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TDI Power Enhancements Discussions about increasing the power of your TDI engine. i.e. chips, injectors, powerboxes, clutches, etc. Handling, suspensions, wheels, type discussion should be put into the "Upgrades (non TDI Engine related)" forum. Non TDI vehicle related postings will be moved or removed. Please note the Performance Disclaimer.

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Old January 9th, 2017, 19:23   #46
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For common rail fueling, definitely start looking at the Diesel truck crowds. There are modified CP3's that support just shy of 1khp.. A stock one on a Cumins or Duramax is good for 600+hp. Another popular mod is dual CP's. The point is you could look into mounting one of these. Cumins are gear driven and the Duramax is externally belt driven so your drive options are covered with a little custom bracketry.
While a mechanical pumped diesel can do 1500-2500hp, at those numbers its better suited to full throttle delivery..i.e. pulling sports. At 1500hp a CR motor can do it as well but with more precise fuel control translating into better drivability on more of a road course type throttling. In any case VW or pulling machine... it's response comes down to the turbo's ability to light the fuel...and the fuels ability to spool the turbo...which is greatly enhanced through a CR's fuel maps instead of just a mech pumps camplate.

I will say this.... I had an F350 with a CR cumins in it, I actually built 2 and one made Diesel Power 3x and Diesel power.. I have pulled more cabs on Ford diesels than I want to admit, and have busted enough knuckles on the Duramaxe's to claim a prize fighter title... and one thing I have learned about a common rail versus anything mechanical... when you have 26k + psi of fuel waiting at an injector for a signal to fire.... things can go bad extremely fast when they do... and they do! Injectors are the biggest failure on them. A 2 micron fuel filter is mandatory and even at that its minimal insurance. When an injector sticks for just a moment imagine the amount of fuel that is dumped in the cylinder. it doesn't take hardly anything to crack a piston or melt a modern CR diesel. Even Gasoline common rail direct injection is learning about this buzzkiller. And that is with OEM injectors... Now consider the aftermarket injectors that are being used.... you sure best hope the guy putting them together wasn't having a bad day or was mentally on siesta when yours were built!!

So given the intention is a race motor where the duty cycle will be pushing near 100% compared to a medium duty diesel in a light duty truck seeing 35% DC loads... I guess it is a good thing these are super cheap to replace because while the goal can be obtained...its likely your going to be replacing it.

That's just a couple more considerations to add up when you consider the type of racing you plan on doing with a CR diesel. However don't mistake that for being discouraging as I am all for it as long as you know what your getting into.

Quote:
Originally Posted by v8 coupe View Post
OK having recently looked into this very thing for my build which is going to TDIsyncro's level I haven't found much that doesn't require a completely different everything that we don't have lots of here in the USA.
The CJAA head has some major restrictions but those are fairly easy to solve if you aren't needing to base emissions. Issue #1 is the swirl ports, these are there simply for emissions and at higher power and those higher boost they are way too much. The simplest solution for them is to heavily port those ports (1 per cylinder) and remove a lot of the swirl port to basically make it a fill port. Issue #2 is the intake flaps in the intake. people have removed these from the intakes with fairly good results, but i am going to build a new intake completely. Removing the flaps in the intake and heavily porting swirl port will take care of the first 2 issues. The 3rd issue is the fill port not being quite big enough to really fill the cylinder well. I already had 2 sets of .5mm oversized valves with longer tips made for the CJAA heads and had my cams reground by Geoff at Colt cams so I have both of those taken care of. I also have upgraded valves and retainers to allow for slightly more RPM and to keep the valves closed at boost pressures over 50PSI.
The CKRA head and CUAA head is completely different and as such require the ECUs to go with them. The head has 2 cams similar to the CJAA heads, but each cam isn't just intake or exhaust they both control both sides. They use the cam timing to do cylinder swirl and those can't be used on the CJAA bottom ends. The engines also from what I was told have reservoirs inside the engine and valves in them to control coolant flow unlike the older CJAA engines.
There is my 2 cents on this since I am looking to go another 100HP past that 350HP you are looking to get. I fully believe this engine has that possibility as it has been done in the 16v PD engine and the CR has so much more fueling capability than that engine does. The biggest issues you are going to have is the injectors will need to be completely overhauled with bigger nozzles I suggest looking into Diesel truck places as those guys are getting into the level of HP/L you and me are shooting for. The other thing is the HPFP the CP4.1 is in no way capable of supplying enough fuel and rail pressure to do that much HP. I am still not sure on what the best option is for a different HPFP is the CUAA at 240PS uses a CP4.2 and with a stage 1 or 1+ tune is at 300PS. Pushing the CR140 past the 240whp range is going to take some serious work, but can be done.
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Old January 11th, 2017, 05:28   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macradiators.com View Post
For 250 you only need the big turbo, ic and exhaust. why would you bother touching the head?
Multiple independent tunes all over europe, from 270 to 284 on stock pump
Price is ridiculous at 4500$ for 4 nozzles , you only need to spend 600 to transform your injectors in CZ..they do it if you know the right people.

