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Go Back   TDIClub Forums > VW TDI Discussion Areas > Dieselgate - VW Group Emission Scandal

Dieselgate - VW Group Emission Scandal Discussion around the VW Dieselgate Emissions scandal. Details and news updates can be viewed here: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=448336 This forum is a work in progress depending on requirements, usage, etc.

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Old May 10th, 2017, 11:44   #31
VWMark
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Originally Posted by kjclow View Post
I knew that didn't sound right:
"Because a car may have more than one owner during the relevant period, for those cars that changed hands after September 18, 2015 and during the claims period, the settlement equitably divides the Owner Restitution payment approximately 50/50 between the owner as of September 18, 2015 who later sold the car (“Eligible Seller”) and the current owner (“Eligible Owner”). To qualify for an Eligible Seller restitution payment, you must identify yourself with 45 days of the entry of the Preliminary Approval Order. If preliminary approval is granted by the Court on July 26, 2016 (the date of the preliminary approval hearing), you will have until September 16, 2016 to identify yourself. Note that if you sell your car after June 28, 2016, you will not be an Eligible Seller (or an Eligible Owner)."
Yes, in that case the restitution gets split. But what we are talking about here is something completely different here.

Take my case for example. I owned a 2010 Golf since new. The car was in an accident and deemed totaled by the insurance company (Note that had to happen before June 26 2016 and September 18th 2016 or so). I sign the title over to the insurance company and take my payout(which is nowhere near what the buyback would have been). I file for and am eligible for the VW restitution money($5100 or so). That part is what happened, below is what could happen: In the mean time, the insurance company sells the car to a junkyard/salvage yard. Someone sees the car there and decides they can fix it for not too much, so they buy it from the salvage yard, fix it up, and apply for a salvage title. Then they start the buyback process with VW. Are they also eligible for the restitution money? I think not.

I have no idea if that's what's happening here, just throwing out a theoretical case.
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Old May 10th, 2017, 11:45   #32
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Originally Posted by kjclow View Post
"Because a car may have more than one owner during the relevant period, for those cars that changed hands after September 18, 2015 and during the claims period, the settlement equitably divides the Owner Restitution payment approximately 50/50 between the owner as of September 18, 2015 who later sold the car (“Eligible Seller”) and the current owner (“Eligible Owner”).
This is an oversimplification and doesn't accurately reflect the way that post-9/18/15 buyers were treated. Yes, I know that it's part of the court-approved notice, but it's still an oversimplification. It doesn't help that the FTC consent order and the class action settlement agreement are inconsistent on this point.

Under both agreements, there was a pool of money set aside for Eligible Sellers. Eligible Sellers who filed timely and complete claims were paid out of that pool, and received half the restitution that an owner would have received.

For at least some post-9/18/15 buyers (and this is where the FTC and the CAS differ), restitution is 50% plus a proportion of the remaining 50% equal to the proportion of the Sellers' pool that remained after all the sellers were paid. There was 56% of that pool left, 56% of 50% is 28%, so post-9/18/15 buyers* received 78% of the total restitution amount.

I repeat that there's no scenario under any of the 2-liter settlement agreements where the owner of a car splits the restitution with the former owner of that car. There just isn't. The notice makes it sound like there is, but to that extent, it's wrong.

* Actually, 9/18/15-6/28/16 buyers--buyers after 6/28/16 have been receiving full restitution, which is what the FTC consent order requires. Under the CAS, they'd receive the same as any other post-9/18/15 buyers.
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Old May 10th, 2017, 11:49   #33
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Originally Posted by duratitus View Post
^^^ Maybe you never actually read the court approved Notice.....

I may be stuck, but rebuilt and salvage title cars are included in the claims.....

(See question #9 and #11 of the Approved Exhibit 3 - Long Form Notice)

They have bought other salvage/rebuilt cars in the past.

BTW: I started this post to see if there are others who are having similar responses from VW.
Let's get this thread back on topic.

