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Go Back   TDIClub Forums > TDI Model Specific Discussions Areas > VW MKVII-Mk7 Golf family including Golf Wagon (~ 2015 +)

VW MKVII-Mk7 Golf family including Golf Wagon (~ 2015 +) Discussions area for the Mk7 (2015+) Golf and Golf Wagon TDIs based on the MQB (Modularer Querbaukasten) platform.

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Old November 18th, 2016, 15:22   #1
witchcraftz
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Default DPF cleaning solutions

I've been looking into DPF cleaning solutions, the kind that you inject directly onto the dpf to cleanup the soot residue.
They come usually in a 2 bottle formulation
bottle 1 = cleaner
bottle 2 = rinser

I have come to the conclusion that these products are massively overpriced.
At the base all the cleaners are all made from:
Water and
1% (+/- 2%) Ethanolamine or Diethanolamine or Triethanolamine
Or some combination of the above, basically diluted Base (not acidic) degreasers/soaps! with a PH around 10.

The rinse is made from either
distilled water+coloring
or kerosene
None of this is rocket science and not worth $15 bottle for colored water!

Last edited by witchcraftz; November 18th, 2016 at 15:34.
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Old November 19th, 2016, 05:42   #2
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And they don't work.
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Old November 19th, 2016, 05:48   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by South Coast Guy View Post
And they don't work.
What makes you think your DPF needs cleaning? Soot load? Codes?
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Old November 19th, 2016, 10:51   #4
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DPF light+CEL came on. I tested it in vagcom and it reads:
soot measured = 0.12
soot calculated = 40

Did a forced regen and I got:
soot measured = 0.12
soot calculated = 60

So I figured my pressure sensor might be bad. But this car has 2 sensors...Which one is the DPF one, or are they both?
Both sensors connect somewhere to the bottom of the DFP area on one side and vent to the open on the other.



Anyone one have a diagram of this engine's dpf system?

Last edited by witchcraftz; November 19th, 2016 at 10:57.
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Old November 19th, 2016, 11:26   #5
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Both sensors are used to calculate DPF pressure. They will usually code if there is a problem with the sensor itself.
The car won't usually force a regen till .18ish soot level, so i don't think that is the problem.

What specific code did you get? Boost leak will sometimes flag a DPF plugging code, for some reason.
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Old November 19th, 2016, 12:33   #6
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P2463

1 Fault Found:
5188 - Diesel Particle Filter
P2463 00 [175] - Excessive Soot Accumulation
MIL ON - Confirmed - Tested Since Memory Clear
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00000001
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 1
Mileage: 57758 km
Date: 2016.11.15
Time: 20:34:52

Engine speed: 0.00 /min
Normed load value: 0.0 %
Vehicle speed: 0 km/h
Coolant temperature: 9 C
Intake air temperature: 9 C
Ambient air pressure: 1000 mbar
Voltage terminal 30: 12.040 V
Unlearning counter according OBD: 40
Counter for regeneration time of diesel particle filter: 0.00 s
Particle filter: kilometers since last regeneration: 154195 m
Particle filter: soot mass measured: -0.24 g
Particle filter: soot mass calculated: 60.00 g
Particl.filt.: differential pressur.sensor 1 bank 1: dyn.offset: 0 hPa

Readiness: 1 1 0 1 1
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Old November 19th, 2016, 17:39   #7
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http://pics3.tdiclub.com/data/517/820433_EA288.pdf

has some info

explained in more detail for previous engines,

the greater of calculated or measured soot calls the shots.

since this case looks like the measured soot is low, and the calculated soot is high,

the calculated soot is preventing the car from running a DPF regen.

earlier cars had a way to use VCDS to lie to the car that the DPF was replaced, which also resets the calculated soot.

this would be what I would look for.
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Old November 19th, 2016, 17:48   #8
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one more question is what prevented the regenerations to complete that should have been called for earlier?

was there another sensor not working?
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Old November 19th, 2016, 21:46   #9
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If you look at it, the last regen was 154 km ago, so fairly recently.
Also why did my soot level jump up by 20 mg when I tried a forced regen.