Come on, we have discussed this to death.
Stock head stock pump never does 270bhp :-)


For anyone who hasn't seen it, we are running GTB2260, CP3, Intercooler/Hardpipe, Swirl Flap delete, Revo TFSI Intake
At around 250bhp lambda gets stuck at 1.1 - out of air.
With v26 ECU Tune we ran 255bhp and 435ftlb - see my build thread below for further details. Flatline at 255bhp from 3000rpm to 5000 redline.
Lack of airflow causing restriction.

Myself and Mac are both pushing these engines. I believe we will be both over 300bhp soon.
We both have ported head, cams, bigger injectors, etc

My build thread will be updated when we have fitted the head.
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Last edited by xjay1337; January 11th, 2017 at 05:33.
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Old January 11th, 2017, 17:31   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigtoy302 View Post
https://blackhazeworkshop.com/en/par...tdi_cr140.html

Found this on the Googles. Looks promising.

This guy's my friend, we tested the firad nozzle but with poor result and degradation over a short time. My opinion on this is that you cannot swap nozzle on CR injector like we were doing on old VE and PD system, or maybee just those nozzle are not up to the task.

They sent stock nozzle to a cummins performance shop to 20% enlarge the stock nozzle, with good result, but the gain is marginal so far.
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Old January 11th, 2017, 18:26   #49
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The north american Bin5 ULEV cars have additional "hidden" limitations that the Euro cars do not. Applying the same techniques will not get the same result.

I guarantee that any tuner who is reselling files from a "euro" source is seriously hamstringed.

Likewise you can't apply diesel truck stuff.
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Old January 11th, 2017, 18:49   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrchill View Post
The head from a passat (CKRA) is better to start off with. The head that breaths the best stock is the CUAA. That is a European passat tdi. Comes with 240 hp stock, full emissions. If I were going to go nuts with a build...I would start with that engine. There are tremendous benefits to it.
How about the head on the CRUA in the Golfs? Anybody been able to take a close look inside these?
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Old January 11th, 2017, 21:03   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xjay1337 View Post
Come on, we have discussed this to death.
Stock head stock pump never does 270bhp :-)


For anyone who hasn't seen it, we are running GTB2260, CP3, Intercooler/Hardpipe, Swirl Flap delete, Revo TFSI Intake
At around 250bhp lambda gets stuck at 1.1 - out of air.
With v26 ECU Tune we ran 255bhp and 435ftlb - see my build thread below for further details. Flatline at 255bhp from 3000rpm to 5000 redline.
Lack of airflow causing restriction.

Myself and Mac are both pushing these engines. I believe we will be both over 300bhp soon.
We both have ported head, cams, bigger injectors, etc

My build thread will be updated when we have fitted the head.

You say your out of air. Isn't the GTB2260 about maxed? I would think you need a larger turbo after porting the head and doing cams?

What are you doing for injectors?
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Old January 11th, 2017, 21:08   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by All Stock View Post
For common rail fueling, definitely start looking at the Diesel truck crowds. There are modified CP3's that support just shy of 1khp.. A stock one on a Cumins or Duramax is good for 600+hp. Another popular mod is dual CP's. The point is you could look into mounting one of these. Cumins are gear driven and the Duramax is externally belt driven so your drive options are covered with a little custom bracketry.
While a mechanical pumped diesel can do 1500-2500hp, at those numbers its better suited to full throttle delivery..i.e. pulling sports. At 1500hp a CR motor can do it as well but with more precise fuel control translating into better drivability on more of a road course type throttling. In any case VW or pulling machine... it's response comes down to the turbo's ability to light the fuel...and the fuels ability to spool the turbo...which is greatly enhanced through a CR's fuel maps instead of just a mech pumps camplate.
I will say this.... I had an F350 with a CR cumins in it, I actually built 2 and one made Diesel Power 3x and Diesel power.. I have pulled more cabs on Ford diesels than I want to admit, and have busted enough knuckles on the Duramaxe's to claim a prize fighter title... and one thing I have learned about a common rail versus anything mechanical... when you have 26k + psi of fuel waiting at an injector for a signal to fire.... things can go bad extremely fast when they do... and they do! Injectors are the biggest failure on them. A 2 micron fuel filter is mandatory and even at that its minimal insurance. When an injector sticks for just a moment imagine the amount of fuel that is dumped in the cylinder. it doesn't take hardly anything to crack a piston or melt a modern CR diesel. Even Gasoline common rail direct injection is learning about this buzzkiller. And that is with OEM injectors... Now consider the aftermarket injectors that are being used.... you sure best hope the guy putting them together wasn't having a bad day or was mentally on siesta when yours were built!!
So given the intention is a race motor where the duty cycle will be pushing near 100% compared to a medium duty diesel in a light duty truck seeing 35% DC loads... I guess it is a good thing these are super cheap to replace because while the goal can be obtained...its likely your going to be replacing it.
That's just a couple more considerations to add up when you consider the type of racing you plan on doing with a CR diesel. However don't mistake that for being discouraging as I am all for it as long as you know what your getting into.
I have a Cummins in my F350 also.

