www.tdiclub.com

Economy - Longevity - Performance
The #1 Source of TDI Information on the Web!
Forums Articles Links Meets
Orders TDI Club Cards TDIFest 2016 Gone, but not forgotten VAG-Com List Unit Conversions TDIClub Chat Thank You

Order your TDIClub merchandise and help support TDIClub


Go Back   TDIClub Forums > VW TDI Discussion Areas > TDI Power Enhancements

TDI Power Enhancements Discussions about increasing the power of your TDI engine. i.e. chips, injectors, powerboxes, clutches, etc. Handling, suspensions, wheels, type discussion should be put into the "Upgrades (non TDI Engine related)" forum. Non TDI vehicle related postings will be moved or removed. Please note the Performance Disclaimer.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old January 7th, 2017, 04:17   #1
Alleslowbuged
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: NRW Germany
TDI(s): Golf MK2 TD
Default Camplate - Plunger - Nozzle Combination Diagrams

Hi,

MK1-83 send me a link to a diagram with measured camplate profile of a set of DI-camplates (I have also seen it in another thread here somewere, but can not find it again)

https://postimg.org/image/3lt7w2fbl/
I have done a lot of fettling with IDI pumps for VW and BMW and have also make some measurements and graphs for different combination of camplates and plungers. But with IDI engines the resistance of the nozzle is much lower so you can use the same nozzles for 75hp and 190hp.

As a result i start thinking if it would not be beneficial to try to cover the possible combinations of a set of "camplates - plunger - nozzle" a bit more analytic and try to come up with tables and graphs like:

- stroke vs. degree of pump rotation
- flow vs. degree of pump rotation
- flow vs. time
- mg / stroke (ecu unit) vs. stroke (camplate)
- mg / stroke (ecu unit) vs. mV (ecu output)
- expected injection pressure
- etc.

I am not sure if i will be able to come up with all this information in valid form, but i am sure i will be able to set up the needed excel file and calcuation code. So if some of you could provide some real life measurements to make some tuning for the flow efficiency and leakage rate, i can imagine that we could come up with decent graphs, which shoud be very helpfull to define the stup upfront an engine built.


to have the thread a bit mor shiny from the start up:

here is a pic from a 1.6TD vs 1.9 TDI (AFN) camplate
http://s702.photobucket.com/user/eur...018-1.jpg.html


here is theoretical fuel vs stroke (simplified)
http://s702.photobucket.com/user/eur...t_ESP.jpg.html


here is theoretical fuel vs rotation angle (simplified)
http://s702.photobucket.com/user/eur...598f1.jpg.html
Best Regards
Alleslowbuged
P.S.

Here is a link to a "How to mod a mechanical injection pump"
(its german but there are a lot of pictures of all internal parts with decription)
http://www.golf1.info/forum/index.ph...ell-anleitung/

I have allready setup an excel file with some calculations for the mech. injection pump, which will also suit for the electronic pumps, as they are only a simpler copy of the mech. pumps and will add "nozzles" as additionally parts of the systems as first step.
Alleslowbuged is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 7th, 2017, 08:39   #2
named tintin
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: quebec, canada
TDI(s): golf tdi
Default

This is not all about fuel quantity, flow, pressure or etc... the key for a diesel engine is the duration of injection in Crank , the window where you can inject fuel is quite small, you don't only need more fuel, you need more fuel in that window.

For example, you can have an 12mm plunger with an IDI profiled camplate to get the same result as a more aggressive DI camplate with a 10mm plunger, you'll get the same quantity inside the same of duration, max quantity about the same too. Of course, a DI cam with 12mm is the best.

I've played a lot with this in the past, and the best Bosch camplate to use is the later AHU, ALH and auto ALH, there is some camplate that are more aggressive than that, but very hard to find, and from experience, they don't last as long when heavily sollicited. There's also the delivery valve to take into account, some of them will not pass more fuel than what they are designed for, you'll get in the ''hydro-lock'' territory.
named tintin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 7th, 2017, 09:56   #3
mk1-83
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Holland
Fuel Economy: 1:15
Default

De664 3.35 mm lift almost same profiel as de143
De681 3.4 lift bit more agressiver