That pdf was gold btw!


So on my car, the large metal canister contains the dpf? And the inlet (pointing up in this pic below) is where all the soot accumulates?

So if I pull out a sensor in that top area between the turbo and DPF I should have access to where all the soot has accumulated and see how bad it actually seems?




So on my car, the large metal canister contains the dpf, the inlet (pointing up in this pic) is where all the soot accumulates?

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Old November 20th, 2016, 04:19   #10
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above photo is from a VW newsletter.

The parts you posted a photo of are not the north american design. (see the clamp on the bottom of the large canister which is not on the north american version)

the exhaust enters from the upper left,.

the rigid tubing should be connected to pressure sensors,


Soot is supposed to accumulate on the internal surface of the DPF, where it is then almost all converted to transparent gasses during regeneration.
some soot would be expected in the smaller oxidation catalyst, and in between.
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Old November 20th, 2016, 04:36   #11
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the earlier cars (2009-2014) had two exhaust pressure sensors, one across the DPF, the other across the low pressure EGR.
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Old November 20th, 2016, 07:40   #12
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Thanks meerschm, that picture helps.

So from what I'm seeing then, and with the picture posted of my engine:
the left pressure sensor is the entry pressure
the right is the exit pressure.
The calculated soot mass is based on the difference of pressure of those 2 sensors.

I feel like this DPF design is very poor then, the DPF inlet is in the middle of a system, and has a very small area in front, soot will block such a small area quickly.

Also this version doesn't come apart like the one in the picture I found so cleaning it is almost impossible.

The only way to access the DPF inlet and see what it's like is through entry pressure sensor tap.



As a side note, from my understanding, one reaction of Ethanolamine or Diethanolamine or Triethanolamine + ash = Soap
Another is that it makes oil water soluble.
So it's actually quite smart and should work. You spray the ethanolamine detergent into soot, the combination turns into a water soluble soap, then rinse it away with water.

The danger I see is that if the EGR takes exhaust after the DPF, then if there is a lot of water vapour you could hydrolock.

Last edited by witchcraftz; November 20th, 2016 at 09:07.
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Old November 20th, 2016, 07:51   #13
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Try cleaning, and/or swapping the sensors. Give the ecu a new outlook
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Old November 20th, 2016, 08:48   #14
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Yup, did that already, bought a new sensor too but no change.

I was thinking of injecting a solution made of ethanolamine detergent and water into the inlet pressure port.

Is there a risk of the water being pulled back into the Cylinder via the EGR system here?


Last edited by witchcraftz; November 20th, 2016 at 09:34.
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Old November 20th, 2016, 10:03   #15
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My free advice is not to use any liquid cleaner. but if you really want to clean it, take it off the car, and make sure it is as clean and dry as you can get it. professional cleaners use hot air. but there are those who use solvents of various kinds. (including oven cleaner or brake cleaner) the first issue is that these are dangerous to use, and the residue presents a problem.)

the first order of business is to figure out what went wrong. fix that, and then recover.

http://www.natef.org/NATEF/media/NAT...-0-TDI-SSP.pdf

the previous ssp on the earlier engine had more info on calculated vs measured soot.
Active Regeneration Function
The soot load of the particulate filter is calculated
by two pre-programmed load models in the Engine
Control Module (ECM) J623.


One of the load models is determined from the
driving profile of the user and the signals from
the exhaust gas temperature sensors and Heated
Oxygen Sensor (HO2S) G39.


Another soot load model is the flow resistance of
the particulate filter. It is calculated from the signals
of Exhaust Pressure Sensor 1 G450, Exhaust Gas
Temperature (EGT) Sensor 3 G495, and Mass Air
Flow (MAF) Sensor G70.
These are calculated and measured.

seems like similar calculations are performed for your engine.

my guess is that the high reading you see, the calculated soot, is from the first model, which does not use the pressure drop at all.

if you were to clean out the DPF, and not reset the calculated soot, you could be right where you are now.
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