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Dieselgate - VW Group Emission Scandal Discussion around the VW Dieselgate Emissions scandal. Details and news updates can be viewed here: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=448336 This forum is a work in progress depending on requirements, usage, etc.

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Old February 25th, 2018, 04:08   #31
bizzle
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Originally Posted by walterwood View Post
So now I'm thinking do the CA smog test without first doing the "modification" and further postpone the decision. Low mileage is because not commuting anymore. Thanks!
What is preventing you from deciding? The impacts on the longevity of the car won't be known for years, if ever, and fixed TDIs have warranties that will cover them during that time anyway.

The decision comes down to how much you are getting for the buyback vs. repair vs. price to buy another TDI
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Old February 25th, 2018, 16:57   #32
walterwood
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Default RE: 23U3 modification vs. buyback - - which is better?

The "fixed" (23U3 modification) warranty appears to extend 4 years from the date of the "fix," so that might be reason to delay the date of the fix. I don't know how to determine a threshold dollar price that would make it better to do the "buyback" than a "modification." One issue is that buying another equivalent TDI might not be easy. I know the history and care of what I have owned since new and getting a replacement would be one more hassle.


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Originally Posted by bizzle View Post
What is preventing you from deciding? The impacts on the longevity of the car won't be known for years, if ever, and fixed TDIs have warranties that will cover them during that time anyway.

The decision comes down to how much you are getting for the buyback vs. repair vs. price to buy another TDI
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Old February 25th, 2018, 17:24   #33
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I can understand delaying the fix in order to maximize the warranty period, but I'm more curious as to why you haven't determined *whether* you're going to get the fix (as opposed to when). That said, if you decide to get the fix you won't experience a difference in warranty terms based on the mileage you drive per year.

Not just equivalent, but better TDIs are readily available. I used cargurus to set an alert just so I can keep abreast of what's out there in our area (I'm in SoCal and have it set to a 500 mile radius, though). I can't tell you what the cutoff is going to be since that's a personal decision. I can tell you what I did, though:

I had a 2012 JSW with just over 120K miles on it (I turned it in right at my tolerance level for deferred DSG and timing belt maintenance). I bought it for approximately $19K. I turned it in for somewhere between $17-18K last year during the first month they were taking appointments. We leased a 2016 eGolf to get us through the transition period until they were selling 2015s again.

Last month, I brought home a 2015 SEL GSW with 65K miles for 15K. I was looking at a Golf for 11K but I passed on that after my wife reminded me we are expecting a son soon (in May) and with our daughter and lab we won't have a lot of room. I got my buddy who was looking for a new car into that Golf...turns out it also had the lighting, technology, and parking sensors but the dealership didn't know it! I wanted those packages but the only GSW with them I could find was 22K.

I feel competent to do a pre-purchase inspection and I have a VCDS (which you could borrow if you don't know/can't find anyone more local to you) to check for any lurking issues. I'd strongly encourage you to upgrade from your 2009 into a 2015. See how much you will get for your buyback. Then check cargurus for a car you are comfortable driving. Compare the two numbers

Buy the 2015 you find and schedule the 2009 for return ASAP before things get trickier. The only snag would be if you have a manual and you absolutely must have a manual, because those seem more difficult to come by. The 2015s will have a warranty to cover most of the big ticket concerns and you can visually checkout the wear and tear, but you'd have to really pick a clunker to get something that doesn't have less wear than your 2009.

So much technology, too. The 2015s have an upgraded drivetrain, KESSY, better infotainment, nicer seats, dual climate control, etc.

You could also see what you are going to get just for doing the fix but keeping the car, but I don't think that's going to get you the most bang for buck based on what I'm seeing the market do. Some people are talking about not doing the fix at all and not taking any money from VW, but that just seems like leaving money on the table unnecessarily.
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Old February 25th, 2018, 21:49   #34
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Default RE: 23U3 modification vs. buyback - - which is better?

