Great idle low power

dubsix33

Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2017
Location
Midwest
TDI
2003 Jetta
2002 ALH 5 speed 300K. The car came in with a blown timing belt. The head was redone, the pistons had no damage, the engine was reassembled with a new timing kit, water pump, head gasket, and head bolts.
The intake was thoroughly cleaned, the EGR was deleted with a kit, the injector nozzles were ultrasonic cleaned, the cat had been deleted by the owner, and a new air filter was installed.
After getting the motor to fire back up, the injection pump timing was set, the injection quantity was verified to be good, vacuum from the pump is 22 and none of the lines are leaking (suspected bad ones were replaced). compression was checked and even on all cylinders (680 +/- 20).
The engine idles great and smooth but acceleration feels like there is no torque and coming upon a hill will keep the car from gaining any speed.
RPMs will rev up with no stutter easily, driving or parked.
Blocks 3/8/11 look good, I will post them shortly. Maf numbers move and get up over 900, all the requested and actuals are very close, etc.
I'm at a loss on what to suspect, but my gut tells me it's fueling (not enough).
Any help would be much appreciated.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Have the injectors properly tested by someone with the correct equipment.

I assume there are no DTCs?
 

wonneber

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 12, 2011
Location
Monroe, NY, USA
TDI
2014 Jetta Sportwagon,2003 Jetta 261K Sold but not forgotten
Blocks 3/8/11 look good, I will post them shortly. Maf numbers move and get up over 900, all the requested and actuals are very close, etc.
Did you go for a ride and log the boost numbers?
Maybe the turbo isn't getting the vacuum. Cracked hose from movement during the work, connected wrong, or such.

From the Ross-Tech site:
Group 011
Charge pressure control warm/full throttle/3rd gear @ 3000 RPM
Engine rpm
Specified MAP: 1850-1950
Actual MAP: 1700-2080
MAP Valve DC: 45-95
 

jokila

Vendor
Joined
Dec 3, 2004
Location
Houston, Texas
TDI
2003 Jetta GLS, Manual
2002 ALH 5 speed 300K. The car came in with a blown timing belt. The head was redone, the pistons had no damage, the engine was reassembled with a new timing kit, water pump, head gasket, and head bolts.
The intake was thoroughly cleaned, the EGR was deleted with a kit, the injector nozzles were ultrasonic cleaned, the cat had been deleted by the owner, and a new air filter was installed.
After getting the motor to fire back up, the injection pump timing was set, the injection quantity was verified to be good, vacuum from the pump is 22 and none of the lines are leaking (suspected bad ones were replaced). compression was checked and even on all cylinders (680 +/- 20).
The engine idles great and smooth but acceleration feels like there is no torque and coming upon a hill will keep the car from gaining any speed.
RPMs will rev up with no stutter easily, driving or parked.
Blocks 3/8/11 look good, I will post them shortly. Maf numbers move and get up over 900, all the requested and actuals are very close, etc.
I'm at a loss on what to suspect, but my gut tells me it's fueling (not enough).
Any help would be much appreciated.
Those are some mighty high compression numbers. I thought typical was in the 500 range. You are almost to 700.
 

