisclosed defeat device and that the lengthy testing and correspondence period would reflect badly on CARB.
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Old January 27th, 2018, 18:18   #19
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It's not that it would reflect poorly on CARB but rather that, despite conspiracy theories to the contrary, CARB and EPA are not in the business to shut vehicle sales down. They are working with, not against, the car manufacturers and this should be evident by the fact that they allow the manufacturers to self-regulate for the most part.

So when something like failed tests occur, the first step is to figure out what is going on. If VW is shrugging their shoulders and saying they don't know what is wrong with their components but that they just aren't cleaning up to the levels the engineers designed them to, but then it turns out that was a lie all along that's going to anger most anyone.

That said, I think you are looking at the wrong timeline. It's probably referring to the time between when VW diesels stopped being sold under the old rules and when Clean Diesels were launched in the USA under the newest regs.
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Old January 28th, 2018, 06:18   #20
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I was trying to imply exactly what you're pointing out. <snip> good reason to believe from very near the beginning of the testing that there was an undisclosed defeat device and that the lengthy testing and correspondence period would reflect badly on CARB.
This was one of the few amusing segments in the documentary, when Mr.CARB talks about how they were just trying to give VW the benefit of the doubt (for FIVE YEARS), but in all that time what is probably the largest and best equipped vehicle emissions regulatory agency on the planet was unable to put together a testing regime that produced a smoking gun, which was finally left to a contractor at WVU. Yep, pretty embarrassing........
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Old January 28th, 2018, 07:47   #21
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.......ambivalence would best describe my 'dieselgate' view....................

Add on my pondering the accuracy and merit of EPA's pollution control standards......

........and I begin to think of a long ago James Coburn, Lee Remick film where Burgess Meredith indicates "Yes, murder IS wrong - - - but it's just not THAT wrong..............."

It may be apparent that my 2013 JSW TDI 6M - even with its' HPFP/DPF concerns - is engendering fond recollection within my memory banks..................

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Old January 28th, 2018, 08:19   #22
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This was one of the few amusing segments in the documentary, when Mr.CARB talks about how they were just trying to give VW the benefit of the doubt (for FIVE YEARS), but in all that time what is probably the largest and best equipped vehicle emissions regulatory agency on the planet was unable to put together a testing regime that produced a smoking gun, which was finally left to a contractor at WVU. Yep, pretty embarrassing........
Yes, and my suspicions, of course, are based upon the assumption that in those five years they were conducting testing similar to the WVU study (on dyno, as well as on road). The context of that whole segment would make no sense otherwise, it seems to me.

So, I agree with you.
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Old January 28th, 2018, 08:35   #23
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It's not that it would reflect poorly on CARB but rather that, despite conspiracy theories to the contrary, CARB and EPA are not in the business to shut vehicle sales down. They are working with, not against, the car manufacturers and this should be evident by the fact that they allow the manufacturers to self-regulate for the most part.

So when something like failed tests occur, the first step is to figure out what is going on. If VW is shrugging their shoulders and saying they don't know what is wrong with their components but that they just aren't cleaning up to the levels the engineers designed them to, but then it turns out that was a lie all along that's going to anger most anyone.

That said, I think you are looking at the wrong timeline. It's probably referring to the time between when VW diesels stopped being sold under the old rules and when Clean Diesels were launched in the USA under the newest regs.
Yes, that could possibly have been what was going on and my timeline could be wrong. However, that explanation does not reconcile in the least to the context of the interview with Dr. Ayala in the documentary. You can't have Dr. Ayala say they were testing and corresponding on the Clean Diesels (2009+ model years) for 60 months and then roll that testing back onto the 1.9/2.0 L 4 cyl. DIs VW put on the market starting in 1995, since those did not have an aux system to limit NOx. If you're going to bump the 60 mos. back to 2007 when the emissions standards were restricted further, that still doesn't make sense in the context, since again, the TDIs didn't have aux systems to limit NOx until 2009.
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Old January 28th, 2018, 10:35   #24
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Of all the takeaways from the documentary, “what did CARB know and when did they know it” seems like small potatoes. The fixation with that aspect on the part of posters certainly says volumes about, well, nothing but their own fixed political views. Clap yourselves on the fanny, friends, you all agree that “you don’t trust the gubment. It sux.”

