www.tdiclub.com

Economy - Longevity - Performance
The #1 Source of TDI Information on the Web!
Forums Articles Links Meets
Orders TDI Club Cards TDIFest 2016 Gone, but not forgotten VAG-Com List Unit Conversions TDIClub Chat Thank You




Go Back   TDIClub Forums > VW TDI Discussion Areas > TDI Power Enhancements

TDI Power Enhancements Discussions about increasing the power of your TDI engine. i.e. chips, injectors, powerboxes, clutches, etc. Handling, suspensions, wheels, type discussion should be put into the "Upgrades (non TDI Engine related)" forum. Non TDI vehicle related postings will be moved or removed. Please note the Performance Disclaimer.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 26th, 2016, 07:48   #1
Bigtoy302
Newbie
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Eugene, OR
Default Common rail heads

I'm doing some research on possibly building a CJAA CR and keep hearing how the heads don't flow. I see people talking about a 180hp head that is better but I can't find any info on this. Engine code? Are they actually bigger?

I want to build a 350+hp CR for a off road project but it looks like the heads are a bottleneck. I'm not opposed to porting the stock head but just seeing if there is something better on the euro only stuff.
Bigtoy302 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 26th, 2016, 09:22   #2
ketchupshirt88
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: waupaca, WI
Fuel Economy: 40-42 with a lead foot.
Default

is there a particular reason you want to or have to use a CR? im not sure anyone has even bothered to make 350+ HP out of a CR... but its been done by multiple ppl on VE and PD engines so the big roadblocks have been figured out on those. just food for thought.

that being said, 350HP is ALOT to ask of a TDI because of its low RPM range. do you really need all that HP for off-road or are you more looking for torque? you can definitely get 400+ ftlbs of torque while only making 200-250HP. much more than that and you may have gearbox issues anyway...
__________________
2003 Jetta TDI - 11mm IP, R520s and FMIC from the Red Death, HE221W (shooting for 26PSI), 1.8T pancake, DIY 3" OMI, still working on the DIY tune... its a learning process.
1996 Passat TDI - "Red Death" RETIRED. Had: Malone stg 1, 11mm IP, R520s, GT15/17 hybrid, FMIC, ETC
1997 Passat TDI wagon - Running donor or beater for sale, rough body
ketchupshirt88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 26th, 2016, 10:01   #3
Bigtoy302
Newbie
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Eugene, OR
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ketchupshirt88 View Post
is there a particular reason you want to or have to use a CR? im not sure anyone has even bothered to make 350+ HP out of a CR... but its been done by multiple ppl on VE and PD engines so the big roadblocks have been figured out on those. just food for thought.

that being said, 350HP is ALOT to ask of a TDI because of its low RPM range. do you really need all that HP for off-road or are you more looking for torque? you can definitely get 400+ ftlbs of torque while only making 200-250HP. much more than that and you may have gearbox issues anyway...
Two reasons. One the CR engines are cheap and plentiful around here and I want to see what I can make with one. I own a CNC machine/fab shop so I'm not worried about custom parts/mods.

Yes, 350hp is needed. Think 2500lb rocket!

Not worried about the transaxle. It will handle the torque. $$$$$

There are a few builds on here but nobody's finished them. I don't want to go as extreme as TDIsyncros build
Bigtoy302 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 26th, 2016, 10:02   #4
mrchill
TDIClub Enthusiast
Super Secret Diesel Ninja Vendor
w/Business number
 
mrchill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: MASS! home of THE WORLD SERIES CHAMPION RED SOX! x 2!
Default

The head from a passat (CKRA) is better to start off with. The head that breaths the best stock is the CUAA. That is a European passat tdi. Comes with 240 hp stock, full emissions. If I were going to go nuts with a build...I would start with that engine. There are tremendous benefits to it.
__________________
How do you know you are alive if you are not miserable?

If you were traveling at the speed of light, and you turned your lights on......would anything happen?

What if the hokey pokey really is what it's all about?