dubsix33

Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2017
Location
Midwest
TDI
2003 Jetta
First of all, thanks for your replies. More info...... No codes, checked all the vacuum lines, turbo actuator moves freely, here are my logs going up a slight hill.
Engine Speed Air Mass Air Mass EGR Solenoid Torque Request Torque Limitation Boost Boost Charge Pressure
(G28) Specified Actual (N18) (Driver) via Speed / RPM Specified Actual (N75) Solenoid
/min mg/str mg/str % mg/str mg/str mbar mbar %
903 280 495 84.5 0 28.6 999.6 1020 24.7
903 280 495 84.5 0 28.6 999.6 1020 24.7
903 280 495 84.5 0 28.6 999.6 1020 24.7
903 275 505 84.5 0 28.6 999.6 1020 24.7
903 285 480 84.5 0 28.6 999.6 1020 24.7
1050 300 495 84.5 4 29.2 999.6 1020 24.7
966 550 530 80.9 9 29.4 1030.2 1040.4 24.7
882 845 510 4.8 18 28.8 1213.8 1050.6 24.7
1260 850 520 4.8 35.4 29 1540.2 1060.8 24.7
1743 795 590 4.8 40.8 34.8 1795.2 1142.4 24.7
2268 795 815 4.8 43.4 37.4 1948.2 1438.2 29.1
2793 775 910 4.8 38.8 36.4 1948.2 1907.4 54.6
2751 295 545 76.5 33.8 35.8 1693.2 2029.8 79.3
1890 705 565 50.2 12 36.4 1428 1101.6 44.6
2037 760 730 4.8 35.4 37.4 1948.2 1315.8 24.7
2268 775 850 4.8 38.2 36.8 1948.2 1642.2 40.2
2499 770 895 4.8 37.4 36.6 1948.2 1856.4 50.6
2688 775 915 4.8 37.2 36.2 1948.2 1968.6 54.6
2877 785 910 4.8 36.8 36 1948.2 2029.8 58.6
3045 790 880 4.8 36.4 35.8 1948.2 2050.2 62.6
3213 795 850 4.8 35.8 35.4 1948.2 1999.2 63.4
3381 805 810 4.8 35.6 35.2 1948.2 1938 62.6
3528 825 785 4.8 35.4 34.8 1948.2 1897.2 61
3654 850 790 4.8 34.8 34.2 1938 1887 61
3759 850 785 4.8 34.6 33.6 1927.8 1897.2 61.8
3843 850 780 4.8 34.4 33.2 1917.6 1897.2 62.2
3486 480 520 4.8 34.4 32.8 1764.6 1907.4 88.5
2478 795 595 4.8 25 35.4 1948.2 1173 24.7
2478 795 820 4.8 41.8 36.4 1948.2 1540.2 37.5
2478 795 880 4.8 41.8 36.4 1948.2 1866.6 50.6
2520 795 885 4.8 41.8 36.4 1948.2 1917.6 51.4
2541 795 880 4.8 41.6 36.4 1948.2 1938 51.4
2583 795 885 4.8 41.6 36.2 1948.2 1948.2 51.8
2625 795 890 4.8 41.4 36.2 1948.2 1958.4 52.6
2688 800 895 4.8 41.4 36.2 1948.2 1989 53.8
2751 800 885 4.8 41.2 36 1948.2 1999.2 55.8
2814 800 895 4.8 41 36 1948.2 2009.4 58.2
2856 800 870 4.8 40.8 35.8 1948.2 1999.2 59
2919 800 840 4.8 40.6 35.8 1948.2 1948.2 58.2
2982 805 840 4.8 40.6 35.8 1948.2 1927.8 57.4
3024 805 825 4.8 40.4 35.6 1948.2 1938 58.2
3087 805 830 4.8 40.2 35.6 1948.2 1907.4 56.6
3108 805 830 4.8 40.2 35.6 1948.2 1938 57
2142 275 510 84.5 0 35.6 1020 1193.4 59
756 1275 495 84.5 0 36.8 999.6 1081.2 41.8
903 280 480 84.5 0 28.4 999.6 1030.2 24.7
903 275 490 84.5 0 28.6 999.6 1020 24.7
903 280 475 84.5 0 28.6 999.6 1020 24.7
903 275 480 84.5 0 28.6 999.6 1020 24.7
903 275 495 84.5 0 28.6 999.6 1020 24.7
903 275 485 84.5 0 28.6 999.6 1020 24.7
903 280 485 84.5 0 28.6 999.6 1009.8 24.7
903 275 475 84.5 0 28.6 999.6 1020 24.7
903 280 475 84.5 0 28.6 999.6 1020 24.7
903 280 485 84.5 0 28.6 999.6 1020 24.7
903 280 490 84.5 0 28.6 999.6 1020 24.7
903 275 490 84.5 0 28.6 999.6 1020 24.7
903 280 485 84.5 0 28.6 999.6 1020 24.7
903 275 485 84.5 0 28.6 999.6 1020 24.7
903 275 485 84.5 0 28.6 999.6 1020 24.7
903 275 485 84.5 0 28.6 999.6 1020 24.7
903 275 495 84.5 0 28.6 999.6 1020 24.7
903 275 500 84.5 0 28.6 999.6 1020 24.7
903 275 480 84.5 0 28.6 999.6 1020 24.7
903 275 495 84.5 0 28.6 999.6 1020 24.7
903 275 480 84.5 0 28.6 999.6 1020 24.7
903 275 485 84.5 0 28.6 999.6 1020 24.7
903 275 495 84.5 0 28.6 999.6 1020 24.7
903 275 500 84.5 0 28.6 999.6 1020 24.7
903 275 490 84.5 0 28.6 999.6 1020 24.7
903 275 490 84.5 0 28.6 999.6 1020 24.7
903 275 480 84.5 0 28.6 999.6 1020 24.7
903 275 495 84.5 0 28.6 999.6 1020 24.7
 

