www.tdiclub.com

Economy - Longevity - Performance
The #1 Source of TDI Information on the Web!
Forums Articles Links Meets
Orders TDI Club Cards TDIFest 2016 Gone, but not forgotten VAG-Com List Unit Conversions TDIClub Chat Thank You




Go Back   TDIClub Forums > VW TDI Discussion Areas > TDI News/Tech

TDI News/Tech This Forum is for the posting of TDI news related items.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old April 17th, 2018, 12:26   #16
jackbombay
Veteran Member
 
jackbombay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Diesel knows best
TDI(s): A4 Jetta
Fuel Economy: 57/43/32
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by oilhammer View Post
at a 2 percent increase in vessel operating costs, due to the
higher cost of lower-sulfur fuel."
That's encouraging to hear, I got the impression that running cleaner fuel hit their bottom line much harder than that.
__________________


Hp vs. TQ
jackbombay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 17th, 2018, 12:37   #17
oilhammer
Certified Volkswagen Nut Vendor
 
oilhammer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: St Louis
Fuel Economy: fantastic
Default

Well that 2% could still be millions of dollars a year for a large shipping company.
__________________
oilhammer
www.cardocautomotive.com
oilhammer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old April 18th, 2018, 19:52   #18
tikal
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Southeast Texas
Fuel Economy: 37 MPG (~ 45% city)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nomorotors View Post
"Findings published in the respected scientific journal Nature earlier this year revealed that a minimum of 38,000 people around the world die early every year as a result of the failure of diesel vehicles to meet official emissions limits in real driving conditions."

Give me a break!
-Jason
And how many people die when the potential consumer reads the above statement and instead of buying a potentially 'non-clean' diesel that in real driving conditions averages 37 MPG (combined) and goes and purchases an equivalent size vehicle with a gasoline engine that does not have a GPF (gas particulate filter), that gets 25 MPG (combined) and emits volatile organic compounds (VOC) known to contribute to smog an hazardous air quality in major cities?

The cost/benefit is not that straightforward in favor of gasoline cars.
tikal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 19th, 2018, 10:32   #19
JONZDOG
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: ROBBINSDALE MN
Fuel Economy: 42
Default

Will this survive real world testing outside of a development lab? Dieselgate sure sunk the "truth in engineering" marketing slogan VW/Audi had
JONZDOG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 19th, 2018, 17:29   #20
GreenLantern_TDI
Veteran Member
 
GreenLantern_TDI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Iowa
Fuel Economy: Mid 40s
Default

From the sounds of that article everyone is going towards electric anyway. Battery production is so muvh cleaner.
__________________
2015 Golf SEL. Frost Heater. Ares Skid Plate. Fumoto Valve. PentoIII.
GreenLantern_TDI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 19th, 2018, 19:34   #21
tikal
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Southeast Texas
Fuel Economy: 37 MPG (~ 45% city)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenLantern_TDI View Post
From the sounds of that article everyone is going towards electric anyway. Battery production is so muvh cleaner.
Good for urban driving for now. Not so good for road trips in which Americans prefer large cars driving long distances. A not so good combination for electrical cars for long distance driving: converting 'dinosaur' size cars to EV going 75 MPH for hundreds of miles.

Now take a look at the size of cars and the distances in Europe, Japan and Korea. Now you have a fertile ground for electrical vehicles.

Are Americans willing to downsize their vehicles so they can be electrified? Unlikely for many generations to come in my view.
tikal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 20th, 2018, 03:42   #22
GEFP
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Southern Alberta Canada
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenLantern_TDI View Post
From the sounds of that article everyone is going towards electric anyway. Battery production is so muvh cleaner.
Now either you are being sarcastic or are a bit clueless. Battery production cleaner?