I haven't received the same letter but also have problems getting branded titles approved the past several weeks. Perhaps we should do a roll call here on who else is experiencing the same problem. One recourse is to collectively pursue legal action...
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Old May 10th, 2017, 16:02   #34
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You guys should hold off on creating too much of a stink for like 2 days, until the 3.0 settlement gets final approval, before they toss something new into the 3.0 settlement about salvage title cars in the 3.0
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Old May 10th, 2017, 16:26   #35
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Let's get this thread back on topic.
I haven't received the same letter but also have problems getting branded titles approved the past several weeks. Perhaps we should do a roll call here on who else is experiencing the same problem. One recourse is to collectively pursue legal action...
Once again, there is legal counsel to serve these needs. You are the victim of VW's negligence. Get on vwcourtsettlement.com and get the number.
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Old May 10th, 2017, 16:34   #36
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Originally Posted by VWMark View Post
The problem is people are now digging up totaled cars to fix and sell them back. If there was no buyback, most of the cars would not be brought back on the road.

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^^^ Incorrect.

The real problem is that VW cheated when they made the cars to start with.
One of the hallmarks of a guilty conscience is lapsing into logical fallacies to prop up a justification. If the above reasoning was a valid defense, no one might ever be at fault for anything as long as they could point to another wrong that was done earlier in the causal chain, or one that was deemed worse. In simpler words, I say, "two wrongs don't make a right."

Look, it's clear that OP and others are operating within a legal window unanticipated by the settlement negotiators. But what is permissible in law and what is right are two different things. You can think you are doing a public good by helping make sure evil VW pays every last cent that they were liable to pay, and more. I say these kinds of ideas and this type logic is just a handy way of disguising from oneself an opportunism and potentially, a lack of moral core.
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Old May 10th, 2017, 17:44   #37
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Look, it's clear that OP and others are operating within a legal window unanticipated by the settlement negotiators...........
You are entitled to your opinion, however I think you are mistaken in assuming that the "Legal Window" as you call it was "Unanticipated" by negotiators.

I believe the "Window" was put there on purpose, because the intent of the settlement was to address any car that was on the road as of 9/18/2016, and is still operable, or could still be made operable.

I find it hard to believe that the brightest legal minds in the country would have made such an obvious mistake in their "Negotiation", especially when such a mistake would potentially cost VW millions of dollars.

It comes down to what the intent of the settlement was to address. - I think it was to address the number of cars that were driving down the road on a certain date, regardless of ownership; whereas, I believe you think it was to repay the owners of said vehicles, who owned them on a certain date for the loss of value, and misleading advertising.

- Actually, I think it was a mixture of both ideas.

What I find really interesting under the light of me "Gouging the system", is that non VW dealers, are included in the settlements, and receive full restitution for each affected vehicle on their lots.

- I've heard of dealers who were holding 200 cars or more, to send back to VW. In the light of that, you'd have a hard time convincing me that this was some oversight on the part of the settlement negotiators.

Last edited by duratitus; May 10th, 2017 at 17:51.
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Old May 10th, 2017, 17:53   #38
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Look, it's clear that OP and others are operating within a legal window unanticipated by the settlement negotiators.
I don't think this is at all clear, and aside from the points raised by @duratitus, you should consider that the the 3-liter settlement is worded the same way with respect to branded titles. If VW were seeing a significant number of these cars coming back using a loophole they didn't expect, don't you think they would have fought for further clarity in the 3-liter settlement, the way they did for the definition of "operable"?
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Old May 10th, 2017, 18:29   #39
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You are entitled to your opinion, however I think you are mistaken in assuming that the "Legal Window" as you call it was "Unanticipated" by negotiators.

I believe the "Window" was put there on purpose, because the intent of the settlement was to address any car that was on the road as of 9/18/2016, and is still operable, or could still be made operable.

I find it hard to believe that the brightest legal minds in the country would have made such an obvious mistake in their "Negotiation", especially when such a mistake would potentially cost VW millions of dollars.

It comes down to what the intent of the settlement was to address. - I think it was to address the number of cars that were driving down the road on a certain date, regardless of ownership; whereas, I believe you think it was to repay the owners of said vehicles, who owned them on a certain date for the loss of value, and misleading advertising.

- Actually, I think it was a mixture of both ideas.

What I find really interesting under the light of me "Gouging the system", is that non VW dealers, are included in the settlements, and receive full restitution for each affected vehicle on their lots.

