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Dieselgate - VW Group Emission Scandal Discussion around the VW Dieselgate Emissions scandal. Details and news updates can be viewed here: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=448336 This forum is a work in progress depending on requirements, usage, etc.

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Old August 24th, 2017, 05:55   #1
forrest resto`s
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Default what to do after neutered/ruined

what to do after neutered..been reading that some cars are really ruined after mod.. what are our options to fix this?.. according to the description from VW this should not be this bad...loss of power and really dropped mpg's...I have an appointment for my 2011 6mt next week and am seriously concerned that my car will be ruined.....where do we draw the line where the fix does more negative results than VW says it will do..e.g. 4-6 loss of mpg...10-25% loss of power? what will be enough loss that it is unacceptable?? Where/when will we say, or draw a line and say "this is not what is supposed to happen//you have ruined my car..this IS unacceptable"

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Old August 24th, 2017, 06:02   #2
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Just switch it to buyback if you believe all the bull****. Or tune it and delete it after you get it back with the fat check you get.
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Old August 24th, 2017, 06:15   #3
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Originally Posted by Nash_TDI View Post
Just switch it to buyback if you believe all the bull****. Or tune it and delete it after you get it back with the fat check you get.
so all the people that have complaints are full of sh$$?? wow..great answer some people have very little differences.. while some have major ones.. so apparently there may be some inconsistencies in the updates..this would be the doing of the installers of the updates possibly I don't think this is bull sh$$

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Old August 24th, 2017, 06:33   #4
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Originally Posted by forrest resto`s View Post
so all the people that have complaints are full of sh$$?? wow..great answer some people have very little differences.. while some have major ones.. so apparently there may be some inconsistencies in the updates..this would be the doing of the installers of the updates possibly I don't think this is bull sh$$
then take his second suggestion and tune it... probably worth the upgrade even if you didn't notice a performance dip
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Old August 24th, 2017, 07:06   #5
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Originally Posted by forrest resto`s View Post
so all the people that have complaints are full of sh$$?? wow..great answer some people have very little differences.. while some have major ones.. so apparently there may be some inconsistencies in the updates..this would be the doing of the installers of the updates possibly I don't think this is bull sh$$
Anecdotal evidence, is not evidence.

Lets see a before/after dyno. A before/after timed/video'd 0-60 run.
Before/after mpg (with many tanks and miles to establish a real trend).

People believe that a louder car is a faster car. The butt-dyno and placebo effect give all kinds of wrong answers when it comes to modifying cars.
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Old August 24th, 2017, 07:22   #6
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I've got first hand dealings, had my Jetta "fixed" Last Friday I've already run through one full tank and working on the second my fuel mileage is HORRIBLE!!! In the 6 days since the repair I had to fill up where before the "fix" it would take me at least 2 weeks before I needed a fill up... Ran through a full tank in 6 stinking days...Yeah that's real world numbers....


I have no dyno numbers to give but it is definitely requiring more RPMs to take off from a red light and takes much longer to accelerate onto the interstate speeds (70+)
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Old August 24th, 2017, 07:39   #7
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Originally Posted by joe schmoe View Post
Last Friday I've already run through one full tank and working on the second my fuel mileage is HORRIBLE!!! In the 6 days since the repair I had to fill up where before the "fix" it would take me at least 2 weeks before I needed a fill up... Ran through a full tank in 6 stinking days...Yeah that's real world numbers....
You didnt give any real meaningful numbers at all... How many miles per tank? how many gallons did you fill up? Before and after MPG hand calculated, scanguage, or even MFD?
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Old August 24th, 2017, 07:53   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joe schmoe View Post
I've got first hand dealings, had my Jetta "fixed" Last Friday I've already run through one full tank and working on the second my fuel mileage is HORRIBLE!!! In the 6 days since the repair I had to fill up where before the "fix" it would take me at least 2 weeks before I needed a fill up... Ran through a full tank in 6 stinking days...Yeah that's real world numbers....


I have no dyno numbers to give but it is definitely requiring more RPMs to take off from a red light and takes much longer to accelerate onto the interstate speeds (70+)
The "real" world numbers you provided:

last [last Friday
first [first hand]
one [one full tank]
second [working on the second]
2 [2 weeks]
6 [stinking days]
more [rpms]
longer [much longer]
70 [70+]

That's some great data right there


There does seem to be significantly different initial reactions. Is it all in the mind? Or maybe current condition of exhaust components such as the DPF can produce different results. Who knows, at this point?

In the absence of a dyno, I'm going to run a few 0-60 times before and after, and I have full data on mileage to compare to. You know ... real numbers.
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Old August 24th, 2017, 08:23   #9
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Regarding getting a tune after the fix and expecting that to solve this "neutered" problem, got this from Owain at Malone:

We will not be reverting the fix adjustments, only offering performance tunes atop of them. Reversing federally mandated emissions updates and falsifying data outputs is not something we will be getting into.