dubsix33

Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2017
Location
Midwest
TDI
2003 Jetta
At 3003 rpm, specified mbar: 1948.2 ,actual mbar: 2050.2 ,N75 solenoid: 62.6.
Looks like the turbo is doing it's job.
 

wonneber

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 12, 2011
Location
Monroe, NY, USA
TDI
2014 Jetta Sportwagon,2003 Jetta 261K Sold but not forgotten
Looks like you are getting boost.
The air mass might be out of range a bit.
Your last numbers seem a bit high at idle.
From Ross-Tech:
Group 003 (EGR)
Engine rpm: 870 - 950
Air mass drawn in (specified): 230 - 370 mg/H
Air mass drawn in (actual): 230 - 370 mg/H
EGR vacuum solenoid duty cycle: 40 - 75 %
 

Enabled

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2013
Location
Houston, TX
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI Manual, BMW 328d SW
Looks like you are getting boost.
The air mass might be out of range a bit.
Your last numbers seem a bit high at idle.
From Ross-Tech:
Group 003 (EGR)
Engine rpm: 870 - 950
Air mass drawn in (specified): 230 - 370 mg/H
Air mass drawn in (actual): 230 - 370 mg/H
EGR vacuum solenoid duty cycle: 40 - 75 %
His maf is fine for egr delete.
This is a fueling issue, or clogged cat or something along the lines.
 

UhOh

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 24, 2014
Location
PNW
TDI
2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
Look at data point #14 (RPM 1890) onward. Seems like boost is doggy. It isn't until about 2688 RPM that boost is caught up with Requested. That's about 800 RPMs. Usually Actual should JUMP and spike a bit above Requested, and do so rather quickly (before then settling down).

MAF seems to be doing OK.

I'd tend to agree with Enabled, seems like fueling or perhaps a clogged CAT. Low-hanging fruit would be to check fuel draw from tank: perhaps run from a separate fuel container and see if that makes any difference. Clogged CAT would slow turbo spooling, yes? (I"m unfamiliar, but could kind of see this being the case.)

A great graphing tool is at malonetuning.com. Just take your data file and "drop" it on that page and it'll generate a graph. NOTE: normally I like to see data, but in this case I think a visual might help.
 

dubsix33

Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2017
Location
Midwest
TDI
2003 Jetta
I agree that fueling seems to be the issue since I have just about combed everything else. Even if the boost lags behind some, at WOT going up the hill, it would be caught up and the power would return to make the climb. It's not.
Like I said, also, the cat had been removed already.
Last night, I swapped out the injectors with another set and not much changed.
Finally got a code for insufficient EGR flow, which never came in with the other injectors, but that should not affect anything.
I would like to think that a plugged fuel filter or tank/lines issue would be more obvious at idle than at higher RPMs.
I will try running fuel out of a jug and see if that helps.
Thanks so far.
 