The engine is not going to be held wide open all the time. I don't think it will be a issue. Off-road racing so can be either wide open or not in the tight technical stuff.

I've seen many common rail cummins melt down from stuck injectors but they were all high mileage engines. You don't see Duramax's melting pistons like the Cummins even know the lb7 likes to eat injectors.
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Old January 12th, 2017, 07:27   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigtoy302 View Post
You say your out of air. Isn't the GTB2260 about maxed? I would think you need a larger turbo after porting the head and doing cams?

What are you doing for injectors?
That's what I think too, you should be able to compensate with higher pressure to some extend if the turbo is still effective at higher pressure.

However, when a value is flat lined like that, this look more like of a software limiting, even that the euro software are much more easier to work on, they are still very complex.
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Old January 12th, 2017, 07:44   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KERMA View Post
The north american Bin5 ULEV cars have additional "hidden" limitations that the Euro cars do not. Applying the same techniques will not get the same result.

I guarantee that any tuner who is reselling files from a "euro" source is seriously hamstringed.

Likewise you can't apply diesel truck stuff.
Right, that's why I'm overwriting a lot of these tune on here, this goes hands on hands with what I've said in another post about the falling torque, then you see complaint about high EGT, no more power past 3500rpm, etc... I've seen a 2260 tune on that structure, a total fiasco, the guy is giving **** to the shop, unfortunately with reason.
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Old January 12th, 2017, 07:54   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KERMA View Post
The north american Bin5 ULEV cars have additional "hidden" limitations that the Euro cars do not. Applying the same techniques will not get the same result.

I guarantee that any tuner who is reselling files from a "euro" source is seriously hamstringed.

Likewise you can't apply diesel truck stuff.
Maybe my question should be is, can the stock US ECU be tuned to get me to my goal? I would really hate having to drop $4k on a standalone ECU.

Right now all my experience is with Duramaxes and Cummins.
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Old January 12th, 2017, 08:03   #56
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I imagine it can. The issue is and always has been finding the correct maps to unlock the non emissions potential. Standalone may be easier if the current tuners cannot locate and modify all the correct maps to effectively unleash the potential of these engines.
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Old January 12th, 2017, 10:24   #57
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Originally Posted by Bigtoy302 View Post
You say your out of air. Isn't the GTB2260 about maxed? I would think you need a larger turbo after porting the head and doing cams?
What are you doing for injectors?
Not a turbo issue.
2260 is good for 280-290 in theory.

If you look at my build thread, my last test we had request lambda 0.9.
Turbo was doing 2.7bar on this experimental tune as opposed to 2.4 on my v24 tune.

No improvement in power, at all. And despite requested lambda being 0.9 we did not get near, it did not make meaningful improvement on previous tune (1.1 normal vs 1.06-1.08 on v25).

We have a larger turbo to go on anyway when head is back.
I have larger injectors as well to be fitted and some other nice bits and bobs.

I am at the limit of the CR head, it is 100% not a software limit. Have you seen WRC and GT car inlet limiters and what that does to a cars power graph?

We have seen the cylinder head when it was being ported.

To say its restricted, especially the inlet side, is an understatement.
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Old January 12th, 2017, 11:14   #58
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The heads a heavily shrouded. I posted that years ago. I have a ton of pix of before and after. Definitely something that needs to be addressed in cars attempting 250+
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Old January 12th, 2017, 15:38   #59
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Would be nice to see your car Jamie on other dyno as well. will take mine to 2 different ones.
1 for the tune, 1 to check and compare
Would like to see what numbers that dyno gives for declared values.. how they compare.
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Old January 13th, 2017, 02:53   #60
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The only way to be sure is to run cars on the same dyno on the same day which will not happen unless we arrange some huge TDI day in Europe.

We have PROVEN with logs, data analysis and dyno run that headflow is an issue over 250.

We have already discussed
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread...=467364&page=2

Comparing Auron's Leon for example doing 13.5s 401m around 103mph, he claims 281cv approx 278bhp, he is DSG and very smokey.

I am (relatively) smoke free, manual gearbox, no LC, and do 13.6 at same terminal speed?
Our cars weigh similar amounts and have similar drag coefficient.

There is physically not enough space in the head. You have seen your own head.

Here's one of my runs at Santa Pod 1/4ml / 401m 13.68 @ 102mph / 165kph.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaDKnjR6LE4

Notice, almost lack of smoke. Clean daily tune with EGT protection. max 930c on track.
We had another tune in development that I'm confident could do 13.3 or 13.4 with the extra torque but we did not have time to control overboost, as it was supposed to test headflow by adding extra fuel and boost to aim for lambda request 0.9 (which we didn't reach) and is pointless to develop this tune further as there is new map that's being written in a month or two.

Auron has told me and shown me print outs for 1/8ml / 200m 8.99 at 83mph / 131kph
I have done 8.90 at same speed on my daily tune 255bhp/380lb ft ish.

Auron did 13,5@168kmh which is 104mph.

I also have a big wing adding downforce/drag

My car is 255bhp at an independant consistent dyno. So 278bhp is impossible.
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