- I've heard of dealers who were holding 200 cars or more, to send back to VW. In the light of that, you'd have a hard time convincing me that this was some oversight on the part of the settlement negotiators.


I'm pretty sure it wasn't to create a group of people trolling junkyards looking for zombie cars to redeem, or online hucksters, like greasy old timers on a beach with metal detectors, feeding vin numbers into computers looking to get a hit. If not you, apologies in advance.
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Old May 10th, 2017, 18:35   #40
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I don't think this is at all clear, and aside from the points raised by @duratitus, you should consider that the the 3-liter settlement is worded the same way with respect to branded titles. If VW were seeing a significant number of these cars coming back using a loophole they didn't expect, don't you think they would have fought for further clarity in the 3-liter settlement, the way they did for the definition of "operable"?


Not necessarily. Apples and oranges comparing the "operable" issue and this activity.
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Old May 10th, 2017, 21:45   #41
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I'm pretty sure it wasn't to create a group of people trolling junkyards looking for zombie cars to redeem, or online hucksters, like greasy old timers on a beach with metal detectors, feeding vin numbers into computers looking to get a hit. If not you, apologies in advance.
Is it also morally reprehensible to you that people buy junked Hondas, Toyotas, etc, in order to fix them up and put them back on the road, FOR A PROFIT?!?
The horror!
What about people who buy and sell stocks for a living! OMG - what scum! They find market inefficiencies, buying low and selling high. How can they live with themselves!!!
I'm happy with the one or two hits I've gotten and again, I am disappointed in myself that I had not looked into the settlement when first announced. Not being a TDI owner at the time, I was on the sidelines and assumed it would only apply to current owners.
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Old May 11th, 2017, 03:48   #42
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Is it also morally reprehensible to you that people buy junked Hondas, Toyotas, etc, in order to fix them up and put them back on the road, FOR A PROFIT?!?
The horror!
What about people who buy and sell stocks for a living! OMG - what scum! They find market inefficiencies, buying low and selling high. How can they live with themselves!!!
I'm happy with the one or two hits I've gotten and again, I am disappointed in myself that I had not looked into the settlement when first announced. Not being a TDI owner at the time, I was on the sidelines and assumed it would only apply to current owners.
I totally agree with you, after reading through this topic I sense a lot of ENVY from some members who say " you do it for a profit? OMG!" The whole capitalistic society is based on a principle that someone smarter, or luckier is gonna make profit somewhere and someone is gonna lose on the other hand, cmon people, get a life. The OP put a lot at stake here, money, sleepless nights, worrying. The salvage cars is still a grey area here, Ive seen cars that should have been rejected according to the wording in the settlement passing with no problems, and the other rejected for no reason, I think it depends on a mood of the worker who handles each individual case. Dont get envious.

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Old May 11th, 2017, 04:19   #43
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It may be zero sympathy, but I think its also 100 on the jealousy scale.
I know I wish I read the settlement docs when they first came out - could have made a nice side business out of finding market inefficiencies.

IMO it'd be the same as being jealous for those approved social security disability for "stress induced anxiety" and not having to work the rest of their lives.

I'm anxiously awaiting what the outcome of the OP situation is.

On a side note, the wife and I submitted all paper work on a clean titled no lien holder 2012 Passat last week, still haven't received a formal offer, this is over 5 days longer than when I submitted paperwork for the Jetta back in January. We did pay off the Passat and received the title the week before.
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Old May 11th, 2017, 04:24   #44
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IMO it'd be the same as being jealous for those approved social security disability for "stress induced anxiety" not having to work the rest of their lives.
Yeah, it would be sweet living on 800 bucks a month, for life ...Mark
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Old May 11th, 2017, 04:48   #45
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IMO it'd be the same as being jealous for those approved social security disability for "stress induced anxiety" not having to work the rest of their lives.
there's plenty of SSD fraud out there and i wouldn't term my response to that as being 'jealous' ... but more on topic for this forum's discussion area thread, i do find this whole shrieking moral outrage by a certain number of aggrieved VW owners quite laughable...

and if there are folks that can legally sell back TDIs and reap settlement money, who am i to say whether or not it is 'right'? those folks are putting out their own money and time and effort!

i'm just a satisfied TDI owner - i certainly don't feel cheated at all

[rolling eyes]

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