Also I don't foresee in the reasonable future battery power being a viable option in colder climates or for rural people that need to travel long distances.
GEFP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 20th, 2018, 04:05   #23
turbobrick240
Veteran Member
 
turbobrick240's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: maine
Default

EV's won't suit everyone's needs immediately, but I'll wager that they will have a larger market share of new car sales in N. America than diesel cars ever had within 2 years. Shoot, they are probably already selling considerably more.
turbobrick240 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 20th, 2018, 04:35   #24
oilhammer
Certified Volkswagen Nut Vendor
 
oilhammer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: St Louis
Fuel Economy: fantastic
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by turbobrick240 View Post
EV's won't suit everyone's needs immediately, but I'll wager that they will have a larger market share of new car sales in N. America than diesel cars ever had within 2 years. Shoot, they are probably already selling considerably more.
I am inclined to say "not even close", however I suppose it would help if you qualified that statement. What years are we talking about? Volkswagen's diesels were so successful in the late '70s when they debuted that there was a waiting list to get one.... and was largely instrumental in them building a plant here to start building Rabbits in 1979. In 1981, the diesel was the ONLY way you could have purchased a Dasher here, because the previous year the gas versions sat and gathered dust on dealer lots. Same for the 1981 W123 MB (although they may have dropped the gas 123 sedan after 1979... can't remember). Electric cars, which DID exist then, were few and far between, and it wasn't from lack of trying, as the oil embargo was fertile ground and CARB was just starting to get into full swing.

The EV sales have not even, as of yet, hit the gov't figure that helps give the manufacturers credits for them. That and the current subsidies are right now fueling (no pun intended) their growth. Which while it looks impressive if you simply look at the numbers of EVs, it is dwarfed by the overall sales of ICE vehicles, and EVs still continue to be a tiny percentage of the overall new car sales.

If they do hit this magical number, and if the subsidies are removed, and they are forced to stand on their own merits, THEN we'll see what Americans really think of them. I am still not convinced they will be embraced in any great numbers any time soon, even if the current offerings DO meet the requirements of a LOT of consumers. Again, they are not buying up Versas and Sentras in huge numbers, so why would they make the leap to a more expensive Leaf?

I know we (the folks that frequent this site and are reading this) have largely made a decision to drive less thirsty vehicles, but we are an outspoken minority. And we'd be more likely to embrace a small EV than Jethro Knuckledragger in his new lifted 12 MPG F150 complete with $3k worth of Chinese wheels and tires and a $700/mo 8% interest payment.
__________________
oilhammer
www.cardocautomotive.com
oilhammer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old April 20th, 2018, 05:27   #25
turbobrick240
Veteran Member
 
turbobrick240's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: maine
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by oilhammer View Post
I am inclined to say "not even close", however I suppose it would help if you qualified that statement. What years are we talking about? Volkswagen's diesels were so successful in the late '70s when they debuted that there was a waiting list to get one.... and was largely instrumental in them building a plant here to start building Rabbits in 1979. In 1981, the diesel was the ONLY way you could have purchased a Dasher here, because the previous year the gas versions sat and gathered dust on dealer lots. Same for the 1981 W123 MB (although they may have dropped the gas 123 sedan after 1979... can't remember). Electric cars, which DID exist then, were few and far between, and it wasn't from lack of trying, as the oil embargo was fertile ground and CARB was just starting to get into full swing.
The EV sales have not even, as of yet, hit the gov't figure that helps give the manufacturers credits for them. That and the current subsidies are right now fueling (no pun intended) their growth. Which while it looks impressive if you simply look at the numbers of EVs, it is dwarfed by the overall sales of ICE vehicles, and EVs still continue to be a tiny percentage of the overall new car sales.
If they do hit this magical number, and if the subsidies are removed, and they are forced to stand on their own merits, THEN we'll see what Americans really think of them. I am still not convinced they will be embraced in any great numbers any time soon, even if the current offerings DO meet the requirements of a LOT of consumers. Again, they are not buying up Versas and Sentras in huge numbers, so why would they make the leap to a more expensive Leaf?
I know we (the folks that frequent this site and are reading this) have largely made a decision to drive less thirsty vehicles, but we are an outspoken minority. And we'd be more likely to embrace a small EV than Jethro Knuckledragger in his new lifted 12 MPG F150 complete with $3k worth of Chinese wheels and tires and a $700/mo 8% interest payment.

Even during the period of peak fuel prices during the OPEC embargo, I don't think diesel car sales made up more than 2 or 3% of new car sales. I could be wrong.