You will get NOTHING! And you WILL be GRATEFUL!
mrchill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 26th, 2016, 11:27   #5
ketchupshirt88
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: waupaca, WI
Fuel Economy: 40-42 with a lead foot.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigtoy302 View Post
Two reasons. One the CR engines are cheap and plentiful around here and I want to see what I can make with one. I own a CNC machine/fab shop so I'm not worried about custom parts/mods.

Yes, 350hp is needed. Think 2500lb rocket!

Not worried about the transaxle. It will handle the torque. $$$$$

There are a few builds on here but nobody's finished them. I don't want to go as extreme as TDIsyncros build

as long as you know what you're getting into... haha

@ 2500lbs its prolly not going to be in the stock chassis... lol. So please make a build thread in the conversion section when you get a little ways into this. im lookin forward to seeing it.
__________________
2003 Jetta TDI - 11mm IP, R520s and FMIC from the Red Death, HE221W (shooting for 26PSI), 1.8T pancake, DIY 3" OMI, still working on the DIY tune... its a learning process.
1996 Passat TDI - "Red Death" RETIRED. Had: Malone stg 1, 11mm IP, R520s, GT15/17 hybrid, FMIC, ETC
1997 Passat TDI wagon - Running donor or beater for sale, rough body
ketchupshirt88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 26th, 2016, 13:14   #6
diffas
Veteran Member
 
diffas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Finland
Default

Lots a bs here. Sure your CR wont probably rev up to 8k, but something like 6k is nothing for tdi. Cams and valve springs needs to be upgraded and sure some porting wont hurt. Thing is to get big enough fuel pump and nozzles.
diffas is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 26th, 2016, 14:52   #7
ketchupshirt88
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: waupaca, WI
Fuel Economy: 40-42 with a lead foot.
Default

why BS? the engine that he is referring to as "cheap and available" in Eugene,OR has gotta be a CR140.

to make that into 350hp it would either need lots of torque or lots of rpms. 450@4k/5252=342 or 375@5K/5252=357 or 300@6K/5252=342 etc etc you guys know how to do the math...

either double the stock torque at 4k or hold onto 300ftlb all the way out to 6K.

those numbers are surely easier to get with the modern 16V DOHC engines than with my antique VE but hes still looking at 250% of the stock output and fuel is only a third of it.

you need lotsa fuel, enough air to burn it and the "millennium falcon factor" - as Han Solo says, *come on baby, hold together*
__________________
2003 Jetta TDI - 11mm IP, R520s and FMIC from the Red Death, HE221W (shooting for 26PSI), 1.8T pancake, DIY 3" OMI, still working on the DIY tune... its a learning process.
1996 Passat TDI - "Red Death" RETIRED. Had: Malone stg 1, 11mm IP, R520s, GT15/17 hybrid, FMIC, ETC
1997 Passat TDI wagon - Running donor or beater for sale, rough body
ketchupshirt88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 26th, 2016, 20:37   #8
Bigtoy302
Newbie
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Eugene, OR
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by diffas View Post
Lots a bs here. Sure your CR wont probably rev up to 8k, but something like 6k is nothing for tdi. Cams and valve springs needs to be upgraded and sure some porting wont hurt. Thing is to get big enough fuel pump and nozzles.
Yeah what bs? Here in the USA we have CR140's.
Bigtoy302 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 26th, 2016, 20:42   #9
Bigtoy302
Newbie
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Eugene, OR
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ketchupshirt88 View Post
why BS? the engine that he is referring to as "cheap and available" in Eugene,OR has gotta be a CR140.

to make that into 350hp it would either need lots of torque or lots of rpms. 450@4k/5252=342 or 375@5K/5252=357 or 300@6K/5252=342 etc etc you guys know how to do the math...

either double the stock torque at 4k or hold onto 300ftlb all the way out to 6K.

those numbers are surely easier to get with the modern 16V DOHC engines than with my antique VE but hes still looking at 250% of the stock output and fuel is only a third of it.

you need lotsa fuel, enough air to burn it and the "millennium falcon factor" - as Han Solo says, *come on baby, hold together*
Yes, I could use another engine and make way more power way cheaper but what fun is that? I like going outside the box.

