Has anyone returned a stripped TDI yet?

bizzle said:

The court documents state condition doesn't matter. Some customers are taking that to the extreme and now VW is recognizing they miscalculated both the sheer numbers of turn-in customers and a relatively unique consumption pattern within US society (stripping useless items from a vehicle under the assumption someone somewhere will buy them for any amount is one example). I wouldn't be surprised if wholesale stripping is addressed at the next hearing.

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I don't believe the hearings are allowed to alter the agreed settlement. They just meet to discuss their progress...

bizzle said:

The court documents state condition doesn't matter. Some customers are taking that to the extreme and now VW is recognizing they miscalculated both the sheer numbers of turn-in customers and a relatively unique consumption pattern within US society (stripping useless items from a vehicle under the assumption someone somewhere will buy them for any amount is one example). I wouldn't be surprised if wholesale stripping is addressed at the next hearing.

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It might be addressed, but look at it this way,

To date VW has not been able to come up with a approved emission modification, and many people (myself included) are starting to really doubt that they will find one.

Even if they did find an approved modification, I think they will only modify the cars that are still owned by eligible owners. - If they'd do it to all the cars they bought back and tried to market them, they would flood the market with used TDI's.

The affects from flooding the market with used cars, after most ex-TDI owners have already purchased a different car would damage new VW car sales, - And that is where VW makes their money. Not on used cars.

So, I think they're going to be crushing the cars they buy back, even if they do get a fix approved.
I've spoken to several VW dealers who have told me that they personally beleive the cars will go to the crusher.

If they don't plan to market the cars anyway, there's no reason to believe the car's condition would affect the buyback.

tjsadler said:

I don't believe the hearings are allowed to alter the agreed settlement. They just meet to discuss their progress...

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Clarification of "condition" wouldn't be changing the terms but rather explaining an otherwise obvious conclusion: condition generally refers to the state of something, not whether it's missing (critical/essential) pieces

bizzle said:

Clarification of "condition" wouldn't be changing the terms but rather explaining an otherwise obvious conclusion: condition generally refers to the state of something, not whether it's missing (critical/essential) pieces

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Since there is no "condition" specification in the settlement agreement apart from "running under the power of its own TDI motor" any discussion about it would be adding a restriction to the settlement which (I'm not a lawyer but) I don't think is possible at this point.

I think the buyback specialists are clearly about as well informed as the folks who answer the calls at the call center. We'll see. I will definitely be testing the limits when I bring mine in but based on multiple conversations with the lawyers involved in the case "condition" is meaningless for the buyback.

Bizzle, I'm with you to a point.....

Could you refer me to the court documents that state condition doesn't matter?

tjsadler said:

I will definitely be testing the limits when I bring mine in but based on multiple conversations with the lawyers involved in the case "condition" is meaningless for the buyback.

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Mind posting a picture of your car's condition?

I do not have the documents in front of me but it should be as simple as downloading the agreement and searching for "condition."

I'm a professor of law but I believe Dan is a practicing attorney so he could probably answer this with more clarity, but a judge issuing a clarification would not normally be a new condition or alteration of a settlement proposal. In fact, I should have stated earlier that the progress meeting is intended for the judge to make an informed decision about any changes that need to be made. It is not merely for everyone to sit around chambers jaw-jacking about what they did or didn't do over the past month.

There are plenty of statements throughout the settlement agreement that would lead a reasonable person to conclude that the car would have to be in some form of condition above and beyond an engine strapped to a stripped unibody. For example, it needed to have been registered at a specific time, it couldn't have been totaled and pulled from a wrecking yard, and it needs to be able to drive under its own power (all pointing to roadworthiness). There are specific items that result in an increased settlement offer (navigation, pano roof, etc.). Clearly everyone sitting around the settlement table did not anticipate anyone removing everything bolted to the car and trying to turn it in like that so the settlement does not directly speak to that scenario.