UhOh

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 24, 2014
Location
PNW
TDI
2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
I would like to think that a plugged fuel filter or tank/lines issue would be more obvious at idle than at higher RPMs.
I will try running fuel out of a jug and see if that helps.
Thanks so far.
Pump is pulling more fuel at higher RPMs, so any restriction in fuel flow is going to be more pronounced at higher RPMs.
 

dubsix33

Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2017
Location
Midwest
TDI
2003 Jetta
Wouldn't a fuel restriction cause stuttering or cut out? Pressure is right because the injectors are popping open but volume seems to be fixed, like the injectors are too small.
 

UhOh

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 24, 2014
Location
PNW
TDI
2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
Wouldn't a fuel restriction cause stuttering or cut out? Pressure is right because the injectors are popping open but volume seems to be fixed, like the injectors are too small.
Not really, if it's an insufficient flow: but if blockage it could.

"Injectors" are all the same size (except #3 injectors, which have the extra bits with the needle lift sensor). If you mean NOZZLES, then, yes, that's possible. But what would lead you to suspect that someone installed small nozzles? (only smaller ones one would likely encounter would be stockers from an automatic car [in to a manual]) Can't recall whether VCDS can tell you actual mg/str or not: I know it'll show what the ECU is asking for, but unsure if it can say what is actually being delivered (the smarter folks around here can answer this one). If the ECU has a tune and someone put in smaller nozzles than what the tune is expecting then that too, I figure, could mess things up.
 

dubsix33

Member
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Nov 2, 2017
Location
Midwest
TDI
2003 Jetta
I don't suspect that the nozzles or anything about the injectors is incorrect. I am referring to what the car feels like.
As for testing the injectors, I do agree it would be a good thing to do, but having swapped out injectors with a different set and getting the same results.... makes me want to look elsewhere first.
I have not had time to mess with it these past couple of days, but will try to get back to troubleshooting soon, so really looking for ideas at the moment.
Thanks to all for taking the time to assist this far.
 

dubsix33

Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2017
Location
Midwest
TDI
2003 Jetta
Installed a new filter to eliminate any possible restrictions there. Opened up the injection pump to look for broken pieces or gunk in the fuel and found nothing. Reset the injection quantity to 3.0. The engine starts right up, idles smooth as can be, revs right on up with no stutters, but still has no torque.
MAF numbers and boost numbers are good as previously posted, and even if they lag some at WOT, there is nothing.
Any ideas?
 

UhOh

Top Post Dawg
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Dec 24, 2014
Location
PNW
TDI
2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
Do you have VCDS? If not, then you're not going to resolve this without it OR without spending a LOT of your time.
 

dubsix33

Member
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Nov 2, 2017
Location
Midwest
TDI
2003 Jetta
Yes I have VagCom, this is how I have been logging runs and comparing the MAF numbers, boost pressures, etc.
The numbers I posted earlier are through VCDS, which really show nothing abnormal to me. This is why I am stumped and would like some ideas from someone with more experience as something I am overlooking.
 

UhOh

Top Post Dawg
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Dec 24, 2014
Location
PNW
TDI
2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
No idea how you're determining that torque is low. Are you familiar with these cars?

If all the numbers look good then maybe your "seat" needs to be adjusted?;)


What do you show for injector deviation?

What's your timing set at/to?
 

UhOh

Top Post Dawg
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Dec 24, 2014
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PNW
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2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
He could measure off a 1/4 mile on a road and do a speed test for this distance. :D
Yeah, was going to mention that. Ultragauges have a performance logging feature; I've used it a couple times just to see the differences in a couple of my cars. Now, however, I'm familiar enough with these cars that I can tell seat-of-the-pants whether one is running correctly or not.