TDI's sound good. I really don't want to listen to a ecotec or K24 scream all day.
Bigtoy302 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 26th, 2016, 22:04   #10
v8 coupe
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: bloomington, mn
Default

OK having recently looked into this very thing for my build which is going to TDIsyncro's level I haven't found much that doesn't require a completely different everything that we don't have lots of here in the USA.

The CJAA head has some major restrictions but those are fairly easy to solve if you aren't needing to base emissions. Issue #1 is the swirl ports, these are there simply for emissions and at higher power and those higher boost they are way too much. The simplest solution for them is to heavily port those ports (1 per cylinder) and remove a lot of the swirl port to basically make it a fill port. Issue #2 is the intake flaps in the intake. people have removed these from the intakes with fairly good results, but i am going to build a new intake completely. Removing the flaps in the intake and heavily porting swirl port will take care of the first 2 issues. The 3rd issue is the fill port not being quite big enough to really fill the cylinder well. I already had 2 sets of .5mm oversized valves with longer tips made for the CJAA heads and had my cams reground by Geoff at Colt cams so I have both of those taken care of. I also have upgraded valves and retainers to allow for slightly more RPM and to keep the valves closed at boost pressures over 50PSI.

The CKRA head and CUAA head is completely different and as such require the ECUs to go with them. The head has 2 cams similar to the CJAA heads, but each cam isn't just intake or exhaust they both control both sides. They use the cam timing to do cylinder swirl and those can't be used on the CJAA bottom ends. The engines also from what I was told have reservoirs inside the engine and valves in them to control coolant flow unlike the older CJAA engines.

There is my 2 cents on this since I am looking to go another 100HP past that 350HP you are looking to get. I fully believe this engine has that possibility as it has been done in the 16v PD engine and the CR has so much more fueling capability than that engine does. The biggest issues you are going to have is the injectors will need to be completely overhauled with bigger nozzles I suggest looking into Diesel truck places as those guys are getting into the level of HP/L you and me are shooting for. The other thing is the HPFP the CP4.1 is in no way capable of supplying enough fuel and rail pressure to do that much HP. I am still not sure on what the best option is for a different HPFP is the CUAA at 240PS uses a CP4.2 and with a stage 1 or 1+ tune is at 300PS. Pushing the CR140 past the 240whp range is going to take some serious work, but can be done.
__________________
2003 indigo blue Golf TDI Gone!
81 VW Caddy needing Some love!
91 Audi CQ AKA "Eleanor" my unicorn!
09 Rabbit S now a TDI AWD.
91 200 20vt Avant
v8 coupe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 27th, 2016, 06:29   #11
diffas
Veteran Member
 
diffas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Finland
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigtoy302 View Post
Yeah what bs? Here in the USA we have CR140's.
I was reffering to tomatoketchups claims about "low rev" range of tdi and therefore not getting power. That is bs. Like I said, some mods are required. Fueling is probably biggest problem.
diffas is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 27th, 2016, 07:17   #12
Bigtoy302
Newbie
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Eugene, OR
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by v8 coupe View Post
OK having recently looked into this very thing for my build which is going to TDIsyncro's level I haven't found much that doesn't require a completely different everything that we don't have lots of here in the USA.
The CJAA head has some major restrictions but those are fairly easy to solve if you aren't needing to base emissions. Issue #1 is the swirl ports, these are there simply for emissions and at higher power and those higher boost they are way too much. The simplest solution for them is to heavily port those ports (1 per cylinder) and remove a lot of the swirl port to basically make it a fill port. Issue #2 is the intake flaps in the intake. people have removed these from the intakes with fairly good results, but i am going to build a new intake completely. Removing the flaps in the intake and heavily porting swirl port will take care of the first 2 issues. The 3rd issue is the fill port not being quite big enough to really fill the cylinder well. I already had 2 sets of .5mm oversized valves with longer tips made for the CJAA heads and had my cams reground by Geoff at Colt cams so I have both of those taken care of. I also have upgraded valves and retainers to allow for slightly more RPM and to keep the valves closed at boost pressures over 50PSI.
The CKRA head and CUAA head is completely different and as such require the ECUs to go with them. The head has 2 cams similar to the CJAA heads, but each cam isn't just intake or exhaust they both control both sides. They use the cam timing to do cylinder swirl and those can't be used on the CJAA bottom ends. The engines also from what I was told have reservoirs inside the engine and valves in them to control coolant flow unlike the older CJAA engines.
There is my 2 cents on this since I am looking to go another 100HP past that 350HP you are looking to get. I fully believe this engine has that possibility as it has been done in the 16v PD engine and the CR has so much more fueling capability than that engine does. The biggest issues you are going to have is the injectors will need to be completely overhauled with bigger nozzles I suggest looking into Diesel truck places as those guys are getting into the level of HP/L you and me are shooting for. The other thing is the HPFP the CP4.1 is in no way capable of supplying enough fuel and rail pressure to do that much HP. I am still not sure on what the best option is for a different HPFP is the CUAA at 240PS uses a CP4.2 and with a stage 1 or 1+ tune is at 300PS. Pushing the CR140 past the 240whp range is going to take some serious work, but can be done.