You have a point, but if the goal of the whole process is to get the cars in violation off the road, then anything considered to be in a fixable condition should be eligible for buyback.

If it's in good enough shape to be fixed, and they will not let it be returned, then it could potentially be fixed and be back on the road without being in compliance with EPA regulations....

Edit:
I just did a search for "condition", and did not come up with anything, then I searched "Salvage" and here's what I found,

“Operable” means that the vehicle so described can be driven under its own 2.0-
liter TDI engine power. A vehicle is not Operable if it had a branded title of “Assembled,”
“Dismantled,” “Flood,” “Junk,” “Rebuilt,” “Reconstructed,” or “Salvaged” on September 18,
2015, and was acquired by any person or entity from a junkyard or salvage yard after
September 18, 2015.

duratitus said:

Mind posting a picture of your car's condition?

Save​

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I'll post it after the buyback.
The front is bashed in but runs and drives. I spoke to several of the lawyers who unanimously advised NOT fixing anything that wasn't engine or drivetrain related. They said that VW and the other parties decided not to make condition of the cars a factor other than what is specifically stated in the agreement. I would think that changing that would be big enough to warrant an entirely new opt out and comment period since it would materially alter the terms and open up a huge can of worms as to what condition the car had to be in at turn in.

Cars going to a crusher? Why? The only non-recyclable part is the engine. Plenty of demand for transmissions, doors, fenders, seats, etc. I expect VW will be selling some of them recycling yards - minus the engines.

Again, you talking about smashed body panels is a "condition" issue.

That's a completely different concern from dragging the car on to the lot on its axles sans body panels and interior.

If someone literally strips their car like some are suggesting here and then wants to "opt" out I don't think anyone is going to stop them. That said, the chances of that happening are so remote that it's ridiculous to speculate. Some wise guy is going to try and do it, the judge will issue an order that they don't have to accept something that wouldn't ordinarily qualify as a "car" and the wise guy will go home and put the wheels and body back on the car and the seats back in the car and bring it back to the dealership.

I'm tired of discussing this. It's so silly. When someone describes a used car as "rough condition" there isn't anyone who would think that accurately describes a "car" in two halves or sitting on its rotors without any interior. That's no longer "condition" since it's arguably not even a "car" anymore.

Take this one for example, wrong brand, but makes the point.


If it starts and can pull that mass forward, it meets the terms of operable.

I think the estate executor would show up at the buyback appointment for that Acura.

^^^ It has to operate in order to be operable......

The FTC Consent order states the definition of operable as:

“Operable” means that the vehicle so described can be driven under its own 2.0-
liter TDI engine power."

There's a difference between "Pulling a mass forward" and being driven ;-)

duratitus said:

^^^ It has to operate in order to be operable......

The FTC Consent order states the definition of operable as:

“Operable” means that the vehicle so described can be driven under its own 2.0-
liter TDI engine power."

There's a difference between "Pulling a mass forward" and being driven ;-)

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Hey now, that thing should run in a circle, hopelessly optimistic.

Oh, and they lived http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ne-passengers-remains-critical-condition.html

Page 13, item 21 of the Diesel Emissions Settlements booklet clearly states "your vehicle value will be determined on the "clean trade in" value for that vehicle including certain options as published in the September 2015 edition of the National Automotive Dealerss Association (NADA) Used Car Guide"

I don't know how any of that could be misinterpreted to make anyone feel that stripping a car before selling it is OK.

Virgil said:

Page 13, item 21 of the Diesel Emissions Settlements booklet clearly states "your vehicle value will be determined on the "clean trade in" value for that vehicle including certain options as published in the September 2015 edition of the National Automotive Dealerss Association (NADA) Used Car Guide"
I don't know how any of that could be misinterpreted to make anyone feel that stripping a car before selling it is OK.

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I don't know what you think that quote has to do with whether it's OK to strip the car. Would you mind explaining? Because it isn't saying the car has to be in "clean" condition; it's saying the car will be valued as if it's in clean condition.