All said, I cannot imagine how anyone could say that they really can't feel the torque from a well-operating ALH.
 

dubsix33

Member
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Nov 2, 2017
Location
Midwest
TDI
2003 Jetta
I have worked on these cars plenty to know what they should "feel" like. This is how I know that it is low on torque. Looking at the numbers logged for various parameters does not reveal the obvious faults that affect power on these engines so I asked for assistance.
Oilhammer seems to have got the best suggestion so far.
Switching between some injectors that were laying around (unknown condition) and monitoring Block 13, shows that the closer I get the numbers to 0.0mg/str, the more power is restored to the engine.
With the current combination of original and used injectors, this is the best it has felt yet, still not like it should.
1:-.05 2: -.07 3:.38 4:-.21 IQ: 3.2 Timing: 56
 

Franko6

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May 7, 2005
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Sw Missouri
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Jetta, 99, Silver`
There can be another issue with injectors that laid around for a long time, especially if your 'midwest location is in MN or IL. VEGGIE OIL MESSES WITH #3 LIFT NEEDLES.

If your lift needle is not working correctly, it doesn't matter how big your injectors or how well they are working, you are not going to get the proper fueling.

Worse, we have seen the #3 lift sensor gummed up with WVO and there is literally no chemical that will bust the hydrolyzed glycerine from the lift sensor before it melts the plastic plug out of the sensor. That stuff is impervious.

I would attempt to replace the #3 injector with a known good one.
 

indysoto

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2004
Location
Eugene, OR
Could it be that the belt is off a tooth? When you rev do you get hesitation and a nasty clack? That's what I did to mine my first tb change.. Verify everything where it supposed to be at TDC.
 

dubsix33

Member
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Nov 2, 2017
Location
Midwest
TDI
2003 Jetta
I think that if I was off a tooth I would not be able to use VagCom to set timing, as it would probably be off scale to far to see.
In the set of injectors I had around the #3 had a different plug and therefore not interchangeable.
Based on the musical injector experiment I ran with the used ones and the original ones, I do believe the injectors to be the issue. I will get them sent off and see what comes from that.
 

indysoto

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Joined
Mar 14, 2004
Location
Eugene, OR
I think that if I was off a tooth I would not be able to use VagCom to set timing, as it would probably be off scale to far to see.
In the set of injectors I had around the #3 had a different plug and therefore not interchangeable.
Based on the musical injector experiment I ran with the used ones and the original ones, I do believe the injectors to be the issue. I will get them sent off and see what comes from that.
Yea you got a point there, when I did my job I was using a knockoff program called VWTOOL, well for the fine adjustment. Do not even remember the whole confuser shebang very well now?!...Good luck.
 

UhOh

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Dec 24, 2014
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PNW
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2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
I think that if I was off a tooth I would not be able to use VagCom to set timing, as it would probably be off scale to far to see.
In the set of injectors I had around the #3 had a different plug and therefore not interchangeable.
Based on the musical injector experiment I ran with the used ones and the original ones, I do believe the injectors to be the issue. I will get them sent off and see what comes from that.
Not correct. Timing is set based on crank-to-IP positioning. You still have the cam, and the cam gear could be off a tooth (which would cause issues). I believe that it's possible to be off one tooth on the cam (sprocket) w/o trashing the engine (valve contact; two or more being deadly).
 

dubsix33

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Nov 2, 2017
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Midwest
TDI
2003 Jetta
I want to give this thread closure because nothing is worse than searching a fault and not finding the answer. After going through a bunch of checks the car was given back to the owner with the diagnosis that his injectors were the only thing I could not check but made a difference when I swapped in unknown used ones. He sent them out, to Kerma, got them back, and "it's better than when I bought it", he claimed. Oilhammer was correct.
 
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