Im drive 4 year long with oem 12mm and de143 to 5700 rpm
__________________
Lupo 1.9 tdi
H-beam, 1:17 cr, 12mm pump,dss-r.360,gtb2365 vklr.
300+ HP 500 nm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1h3bxhWZcvk
mk1-83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 7th, 2017, 10:03   #4
mk1-83
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Holland
Fuel Economy: 1:15
Default

https://postimg.org/image/pvie8rogx/
__________________
Lupo 1.9 tdi
H-beam, 1:17 cr, 12mm pump,dss-r.360,gtb2365 vklr.
300+ HP 500 nm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1h3bxhWZcvk
mk1-83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 7th, 2017, 10:05   #5
mk1-83
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Holland
Fuel Economy: 1:15
Default

https://postimg.org/image/685so7g07/
__________________
Lupo 1.9 tdi
H-beam, 1:17 cr, 12mm pump,dss-r.360,gtb2365 vklr.
300+ HP 500 nm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1h3bxhWZcvk
mk1-83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 7th, 2017, 10:06   #6
mk1-83
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Holland
Fuel Economy: 1:15
Default

De660 from avia a80 100kw
__________________
Lupo 1.9 tdi
H-beam, 1:17 cr, 12mm pump,dss-r.360,gtb2365 vklr.
300+ HP 500 nm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1h3bxhWZcvk
mk1-83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 7th, 2017, 11:10   #7
mk1-83
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Holland
Fuel Economy: 1:15
Default

DE637 from cummins 4bt 12mm head have 3.2 mm lift
DE643 from iveco 2.8 12mm head have 3.2mm lift
DE657 from lt 2.8 mexico 12mm head and 3.2mm lift

It looks like all 12mm ve pumps for cars have 3.2mm lift
Only the DE664 from kia have 3.35mm lift
De681 from perkins generator have 3.4mm lift with 12mm head
DE660 from Avia a80 have agressive profiel and 3.4 lift 12mm head
__________________
Lupo 1.9 tdi
H-beam, 1:17 cr, 12mm pump,dss-r.360,gtb2365 vklr.
300+ HP 500 nm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1h3bxhWZcvk
mk1-83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 7th, 2017, 11:57   #8
Alleslowbuged
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: NRW Germany
TDI(s): Golf MK2 TD
Default

@ named tintin

yes for sure, it all about transient behaviour not maximum absolut fuel amount. Beside the old 1.6 pumps with 9,0mm plunger and soft camplate (2,2 or 2,5mm stroke) all combination can easily provide the needed fuel for more than 220kW even with poor engine efficiency. A TDI pump with 12mm plunger could theoretical provide fuel for more than 400kW (only speaken for the pump alone)

The diagrams from the first post did show exactly what you described.
As example:
For IDI engines the optimum combination from my expirience is AAZ-camplate (3,05 mm stroke and approximate 19 lobe angle) with 11mm plunger, but you get nearly the same flowrates with an AFN-camplate (3,1mm stroke and approximate 28 lobe angle) and 9,0 mm plunger or TD-camplate (2,2 mm stroke and approximate 16 lobe angel).

I was running my AAZ with the TD / 12mm combination and the engine runs easily above 6000rpm and provide decent power to up 5500 rpm+, but you could not use the same combination for TDI, as the flow rate would way to low (equal to a TDI pump with an 9,0mm plunger downgrade). The issue is, that a TDI / 12mm combination will be limited for revs, due to dynamic behaviour of the plunger (inertia). So to build a pump for an VE TDI and 6000rpm is a diffrent story and all this is, what my idea was for this thread. I would like to come up with some "hard numbers" as addition and in line with the group experience, which is availabe here in the Forum. Due to the fact that the TDI have the possibility to log a number of engine and pump measurements at the same time, i hope it will be possible to tune a code to be able to predict roughly the behaviour of the system, before running it.

@MK1-83
thanks

Best Regards
Alleslowbuged
Alleslowbuged is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 7th, 2017, 12:05   #9
mk1-83
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Holland
Fuel Economy: 1:15
Default

mine 12mm pump revs to 5700 rpm with de143 3.3mm lift camplate im use 2 pd liftpumps and pd fuelcooler
__________________
Lupo 1.9 tdi
H-beam, 1:17 cr, 12mm pump,dss-r.360,gtb2365 vklr.
300+ HP 500 nm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1h3bxhWZcvk
mk1-83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 7th, 2017, 23:54   #10
GOFAST
Member
 
GOFAST's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: nederland
TDI(s): vento afn
Default

interesting thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by named tintin View Post
I've played a lot with this in the past, and the best Bosch camplate to use is the later AHU, ALH and auto ALH, there is some camplate that are more aggressive than that, but very hard to find, and from experience, they don't last as long when heavily sollicited.
how about 2 stoke oil as addition to the diesel ?
that's what I do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by named tintin View Post
There's also the delivery valve to take into account, some of them will not pass more fuel than what they are designed for, you'll get in the ''hydro-lock'' territory.
how can we mod that ?