The waiting lists for EV's today dwarfs whatever the diesel wait lists were back then. Battery tech just wasn't mature enough in the 70's/80's to make the EV viable for most people at the time. That has all changed in the last decade or so. Tesla alone is now selling over 2000 EV's a week and increasing rapidly. And there are other manufacturers coming in fast. Despite having lousy batteries/thermal management, the new LEAF will probably sell well. And despite the god-awful looks of the Bolt, they'll sell quite a few.

Yeah, it'll be a few years before EV sales overtake all ICE passenger car sales here, but I think they've already overtaken diesel car sales. VW' s dieselgate blunder just sped that transition up.

Last edited by turbobrick240; April 20th, 2018 at 05:30.
turbobrick240 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 20th, 2018, 05:39   #26
oilhammer
Certified Volkswagen Nut Vendor
 
oilhammer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: St Louis
Fuel Economy: fantastic
Default

Chevrolet sold almost 23k Bolts last year.... Volkswagen sold almost 69k Golfs (none of which were diesels, obviously).

So it is again quite difficult to say what/how diesel sales specifically fall into things now. I know from 2009 onward, Volkswagen sales of every model offered with a diesel engine rose substantially through 2014, and a substantial chunk of that was courtesy of the TDI engine option, even though they obviously were not all diesels. Our local dealer here said that gasoline sales were flatlined on Jettas and Passats, which prompted a bunch of them getting blown out to fleet sales like Enterprise.

So one could say, VAG's self-inflicted and now self-perpetuating Dieselgate issue has "fueled" some of the recent EV sales, ironically. The only other bread-and-butter diesel passenger car you can even buy today in this country is the Cruze, and they do not advertise them (I doubt most people, even flag waving GM fans, even know they exist). So it isn't exactly like EVs, collectively, have much of a competition.

And just remember, for every ONE Bolt Chevrolet sold last year, TWENTY FIVE Silverados found their way off the dealer lots.

Diesel passenger car sales during the late 1970s were low because there were not much available. The Volkswagen Rabbit, Dasher, the MB 123 and 116, and a couple big GM bombs. It was not until the early/mid '80s that Toyota, Nissan, Isuzu, Mazda, Ford, BMW started selling them here... and by that time, the 1980s boom of excess had caused Americans to quickly forget about fuel economy, so they all went away.... even Volkswagen's offerings, even Mercedes-Benz... the decades long stable of the genre... sold no diesel passenger cars here for a few years.
__________________
oilhammer
www.cardocautomotive.com

Last edited by oilhammer; April 20th, 2018 at 05:44.
oilhammer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old April 20th, 2018, 07:07   #27
wxman
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: East TN, USA
TDI(s): Other Diesel
Default

Here is a forecast that LD diesels will grow faster than EV over the next few years:

https://seekingalpha.com/article/415...6-percent-2019

Of course, market forecasts are inherently dubious propositions.
wxman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 20th, 2018, 07:13   #28
kjclow
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Charlotte, NC
Fuel Economy: 55 max / 44 avg on beetle ~37 on JSW
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by turbobrick240 View Post
The waiting lists for EV's today dwarfs whatever the diesel wait lists were back then. Battery tech just wasn't mature enough in the 70's/80's to make the EV viable for most people at the time. That has all changed in the last decade or so. Tesla alone is now selling over 2000 EV's a week and increasing rapidly.
Other then Tesla, I donít know where this list of people waiting for EVs comes from. I can drive on most any new car lot in Charlotte and find EVs. If they didnít wash them every day, they all be buried in the sickly green pine pollen that covers everything this time of year. The Tesla line keeps getting longer since theyíve shut the plant down trying to get the computers and robots to do at least as good of job as humans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tikal View Post
Good for urban driving for now. Not so good for road trips in which Americans prefer large cars driving long distances. A not so good combination for electrical cars for long distance driving: converting 'dinosaur' size cars to EV going 75 MPH for hundreds of miles.
Now take a look at the size of cars and the distances in Europe, Japan and Korea. Now you have a fertile ground for electrical vehicles.
Are Americans willing to downsize their vehicles so they can be electrified? Unlikely for many generations to come in my view.
When I moved to Charlotte, my first boss was a German National. He couldnít understand why Americans didnít have passports. We explained to him that we could go 4 to 24+ hours in any direction without needing anything other than a drivers license. 4 hours is the quickest route to the ocean. Even going to Canada at the time required nothing more than a birth certificate. From where he grew up 3-4 hours could have put him in at least 3 different countries. It is really a much different world to drive in, if you even owned a car. Most of my coworkers in Germany commuted by rail.
__________________
2010 silver/black JSW TDI with DSG, 2011 red Golf TDI with dsg, 2003 red/gray Passat 1.8l gasser
kjclow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 20th, 2018, 08:30   #29
turbobrick240
Veteran Member
 