I think extending the warranty by 4 years from the date of "the fix" matters more to me than the mileage waranty because my projected mileage is relatively low - - right now I'm at 33,063 miles on my 2009 Jetta TDI SW and even if by Dec. 2018 the mileage is up to the 40,001-45,000 bracket the "restitution payment" remains the same at $6,011.73 and the "vehicle return amount" remains $15,125. I have inserted various 2018 return dates into the calculator and the payment amounts don't change. I like the idea of monitoring cargurus to see what a similar mileage newer TDI Jetta SW would cost but so far I'm seeing at least $3K more than $15,125 and that would get me a newer car but I really would not know how meticulously it was cared for or how hard it has been driven as compared to the 2009 I've babied since new. There is also a certain amount of hassle buying another car.


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Originally Posted by bizzle View Post
I can understand delaying the fix in order to maximize the warranty period, but I'm more curious as to why you haven't determined *whether* you're going to get the fix (as opposed to when). That said, if you decide to get the fix you won't experience a difference in warranty terms based on the mileage you drive per year.

Not just equivalent, but better TDIs are readily available. I used cargurus to set an alert just so I can keep abreast of what's out there in our area (I'm in SoCal and have it set to a 500 mile radius, though). I can't tell you what the cutoff is going to be since that's a personal decision. I can tell you what I did, though:

I had a 2012 JSW with just over 120K miles on it (I turned it in right at my tolerance level for deferred DSG and timing belt maintenance). I bought it for approximately $19K. I turned it in for somewhere between $17-18K last year during the first month they were taking appointments. We leased a 2016 eGolf to get us through the transition period until they were selling 2015s again.

Last month, I brought home a 2015 SEL GSW with 65K miles for 15K. I was looking at a Golf for 11K but I passed on that after my wife reminded me we are expecting a son soon (in May) and with our daughter and lab we won't have a lot of room. I got my buddy who was looking for a new car into that Golf...turns out it also had the lighting, technology, and parking sensors but the dealership didn't know it! I wanted those packages but the only GSW with them I could find was 22K.

I feel competent to do a pre-purchase inspection and I have a VCDS (which you could borrow if you don't know/can't find anyone more local to you) to check for any lurking issues. I'd strongly encourage you to upgrade from your 2009 into a 2015. See how much you will get for your buyback. Then check cargurus for a car you are comfortable driving. Compare the two numbers

Buy the 2015 you find and schedule the 2009 for return ASAP before things get trickier. The only snag would be if you have a manual and you absolutely must have a manual, because those seem more difficult to come by. The 2015s will have a warranty to cover most of the big ticket concerns and you can visually checkout the wear and tear, but you'd have to really pick a clunker to get something that doesn't have less wear than your 2009.

So much technology, too. The 2015s have an upgraded drivetrain, KESSY, better infotainment, nicer seats, dual climate control, etc.

You could also see what you are going to get just for doing the fix but keeping the car, but I don't think that's going to get you the most bang for buck based on what I'm seeing the market do. Some people are talking about not doing the fix at all and not taking any money from VW, but that just seems like leaving money on the table unnecessarily.
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Old February 25th, 2018, 22:35   #35
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Originally Posted by walterwood View Post
I think extending the warranty by 4 years from the date of "the fix" matters more to me than the mileage waranty because my projected mileage is relatively low - - right now I'm at 33,063 miles on my 2009 Jetta TDI
I agree with what you're writing. I am trying to discuss whether you should get the fix vs. getting a newer car rather than when to get the fix. If you are going to do the fix then you should definitely wait as long as possible to do it. The only caveat about that is you should look to schedule your buyback or fix no later than September. There are reports coming in that VW is shuttering the doors relatively quickly and appointments are becoming increasingly difficult and VW is becoming selective in what they approve. If you opt for the buyback I suggest you do it ASAP.

My reasoning on the issue regarding the great unknown (my favorite thing to say to my friends who ask me about buying used cars is that the thing to remember is no one wakes up in the morning and decides to sell a car because it's running too good) is that a 2015 could have only been on the road for approximately two years. Almost all of the major components are covered under the emissions warranty and the last piece, the transmission, is relatively bullet proof (both the DSG and manual) and fairly simple to check the operation. With my offer of the VCDS, you can literally plug that in and check for any fault codes and see if anything is lurking.