I'd like to see someone chop off their roof (sawzall, grinder w/cutting wheel, etc.) behind the drivers seat, get some lumber, and make a sweet redneck pickup to take in for a buyback.

+1

If @virgil thinks he has the chops to be a lawyer, he shouldn't give up his day job.

DanB36 said:

I don't know what you think that quote has to do with whether it's OK to strip the car. Would you mind explaining? Because it isn't saying the car has to be in "clean" condition; it's saying the car will be valued as if it's in clean condition.

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Virgil said:

Page 13, item 21 of the Diesel Emissions Settlements booklet clearly states "your vehicle value will be determined on the "clean trade in" value for that vehicle including certain options as published in the September 2015 edition of the National Automotive Dealerss Association (NADA) Used Car Guide"

I don't know how any of that could be misinterpreted to make anyone feel that stripping a car before selling it is OK.

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How about flip it around. You paid $1k+ for HID headlights and get nothing for it in the settlement, should you just give back a $1000 option with nothing for it? Can repeat for various wheel combinations, and basically most of the options other than the sunroof, nav/fender radio, and auto trans.

It says "including certain options". I really fail to understand... well I fail to understand why you'd sell it back in the first place, but aside from that, I fail to understand why being paid (in most cases) MORE than the car's normal value BEFORE any news broke of this cheating is in some way "bad" for the vehicle owner in such a way as you'd want to further line your pockets by stripping the car. Or is it just a vindictive thing, and you want to do your part to kick a giant while it is down?

I think to the owners, Volkswagen is being MORE than fair in this deal. A lot of people are coming away with potentially having driven a nice new fuel efficient car for several years for free when it is all said and done.

bizzle said:

I believe Dan is a practicing attorney so he could probably answer this with more clarity

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I am practicing, but not in this field (and I want to be clear that I'm not representing nor giving legal advice to anyone here--that's what class counsel is for, or you can hire your own attorney if you choose). It will be interesting to see what comes of this, though. I wouldn't have a problem with a "clarification" from the court that the car has to be substantially complete, but if that's going to happen, it needs to be clear and come from the court, rather than VW just ad hoc deciding that it's the case.

Whether that's done or not, I think there will need to be some clarification on "operable." I don't read the requirements as saying the car has to be roadworthy (i.e., it would be safe and legal to drive an arbitrary distance on the roads, limited only by available fuel). Rather, I read it as a much more limited requirement:

• You can start the engine and it runs
• You can put the car in gear and it moves, both in forward and reverse
• You can steer the car in the desired direction

Of course, I have an obvious personal interest, since 7 Oct, in this being the correct answer, rather than a more restrictive "roadworthy" requirement, but I do think it's both a clearer and a more objective requirement.

I stripped mine down really far. Stole two of the black VW wheel inserts and the pulling tool because they work on my GTI.

oilhammer said:

It says "including certain options". I really fail to understand... well I fail to understand why you'd sell it back in the first place, but aside from that, I fail to understand why being paid (in most cases) MORE than the car's normal value BEFORE any news broke of this cheating is in some way "bad" for the vehicle owner in such a way as you'd want to further line your pockets by stripping the car. Or is it just a vindictive thing, and you want to do your part to kick a giant while it is down?
I think to the owners, Volkswagen is being MORE than fair in this deal. A lot of people are coming away with potentially having driven a nice new fuel efficient car for several years for free when it is all said and done.

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Just a question: Are you planning on selling back the common rail TDI(s) that you bought after the news broke? I plan on removing the Fender radio, the reverse camera and Panzer plate that I installed on mine. I don't want to let VW be fraudulently enriched...Mark

I am not selling back anything. I fixed up and resold to people who will continue to drive them. The current CR I have, a 2010 sedan with a DSG, I am hanging on to right now although I have a list of buyers ready I would just need to install a DPF delete kit and retune it as I did with most of the others. However, I want to wait and see what the "fix" if any, amounts to. Since this car has a bad DPF anyway.