I was thinking about milling off the intake portion of the head off to get in there for better porting like they do on the Cummins heads. Then just build a new aluminum intake. Need to get a head and see if there is enough meat to tap some holes for the intake.

My plan is to put the LB7 Duramax CP3 on it. Still need to look into custom injectors/nozzles. There are lots of places that do Cummins, Powerstroke and Duramax injectors so hopefully they can do these. I currently have lots Industrial injection parts on my 12v Cummins in my Ford. Maybe they will be interested.

Are you going single turbo or compounds?

Stock pistons?

I'm guessing your upgrading the rods?
Bigtoy302 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 27th, 2016, 07:40   #13
Bigtoy302
Newbie
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Eugene, OR
Default

https://blackhazeworkshop.com/en/par...tdi_cr140.html

Found this on the Googles. Looks promising.
Bigtoy302 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 27th, 2016, 11:03   #14
Macradiators.com
Veteran Member
 
Macradiators.com's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Romania
TDI(s): 2.0 CR 300hp
Default

It can be done. My build is going ok, just waiting for pieces to arrive to close the engine.
What started as a 300hp build is evolving into much more, stay tuned.
BKD 16v head which flows less than your CR head does 330-350hp, 400hp on extreme builds with porting + camshafts.
Porting the cyl head is the way to start as there are many restrictions on the intake side, so plenty of room for improvement.

6000$ for 4 nozzles, they must be fookin' crazy, i can buy the entire CUA 240hp engine for 2500€, jeez
__________________
CP3 Upgrade
100-200 Acceleration

Last edited by Macradiators.com; December 27th, 2016 at 15:14.
Macradiators.com is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 27th, 2016, 12:01   #15
turbobrick240
Veteran Member
 
turbobrick240's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: maine
Default

Very cool to see some injector options. That's $6000 canadian, so they are practically giving them away. Kidding. That's $4500 US, still way too much.
turbobrick240 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
DSG/Common Rail Help!?!?! mxracer291 VW MKVI-A6 Jetta Sedan (~ 2011+) 16 July 1st, 2016 08:46
common rail F/S ronbros TDI 101 7 August 23rd, 2012 05:11
Common Rail Drivbiwire TDI 101 1 June 23rd, 2006 06:15
common rail 03GOLFTDI19 VW MKIV-A4 TDIs (VE and PD) 8 September 19th, 2003 20:33
PD vs common rail Sacha TDI 101 3 September 14th, 2001 06:48


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:18.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright - TDIClub Online LTD - 2017
Contact Us | Privacy Statement | Forum Rules | Disclaimer
TDIClub Online Ltd (TDIClub.com) is not affiliated with the VWoA or VWAG and is supported by contributions from viewers like you.
1996 - 2017, All Rights Reserved
Page generated in 0.19148 seconds with 10 queries
[Output: 137.26 Kb. compressed to 116.03 Kb. by saving 21.23 Kb. (15.47%)]