So now we're concerned about maintenance and visual inspection. If you're looking at a car with around 30K miles then the initial maintenance was done by the dealership, some are still going to be under the bumper to bumper warranty, and I'd just assume the most recent weren't done on the way to turn in. You'll also be looking at a fair number of CPOs with that mileage and they'll have a 2yr/unlimited mileage bumper to bumper warranty. If you're looking at a 60K miles car, like mine and my buddy's were, then a little sleuthing will get you the service records. I was able to pull mine and my buddy's golf. Here's how:

The CARFAX will sometimes indicate services completed. You can call the dealership and ask them for service records for that car. Dealerships aren't interconnected so if all of the service records aren't at that dealership you have to keep hunting. You could check local dealerships based on the car's registration area (that's how I found the service records for my 2012 years ago). They may or may not tell you. The 2015 I just picked up happened to have all of its service records at a dealership in San Diego that I have an account with and was able to finesse the records from them before I owned it (some service managers won't give out the service records to random people calling in).

My personal opinion is that a 2015 is a new enough that the risk here is very low, even if a service was skipped at the end. I pre-emptively did both my and my buddy's DSG service because they are either 20K overdue or 20K too soon at 65K miles. My general feeling is that neither one matters but to the extent that a 20K overdue service on the DSG was going to grenade it that it would have already done so. The extra wear, if there has been any, won't show its effects until probably ten years down the road when any amount of other things will certainly take their toll on the vehicle anyway. You drive even less miles than I do so I doubt you will ever notice or find out.

Of course, your yearly mileage does beg the question of whether a TDI is the right replacement vehicle for you. If you are driving around a city for around 4K miles per year, you are doing much more damage to the vehicle than anyone who drove it for two years as hard as they could to hit 60K miles (30K miles per year is almost certainly all commuting/freeway driving). You could get a 2018 TSI for the same price or less than the 2015 TDI and probably a sportier city experience.

Visual: the only thing that really matters here if you agree with my logic about the rest. It's a 15 minute process to walk around, kick the tires, and look at the seat stitching to see how much wear the 2015 experienced in the two years it was in service. I understand where you're coming from. I refused to get rid of my 1998 bug for much of the same reason so I'm not trying to minimize the connection and love you have for your 2009. But no matter how much you babied your car it's 10 years old. I believe you owe it to yourself to at least take a 2015 and a 2018 around a few blocks and freeway runs to see for yourself if they're worthy of consideration.

Hassle: I understand everything I wrote is a big huge hassle. I hate dealerships with a passion. So far I was lied to about everything under the sun and even things that don't make sense. The 2nd key for my 2015 never materialized (I did talk the price down for that at least). The Golf for my buddy was supposed to come with a $100 dollar referral bonus once I passed on it but brought my buddy in for the sale (I didn't ask for the bonus, it was an unsolicited offer after the sale was complete. Why the salesperson lied about it, I'll probably never know). The payoff, though, has been beyond worth it every time we load up our family for an OB/GYN appointment in San Diego and we aren't trying to cram into my little bug with my seat at a 90 degree angle to make room for the daughter's car seat. I was also able to avoid all the expensive maintenance that was due on my 2012. Just food for thought and I hope this is useful information...

[one last point: it doesn't look like VW is recirculating clunkers. All of the 2015s I've seen were in pristine good condition regardless of mileage]
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Old February 26th, 2018, 20:29   #36
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Bizzle, thanks for the informative and well reasoned thoughts. I do recall seeing something about needing to decide on TDI fix vs. buyback by September 2018 but don't recall where I saw that - - You make some good points about reasons to consider a newer car and I'll give it some thought. Not having to go to a filling station often is a big reason I like TDI and the gasoline powered cars don't have the same range.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bizzle View Post
I agree with what you're writing. I am trying to discuss whether you should get the fix vs. getting a newer car rather than when to get the fix. If you are going to do the fix then you should definitely wait as long as possible to do it. The only caveat about that is you should look to schedule your buyback or fix no later than September. There are reports coming in that VW is shuttering the doors relatively quickly and appointments are becoming increasingly difficult and VW is becoming selective in what they approve. If you opt for the buyback I suggest you do it ASAP.