I want a pump able to rev till 5700 rpm.
going to need it.
__________________
-----KEEP ON MODIFYING-----
GOFAST is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 8th, 2017, 00:58   #11
mk1-83
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Holland
Fuel Economy: 1:15
Default

I don't run 2 stroke oil good fuel feed to pump and cool fuel and don't drive like a raped monkey

For the delivery valves I read something about dv from AG30 pump ?

http://www.dieseltruckresource.com/f...-about-295548/


valves:

http://www.dieseltruckresource.com/f...-172432/page2/

ve pump info working order :

http://www.dieseltruckresource.com/f...ration-231914/
__________________
Lupo 1.9 tdi
H-beam, 1:17 cr, 12mm pump,dss-r.360,gtb2365 vklr.
300+ HP 500 nm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1h3bxhWZcvk

Last edited by mk1-83; January 8th, 2017 at 02:31.
mk1-83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 8th, 2017, 15:43   #12
Alleslowbuged
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: NRW Germany
TDI(s): Golf MK2 TD
Default

Hi,

regarding the delivery valves, are you sure that the information from dieseltruckresource are regarding DI pumps. The delivery from IDI and DI pumps do not have the same design.

The IDI delivery valves looks like the ones shown in the second and third thread you posted. There are two IDI designs:

First is short plug with non return plunger - spring
When they close, at the end of the injection period, they enlarge the volume between the delivery valve and the injection nozzle, which causes a sudden and safe close of the injection nozzle. They also avoid that the pressure in the injection line is decreased to much and keep seomething like 60-75 bar (can't remeber) in the injection line.

Second is long plug with non return plunger - sping and flow restrictor (orifice)
They do the same as the first one, but the additionally orifice avoid, that the shock wave, caused by the closing of the nozzle, will be reflected by the non return valve in the delivery valve and runs back to the nozzle and open it again.

Both versions are also used with an additionally build in throttling effect, due to the shape of the non valve plunger, which causes less fuel flow at higher rpm. I know that this is used in some AAZ-pumps for example.

For IDI there are two design i know:

First is short plug with non return plunger -spring and a second small piston.
I do not know what is the theory behind this design, but found it in some injection pumps for Iveco engines. I assume that the design is similiar to the long plug IDI delivery valve and i know that IDI engine will not run properly with these delivery valves.

(you can find pictures of the three delivery valves described above, here:
http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/500/VW-TDI-R.pdf

Second is short plug and you can not disassemble it easly

I do not have a picture available, so this is based on memory and Bosch - "Kantengesteuerte Diesel-Verteilereinspritztechnik" - Gelbe Reihe - Ausgabe 2002

This is version which is used in VW TDI pumps, as far as i know and the design is called "equal pressure" delivery valves. The design caused, that the resultant line pressure after the end of the injection period can be set to a choosen setpoint (e.g. 60 bar), by adjusting the preload of an additionally non return valve (against flow direction). An IDI engine will also not run properly with these valves.


Regarding the flow curves for different camplate / plunger combination i adjusted my calculation code (last edited in 2013) to use the camplate stroke vs. degree of rotation measurements, as provided by MK1-83. This causes some deviation to the diagrams from my firts post, especially for the steeper TDI camplates, as the "real" smooth pick-up ramp is more differential to the mean steep ange.

I also used this document (provided by TDI-Meister):
http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/500/VW-TDI-R.pdf
and try to recalculate the stated data for the stock and stage-3 setup of the AFN engine. I have completed the pump, but have to add the nozzle to get a more realistic overall view. In the moment the calculation shows that the theoretical injection duration at rated load / speed is 17,2 (stock) and 20,8 crank rotation, but in the document they speak about 36 crank rotation.

My calculation is actually based on an assumed volumetric efficiency (ve) of 80% (see this as an start value, i do not have any specific information in the moment for guessing the "corrected" value). To bring the injection duration to the stated 36 CA i would need an ve of 33%, which is unrealistic. Second is that i have not included any typ of pre-stroke, which delays the injection start to the more steep shape of the camplate.

My next step is to make a simple approach for the resultant injection pressure and generate a table with flow vs. time for different nozzle sizes and injection pressures. I know this table must be temperature sensitiv but i think it would be better to add this latter with a factor.

@MK1-83
Do you have infos for the prehub of specific high-pressure plunger?