turbobrick240's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: maine
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kjclow View Post
Other then Tesla, I donít know where this list of people waiting for EVs comes from. I can drive on most any new car lot in Charlotte and find EVs. If they didnít wash them every day, they all be buried in the sickly green pine pollen that covers everything this time of year. The Tesla line keeps getting longer since theyíve shut the plant down trying to get the computers and robots to do at least as good of humans.
Yeah, it's pretty much just the Teslas people are lining up for. Still, over half a million people are plunking down a grand to get on the list. They'll dominate the EV market here for at least a few more years. The wait list (not necessarily wait time)will probably just get longer as more people see the model 3 on the road and realize what a great car it is.

Every auto production line gets shut down from time to time, especially in early production. It's only when Tesla does it that all the naysayers come out of the woodwork claiming the sky is falling. There are powerful forces opposing a quick transition to the EV. But Tesla has the right stuff to put them in the past.
turbobrick240 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 20th, 2018, 08:48   #30
oilhammer
Certified Volkswagen Nut Vendor
 
oilhammer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: St Louis
Fuel Economy: fantastic
Default

Tesla is plagued with production problems, the "list" looks to me to be a nifty way to raise a bunch of capital to slow down the company's money bleeding problems, and does not necessarily mean all those people are actually wanting to buy them. Right now, there are a BUNCH of brand new 3s on the auction lots that were purchased by speculators... these people have no interest in the cars beyond trying to make a buck. They did the same thing with a bunch of other cars, too (the New Beetle was one of them).

And now the Elon Musk zealots have raised a bunch of cash to buy His Highness a new couch for his long days at work. Seriously. The guy just launched a car into space. The whole organization looks more and more like a ponzi scheme to me, and as someone else here said, he's one step away from a Bond villain.

I would have FAR more faith in a REAL car company designing, building, and selling an EV, but since there is not any strong urge to do so, they'll do it half hearted and/or right alongside the pump suckers that everyone else will actually buy.

Oh, and the "every man's Tesla", that was supposed to start at under $30k (already pretty pricey for me), quickly shot past that, and all the ones at auction are ones that sold new for nearly twice that. It will probably be another year before an entry level one is actually built and sold at an entry level price. But there are truckloads of them for sale all over for $55k+ that are barely used. So there is no need to "wait", you can have your choice of 100+ of them with less than 500 miles on them, LOL.
__________________
oilhammer
www.cardocautomotive.com

Last edited by oilhammer; April 20th, 2018 at 08:53.
oilhammer is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
VW 1.6 Turbo Diesel Engine absalom Private TDI Items for Sale/Wanted 0 June 27th, 2016 14:48
Mitsi Lancer GS4 Diesel With VW/AUDI engine, (or VAG Diesel owners) need your input! Solus TDI 101 5 November 26th, 2011 07:24
Engine issues in volvo diesel, I know it know a vw but It is a diesel 1977busman TDI 101 8 October 26th, 2009 18:23
Is there more than on VW diesel engine? Canuckmel General VW Discussion 5 January 22nd, 2008 10:10
VW Slant Six Diesel engine?? Blair TDI 101 9 December 14th, 2001 00:22


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:02.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright - TDIClub Online LTD - 2017
Contact Us | Privacy Statement | Forum Rules | Disclaimer
TDIClub Online Ltd (TDIClub.com) is not affiliated with the VWoA or VWAG and is supported by contributions from viewers like you.
© 1996 - 2017, All Rights Reserved
Page generated in 0.16505 seconds with 10 queries
[Output: 142.63 Kb. compressed to 120.75 Kb. by saving 21.88 Kb. (15.34%)]