To return to an earlier observation, however, I think it is junk science to release a figure of “x many persons dying prematurely due to an increase of n in atmospheric nitrous dioxide levels.” There is no mathematical way to structure such a study to exclude other variables, other than the monkeys in the gas chamber type approach, which (laying aside the fact that it is culturally taboo) would have to be done over years to be representative. No, some academic being paid by a private organization just applied “guesswork” and arrived at a number. And even though I consider myself an environmentalist and a proponent of clean air, this type of junk science drives me up a wall. Same tactics as the anti-smoking crusaders used.
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Old January 28th, 2018, 10:40   #25
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They lost me in this "shockumentary" when they pulled a Godwin* less than five minutes in. This video contributed nothing to my understanding of Dieselgate.

*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
The reference to VW’s original ties to Adolph you-know-who are factual, but the fact that the documentary ended with VW paying to put monkeys in a gas chamber certainly created a nice symmetry. Too bad you don’t enjoy irony.
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Old January 28th, 2018, 10:56   #26
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<snip>Too bad you don’t enjoy irony.
My sense of irony must have been overwhelmed by my distaste for shlock journalism.....
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Old January 28th, 2018, 19:57   #27
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To return to an earlier observation, however, I think it is junk science to release a figure of “x many persons dying prematurely due to an increase of n in atmospheric nitrous dioxide levels.” There is no mathematical way to structure such a study to exclude other variables, other than the monkeys in the gas chamber type approach, which (laying aside the fact that it is culturally taboo) would have to be done over years to be representative. No, some academic being paid by a private organization just applied “guesswork” and arrived at a number. And even though I consider myself an environmentalist and a proponent of clean air, this type of junk science drives me up a wall. Same tactics as the anti-smoking crusaders used.
To my knowledge, if a person dies of respiratory illness or defect before what medical professionals have decided is the end of his life, it is typically classed as an NOx caused ozone-related death.

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature22086

That link will take you to an abstract for a study in which NOx emissions are related to human health. I personally think it is "guesswork", like you.
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Old January 29th, 2018, 06:53   #28
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The reference to VW’s original ties to Adolph you-know-who are factual, but the fact that the documentary ended with VW paying to put monkeys in a gas chamber certainly created a nice symmetry. Too bad you don’t enjoy irony.
I've not watched the episode yet but find the monkey reference a little disturbing just because of how it appears to have been set up. However, after reading up a little on it, it appears that it was well sanctioned and approved by the car manufacturers and the scientific bodies that should have all stood up and walked away from the proposal of the test. Here's the CNN article link: http://money.cnn.com/2018/01/29/inve...sel/index.html
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Old January 29th, 2018, 06:55   #29
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Of all the takeaways from the documentary, “what did CARB know and when did they know it” seems like small potatoes. The fixation with that aspect on the part of posters certainly says volumes about, well, nothing but their own fixed political views. Clap yourselves on the fanny, friends, you all agree that “you don’t trust the gubment. It sux.”

To return to an earlier observation, however, I think it is junk science to release a figure of “x many persons dying prematurely due to an increase of n in atmospheric nitrous dioxide levels.” There is no mathematical way to structure such a study to exclude other variables, other than the monkeys in the gas chamber type approach, which (laying aside the fact that it is culturally taboo) would have to be done over years to be representative. No, some academic being paid by a private organization just applied “guesswork” and arrived at a number. And even though I consider myself an environmentalist and a proponent of clean air, this type of junk science drives me up a wall. Same tactics as the anti-smoking crusaders used.
While I agree with your overall post, that last statement defeated the complete thought. As the child of a life long smoker, I can tell you that the health effects are real and the tobacco companies did some really nasty stuff to help create and feed addictions.
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Old January 29th, 2018, 07:38   #30
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While I agree with your overall post, that last statement defeated the complete thought. As the child of a life long smoker, I can tell you that the health effects are real and the tobacco companies did some really nasty stuff to help create and feed addictions.
Oh, no doubt, no doubt. But the science allegedly quantifying the effects of second hand smoke into numbers of casualties was deeply flawed. A second wrong not making a right. Similar to this diesel case.
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