Best Regards
Alleslowbuged

P.S.
I will probably post the revised flow diagrams tomorrow, with changed flow unit to mg / stroke (engine), to make it comparable to the ecu values.
Alleslowbuged is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 9th, 2017, 00:59   #13
mk1-83
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Holland
Fuel Economy: 1:15
Default

Hi what do you mean pre hub of do you mean the kf and k setting of the pump head ?
The injection degrees I'm think they mean crank degrees not pump because the ratio is 2:1 crank to pump
__________________
Lupo 1.9 tdi
H-beam, 1:17 cr, 12mm pump,dss-r.360,gtb2365 vklr.
300+ HP 500 nm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1h3bxhWZcvk
mk1-83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 9th, 2017, 12:14   #14
Alleslowbuged
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: NRW Germany
TDI(s): Golf MK2 TD
Default

Hi,

preload is an option for the plunger design to increase high rpm performance. In this case the plunger has a circular groove in the near of the plunger tip, whichs conects all longitudinal "out slots".

Here is a picture with two plunger, left is 10 mm plunger from BMW E34 525TDS (design approximate 1990 - 1995) and right the equal 10 mm plunger from an BMW E28 524TD (design approximate 1978-1980).



The circular groove allows the fuel to flow back to the low pressure area at the beginning of the working hub, so the high pressure area stays at a constant pressure and the injection period is not started. After the plunger stroke has increased to a certain point (dependent on the position of the channel in the head, the position of the circular groove in the plunger and the k (k1) value), the circular groove is not longer connected to low pressure area and the injection period will start (nozzle will open slightly later). Because the camplate lobe shape is so soft in the start area, this causes a much more rapit pressure increase and therefore shorten the injection duration significant.

As example, according to your camplate diagram, the first 0,3 mm of stroke will need approximate 11,6 of crank rotation, but the next 0,3 mm stroke will only need 4,4 of crank rotation. So starting the injection prozess after 0,3 mm of prehub would safe 7,2 of crank rotation for the same fuel amount.


The TDS plunger also has additionally longitunal slots, which will help to fill up the high pressure area between the injection sequnences, because at high rpms the high velocity fuel flow will suck fuel out of the high pressure after the dumping bush opens to the low pressure area.

here are detailed pictures of both plungers (old and new)






and just because i like pictures, here a comparision of 524TD / 525TDs and Iveco sixclinder camplates.





Best Regards
Alleslowbuged

P.S.
MK1-83, do you remeber if the plunger in my 12mm plump has this circular groove?
Alleslowbuged is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 9th, 2017, 12:49   #15
mk1-83
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Holland
Fuel Economy: 1:15
Default

Hi yes no groove on plunjer, its proven by zolta kiss that its not good.

Also look at the different sized spill ports in the plunjer, the 10mm tdi have hole with small box shape part, the cummins 12mm have hole and slot like picture

I prefer kf 8.8/9.0 and k 3.6/3.8 so you have good top end fueling and fairly safe K.
I have made a pump test bench its still in develoments stage but the diesel head gets fairly hot when its on work. so a fuel cooler is really good thing in high rpm 12mm head.

https://goo.gl/photos/SLaDDYsfrgxDXkED6

https://goo.gl/photos/MxjUASgzDb5wDcXy8

mine new project

https://goo.gl/photos/vd6Fu3VUFicK6wtB9

10 mm oem pump head size

https://goo.gl/photos/kkFt7zMDS9PyLZCM9

plunjer size

https://goo.gl/photos/zM6anWX8x5YNW3zZ8

some camplates to test

https://goo.gl/photos/vZuWdERpmEwfFEkD7
__________________
Lupo 1.9 tdi
H-beam, 1:17 cr, 12mm pump,dss-r.360,gtb2365 vklr.
300+ HP 500 nm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1h3bxhWZcvk

Last edited by mk1-83; January 9th, 2017 at 13:08.
mk1-83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
camplate dti-vs tdi mk1-83 TDI Power Enhancements 16 October 17th, 2016 07:49
WTB: 1 Bosio Sprint 520 nozzle or plunger Turb0 Private TDI Items for Sale/Wanted 1 March 24th, 2016 15:08
IP camplate position Satiro TDI Power Enhancements 7 March 23rd, 2014 14:49
Camplate advice Aidan TDI Power Enhancements 1 November 19th, 2012 11:15
injector/nozzle combination pd150 mrspend TDI Power Enhancements 12 January 1st, 2011 07:00


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:57.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright - TDIClub Online LTD - 2017
Contact Us | Privacy Statement | Forum Rules | Disclaimer
TDIClub Online Ltd (TDIClub.com) is not affiliated with the VWoA or VWAG and is supported by contributions from viewers like you.
1996 - 2017, All Rights Reserved
Page generated in 0.20472 seconds with 10 queries
[Output: 140.42 Kb. compressed to 119.34 Kb. by saving 21.08 Kb. (15.01%)]