My reasoning on the issue regarding the great unknown (my favorite thing to say to my friends who ask me about buying used cars is that the thing to remember is no one wakes up in the morning and decides to sell a car because it's running too good) is that a 2015 could have only been on the road for approximately two years. Almost all of the major components are covered under the emissions warranty and the last piece, the transmission, is relatively bullet proof (both the DSG and manual) and fairly simple to check the operation. With my offer of the VCDS, you can literally plug that in and check for any fault codes and see if anything is lurking.

So now we're concerned about maintenance and visual inspection. If you're looking at a car with around 30K miles then the initial maintenance was done by the dealership, some are still going to be under the bumper to bumper warranty, and I'd just assume the most recent weren't done on the way to turn in. You'll also be looking at a fair number of CPOs with that mileage and they'll have a 2yr/unlimited mileage bumper to bumper warranty. If you're looking at a 60K miles car, like mine and my buddy's were, then a little sleuthing will get you the service records. I was able to pull mine and my buddy's golf. Here's how:

The CARFAX will sometimes indicate services completed. You can call the dealership and ask them for service records for that car. Dealerships aren't interconnected so if all of the service records aren't at that dealership you have to keep hunting. You could check local dealerships based on the car's registration area (that's how I found the service records for my 2012 years ago). They may or may not tell you. The 2015 I just picked up happened to have all of its service records at a dealership in San Diego that I have an account with and was able to finesse the records from them before I owned it (some service managers won't give out the service records to random people calling in).

My personal opinion is that a 2015 is a new enough that the risk here is very low, even if a service was skipped at the end. I pre-emptively did both my and my buddy's DSG service because they are either 20K overdue or 20K too soon at 65K miles. My general feeling is that neither one matters but to the extent that a 20K overdue service on the DSG was going to grenade it that it would have already done so. The extra wear, if there has been any, won't show its effects until probably ten years down the road when any amount of other things will certainly take their toll on the vehicle anyway. You drive even less miles than I do so I doubt you will ever notice or find out.

Of course, your yearly mileage does beg the question of whether a TDI is the right replacement vehicle for you. If you are driving around a city for around 4K miles per year, you are doing much more damage to the vehicle than anyone who drove it for two years as hard as they could to hit 60K miles (30K miles per year is almost certainly all commuting/freeway driving). You could get a 2018 TSI for the same price or less than the 2015 TDI and probably a sportier city experience.

Visual: the only thing that really matters here if you agree with my logic about the rest. It's a 15 minute process to walk around, kick the tires, and look at the seat stitching to see how much wear the 2015 experienced in the two years it was in service. I understand where you're coming from. I refused to get rid of my 1998 bug for much of the same reason so I'm not trying to minimize the connection and love you have for your 2009. But no matter how much you babied your car it's 10 years old. I believe you owe it to yourself to at least take a 2015 and a 2018 around a few blocks and freeway runs to see for yourself if they're worthy of consideration.

Hassle: I understand everything I wrote is a big huge hassle. I hate dealerships with a passion. So far I was lied to about everything under the sun and even things that don't make sense. The 2nd key for my 2015 never materialized (I did talk the price down for that at least). The Golf for my buddy was supposed to come with a $100 dollar referral bonus once I passed on it but brought my buddy in for the sale (I didn't ask for the bonus, it was an unsolicited offer after the sale was complete. Why the salesperson lied about it, I'll probably never know). The payoff, though, has been beyond worth it every time we load up our family for an OB/GYN appointment in San Diego and we aren't trying to cram into my little bug with my seat at a 90 degree angle to make room for the daughter's car seat. I was also able to avoid all the expensive maintenance that was due on my 2012. Just food for thought and I hope this is useful information...