But in any event, no it will not be sold back to Volkswagen regardless. It will be "fixed" by me and kept, "fixed" by me and sold to someone who actually wants it, or perhaps fixed by Volkswagen and kept or sold at a later date.

I am also in the last stages of buying a Sportwagon as well. It, too, will not be sold back to Volkswagen.

I have decided to show up at my buyback appointment about an hour early to replace my Kenwood head unit with the stock one that died. My sense is that cars with 120K+ miles on them are not worth fixing and headed for the crusher and there's no reason to have a perfectly good head unit with GPS, DVD, backup camera, etc. in there.

I turned my tdi in yesterday and was told point blank that if a car came in with major body damage or had been stripped of major body and or interior parts, they ( the buyback person at the dealership ) would not accept the car..... He has a special number to call, take pictures, send email pictures to, then discuss with higher ups. He said specifically there was a email send to all buyback people discussing this, and even pictures of a Golf TDI that was turned in missing the lights, grill and bumper.

The court order may say one thing, but if the buyback people don't want to accept your car, you will have a ton of hoops to jump through to get your way to to speak. Just look at how frustrated some are with payment mistakes from their buybacks, and having no one to really call to get solid answers or resolution.

I think if the car is missing the radio.... Or has minor body damage.... Maybe a cracked windshield... Is rolling on steel wheels.... Bald tires... Has some scratches.... Is dirty as hell..... Interior super dirty and trashy.... Etc.... All is fine. But you might be in for trouble if you try to turn in a car missing major parts such as doors or trunk lid, no exterior lighting, etc....

Myself, I serious considered taking stuff off my cars before turning in, But honestly its really not worth it. I don't have special lights, or rare alloy rims, or a nav system etc.... Sure there is some value in doors, seats, trunk lid, even stock light clusters etc... But Then I try to imagine how long it would take to market store and sell these things and all the trouble I would go through to do so. It isn't worth it to me. I am getting a WAY more than fair amount of money for my cars as it is. They got my 13 jetta back yesterday and only thing it was missing was the monster mats, sold those with the hitch to a friend with a gasser jetta. My 12 jetta will go back completely intact, even with the monster mats ( I have had those for sale for a low as 20$ on 4 different Facebook buy sell swap pages and craigslist without a single bite, screw it, its not worth my time to try to give away these things )

oilhammer said:

I am not selling back anything. I fixed up and resold to people who will continue to drive them. The current CR I have, a 2010 sedan with a DSG, I am hanging on to right now although I have a list of buyers ready I would just need to install a DPF delete kit and retune it as I did with most of the others. However, I want to wait and see what the "fix" if any, amounts to. Since this car has a bad DPF anyway.
But in any event, no it will not be sold back to Volkswagen regardless. It will be "fixed" by me and kept, "fixed" by me and sold to someone who actually wants it, or perhaps fixed by Volkswagen and kept or sold at a later date.
I am also in the last stages of buying a Sportwagon as well. It, too, will not be sold back to Volkswagen.

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Are you planning on taking the restitution?...Mark

maybe368 said:

Are you planning on taking the restitution?...Mark

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I am not sure what you mean by that. I have no interest in "taking" anything. If Volkswagen comes up with some sort of partial compliance fix that involves replacement of my bad DPF, I may consider letting them do that. That may be a year or more away though.

For now, it can sit snuggled away in my storage building next to some old tractors and some other Volkswagens and I can take it for a spin around the countryside every couple weeks like I do with the others.

maybe368 said:

Are you planning on taking the restitution?...Mark

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You cannot take the restitution until AFTER the official fix has been applied. The only exception is if your TDI is totaled and cannot drive under its own power. In this condition, there is nothing to "fix".

I suspect that a buyback will be mandatory if the EPA and VW cannot agree on a fix, unless of course, you walk away WITH your TDI. Brian stated clearly that he will be doing the modifications. That means no restitution accepted.