I interpret this to mean that, if before the fix, you were averaging 45 MPG, you could probably get up to 48 MPG after the tune. Now after the fix, if you are down to 35 MPG, you could expect 38 MPG after the tune. That's my interpretation of the Malone message. Not sure there is salvation to get back to pre-fix conditions with a tune that doesn't undue some/most of the parameters the dealers had to put into the ECU fix.
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Old August 24th, 2017, 08:28   #10
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You can also record some engine data, too, for before and after results. However it is important to remember that DPF regen cycles could skew the results if data is obtained in short concentrated events. Long(er) term data gathering is better. I am also curious as to if the DPF adaptations are getting properly reset afterwards. I would *think* that a reflash would force that (it does on MB products), but I do not know how VAG does it.

It is not rocket science though to conclude that ANY modification that will reduce NOx (aside from an entire SCR installation) will increase fuel consumption at least a little. And that increase in fuel consumption will also necessitate more frequent DPF regen cycles, which in turn with further increase fuel consumption.

Given there are two stages of regen (at least there was with the "cheating" software), and a lot of people do not have a really good idea of when their car is actually doing so let alone how often, it could be a difficult task to make a valid comparison before and after. I only give credibility to someone who has amassed a lot of data beforehand over a wide variety of driving conditions and a significant number of miles to make a good comparison.

Great opportunity for the tuners, though! Because they can offer something that they really could not before: availing themselves for a service to put the car to as-it-left-the-factory! That is probably the route I would take if I did not want to lose the DPF. And I hope the tuners can do software that allows for this, and allows the engine to do what it does best: run really lean, not smoke, and use very little fuel.
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Old August 24th, 2017, 08:45   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 93celicaconv View Post
Regarding getting a tune after the fix and expecting that to solve this "neutered" problem, got this from Owain at Malone:

We will not be reverting the fix adjustments, only offering performance tunes atop of them. Reversing federally mandated emissions updates and falsifying data outputs is not something we will be getting into.

I interpret this to mean that, if before the fix, you were averaging 45 MPG, you could probably get up to 48 MPG after the tune. Now after the fix, if you are down to 35 MPG, you could expect 38 MPG after the tune. That's my interpretation of the Malone message. Not sure there is salvation to get back to pre-fix conditions with a tune that doesn't undue some/most of the parameters the dealers had to put into the ECU fix.
so you guys that are saying get the tune after.. this presents a problem if true..but then again.. they were doing their tunes before all this diesel gate stuff...
I'm would think altering the federal mandated emissions programs somewhat before would be questionable.. right? What's the difference?
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Old August 24th, 2017, 08:47   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 93celicaconv View Post

We will not be reverting the fix adjustments, only offering performance tunes atop of them. Reversing federally mandated emissions updates and falsifying data outputs is not something we will be getting into.
I fail to see where this is federally mandated. It is still at the discretion of the owner whether to have the fix installed or not. We are not required to comply. I also fail to see why altering it after the fix would in any way be different than altering after receiving it from the factory.

Maybe this is just a disclaimer statement....with a *wink-wink* on the side.
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Old August 24th, 2017, 08:48   #13
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soo .. is it possible that VW understated the effects of the updates/fix Oh that would be just a little deceitful.. they would never do that..funny though.. when these cars came out new.. the epa mpg est. on the window sticker was conservative, that made people happy!... now maybe it is LESS than what they were advertising after the fix..maybe alot less..not to mention the advertised power when new and what it will be after the fix..if this change is for real.. what a bummer...
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Old August 24th, 2017, 08:57   #14
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I've not read any objective data on the Gen 1 fix's impact on power or economy. The only hard info I've seen on the fix on any TDI is Car & Driver's before and after comparison on a 2015 Passat. In that case the car's performance and economy was virtually unchanged.

Of course the Gen 1 results may be different. And reading here, I'd say the ratio of people feeling the car's power delivery is the same versus losing power is about 10:1. Many, many more people report the car driving similarly, or even better, post fix. And two weeks into the fix it's fair to assume we have no reliable fuel economy data.

To the OP: If you get the car fixed and are unhappy with the performance, then you can have it tuned. Leave the emissions gear intact if you'd like. But trying to decide based on what you're reading here is guesswork.
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Old August 24th, 2017, 08:57   #15
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Originally Posted by SkeeterMark View Post
I fail to see where this is federally mandated. It is still at the discretion of the owner whether to have the fix installed or not. We are not required to comply. I also fail to see why altering it after the fix would in any way be different than altering after receiving it from the factory.

Maybe this is just a disclaimer statement....with a *wink-wink* on the side.
I agree, that makes no sense to me. They were doing EGR/DPF delete tunes before, but now suddenly they won't put it back to factory? Certainly the "cheating" cars run cleaner than one with no EGR or DPF at all! At least my scientific nose thinks so, LOL.
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