[one last point: it doesn't look like VW is recirculating clunkers. All of the 2015s I've seen were in pristine good condition regardless of mileage]
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Old March 19th, 2018, 09:12   #37
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I plan to return my JSW in the fall (Sept). My dealer just told me this same line that if VW reaches 85% before the deadlined, they will stop offering buybacks/repairs.

This is indeed nonsense, correct?
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Old March 19th, 2018, 11:00   #38
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I plan to return my JSW in the fall (Sept). My dealer just told me this same line that if VW reaches 85% before the deadlined, they will stop offering buybacks/repairs.

This is indeed nonsense, correct?
Dealers may (and, it appears, often will) pull something out of their nether orifice and solemnly present it as fact. The only facts that matter are in the legal agreement arrived at in Federal court and approved by the judge. And it says end of December*. Which do you think will prevail?

*Note: a person desiring to do the buyback must have completed the application process by September, but that is all, and a clear different thing than choosing a return date..
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Old March 19th, 2018, 12:20   #39
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They certainly could stop offering enough appointments to allow latecomers to actually get scheduled. Or only enough that you might not be able to get an appointment nearby. Not saying that this will happen, just that it could
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Old March 19th, 2018, 13:08   #40
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After crossing the 85% threshold they are no longer held to a financial penalty for the remainder so not only can they refuse to accept anymore after that but I'd plan on them doing so if I was in the same situation.
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Old March 20th, 2018, 07:03   #41
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Thanks for the replies. I do need to keep this car until September.
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Old May 21st, 2018, 15:13   #42
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After crossing the 85% threshold they are no longer held to a financial penalty for the remainder so not only can they refuse to accept anymore after that but I'd plan on them doing so if I was in the same situation.

Correct, the 85% threshold is so VW does not have to pay additional fines. Hence, why VW service is creating urgency for customers like myself to make a decision and pull the trigger on the modification or buyback options, so they don't get penalized.



However, I disagree that VW can "refuse" after the 85% is met. That is not accurate. Again, the purpose of the 85% push is so they don't have to pay more financial penalties. I am going to hold out until September and then I can still keep my car til December. Why not? The wear and tear I put on this car is costing me zero depreciation. I bought my '15 Passat TDI SEL brand new back in 2014. Plus, my concern would be resale value, if I ever did consider to sell. Even the resale value for gas VW's have dropped, at least in my area. I have never kept a car long enough to drive it into the ground anyway. That could be a viable option for me in this scenario if I wanted to keep the car for another 10+years, but that's not the case for me. However, Ill take the $32,500 they are offering me for my VW. I have basically driven my car with zero depreciation for the past 4 years and put 37k miles on my car. I'll take the cash and figure out what I want next. Either way, the diesels will be back out in the next few years.
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Old May 22nd, 2018, 03:58   #43
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Originally Posted by bizzle:
After crossing the 85% threshold they are no longer held to a financial penalty for the remainder so not only can they refuse to accept anymore after that but I'd plan on them doing so if I was in the same situation.


And this, ladies and gentlemen, is how internet myth and misinformation is propagated. The 85% in no way represents some magic threshold whereby VW can stop accepting buybacks. As was explained, it is merely the bar VW has to cross to avoid additional penalties under the legal settlement.
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Old May 22nd, 2018, 04:46   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bizzle:
After crossing the 85% threshold they are no longer held to a financial penalty for the remainder so not only can they refuse to accept anymore after that but I'd plan on them doing so if I was in the same situation.


And this, ladies and gentlemen, is how internet myth and misinformation is propagated. The 85% in no way represents some magic threshold whereby VW can stop accepting buybacks. As was explained, it is merely the bar VW has to cross to avoid additional penalties under the legal settlement.

Agreed!!!!
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Old May 22nd, 2018, 10:07   #45
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What makes you think they are going to continue offering buybacks and fixes after they can no longer be penalized for the remaining cars without them? Corporate generosity from VW? Pixie dust?
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