www.tdiclub.com

Economy - Longevity - Performance
The #1 Source of TDI Information on the Web!
Forums Articles Links Meets
Orders TDI Club Cards TDIFest 2016 Gone, but not forgotten VAG-Com List Unit Conversions TDIClub Chat Thank You




Go Back   TDIClub Forums > VW TDI Discussion Areas > TDI Power Enhancements

TDI Power Enhancements Discussions about increasing the power of your TDI engine. i.e. chips, injectors, powerboxes, clutches, etc. Handling, suspensions, wheels, type discussion should be put into the "Upgrades (non TDI Engine related)" forum. Non TDI vehicle related postings will be moved or removed. Please note the Performance Disclaimer.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old November 11th, 2016, 22:57   #1
[486]
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: St.Paul, MN
TDI(s): 02 golf ALH
Fuel Economy: 42 stock, 47-49 now
Default 0A6 info thread

AKA MQ500
AKA the meanest transverse gearbox available so far
500nm input torque rating, coaxial slave cylinder, 1.125" 26 spline input shaft, 6spd, 190 lbs dry
They're in the TT-RS, the tiguan, seat alhambra, audi Q3, and transporter vans from what I've seen.
I've got one of them, code LMU, through the free ETKA I've found the 1,2,4-6 ratios, but nothing on the final drives or third gear. If they're the same finals as the gasoline tiguans in the US, the overall ratios on this trans are deeper in first gear and taller in 6th than the EBJ/EGR 02J's first and fifth.
The only ones in the US with the transfer case output are in the TT-RS with tall final drives and very deep change gears.

Their transfer case box outer casing will interchange with similar application automatic and DSG transfer boxes, but the splined shafts are different.
I've got the automatic transfer box and it does bolt up nicely, but the spline interface with the differential carrier is larger diameter and finer spline on the automatic, no contact is made.
The stub axle for the RF drive axle stub that passes through the transfer box is also smaller in diameter so it does not engage the front differential. The outer spline on the transfer box that the RF inner CV fits onto is the same spline as the LF output.
If you do import one, make sure to get a transfer box as well, they're uncommon over here.
The transfer box gears are 17 and 27 teeth, with the 17 tooth one going to the rear drive, propeller shaft goes 1.5663 times wheel speed. Not a common rear differential ratio at all from all my googling. I've got the rear differential from a toyota matrix, 2.27 ratio and the overdrive unit from a 42RE, ratio .69, makes for something close enough to live with through different tires.

The input shaft spline is the same as a lot of GM and Ford applications, but they're all 10" plus clutch discs, and I'm looking for some 9" ones. They'll come across me eventually.
ETA: got a 7.25" quartermaster clutch coming, took a lot of figuring but it may well turn out what nascar folk call 1 5/32" might be what everyone else calls 1 1/8", if not then I'm out another $120. To be put into a 30lb or so pot flywheel. Have to figure out if the starter ring gear's similar to the other transverse 4cyl ones...
The bellhousing has no hole for the timing marks to be accessed.
Bell bolt pattern is the same as all watercooled 4cyl. Some have been adapted to VR6 motors.
They take a 240mm clutch, DMF of course.

So, anyone else have info on them? Ratios especially!

Last edited by [486]; November 12th, 2016 at 21:37.
[486] is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 16th, 2016, 00:28   #2
Festa
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: South east uk
TDI(s): Vw t5 van
Default

They do take more torque than 500nm and I've been running close to 600nm for a few years. The only problem is the rear bearing on the first motion shaft the shaft try's to escape out the back of the box either breaking up the bearing or spinning the bearing within the case. They machine out and insert a steel sleeve to save the case but there's no uprated bearings for this as there's not enough room. Some of the other lads with the same box are running upto 650nm with the dmf failing first, I'll speak to the people who repaired mine as I've just had new gears fitted on 6th so will see if they will know the ratio's. I have an jfs code box
Festa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 16th, 2016, 11:32   #3
[486]
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: St.Paul, MN
TDI(s): 02 golf ALH
Fuel Economy: 42 stock, 47-49 now
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Festa View Post
They do take more torque than 500nm and I've been running close to 600nm for a few years. The only problem is the rear bearing on the first motion shaft the shaft try's to escape out the back of the box either breaking up the bearing or spinning the bearing within the case. They machine out and insert a steel sleeve to save the case but there's no uprated bearings for this as there's not enough room. Some of the other lads with the same box are running upto 650nm with the dmf failing first, I'll speak to the people who repaired mine as I've just had new gears fitted on 6th so will see if they will know the ratio's. I have an jfs code box
Very interesting. I assumed they'd have as much of a margin of safety as the smaller boxes, where guys are running 1.5 times the rated torque through them with decent results.

At the moment I'm working on getting my transfer box to work. Tried finding one for sale that'll ship to the US, but the only ones I can find are 4 times what an A/T tcase here goes for, or DSG which I don't know if they'll interchange. Going to weld up the shafts and respline them on my metal shaper.
I'll try and take pics as the transfer box comes apart.
[486] is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 16th, 2016, 15:19   #4
Festa
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: South east uk
TDI(s): Vw t5 van
Default

Try kernow transporters on Facebook and I know he has a eBay shop as well so he maybe able to ship over to you he has various five and six speed boxes but the six speed are stronger. Seems to have a good rating for reliability.
Festa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 20th, 2016, 21:45   #5
[486]
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: St.Paul, MN
TDI(s): 02 golf ALH
Fuel Economy: 42 stock, 47-49 now
Default

Okay, got some more info in.
Flywheel for this trans has the same 135 tooth ring gear as everything else on back to when VW ditched that wierdo inside-out clutch.
The input shaft could be called 1 1/8" or 1 5/32" depending on who your clutch manufacturer is. Basically, if it's 26 spl and fits chevies it'll fit this trans. My 7.25" quartermaster clutch showed up and turns out it's a triple disc, with almost no wear. Nascar throwaways are totally my price, $120, shipped to my door! Three plate, so I've got to call them and get their lightest diaphragm spring on the way, as that'll equate to a torque rating around 800 n/m, very much excessive, but I'm cheap and a set of "rally" friction discs to convert it over to twin disc would be $215.
The starter is the same as the 02M starter, so I can get one of those coming from car-part for about 50 bucks.
Gonna try and pack as much iron in the bellhousing as I can, guys with 1.8s run these with light SMFs, but they've got like 7:1 compression.

Oh, and the big 2.5" bearing jamb nut that holds the tiguan transfer case together is left hand thread.

Last edited by [486]; November 20th, 2016 at 21:48.
[486] is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 27th, 2016, 18:45   #6
[486]
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: St.Paul, MN
TDI(s): 02 golf ALH
Fuel Economy: 42 stock, 47-49 now
Default

So, been working toward making the auto tcase fit. Welded on a slug of steel and splined it to fit the trans' rear output. Or at least it'd fit if I'd counted the splines right. I counted 35 splines, twice. I cut 35 splines. Now I count 34 splines, twice. :c
Oh well, I'd welded on a piece of A36 and have been having bad thoughts about that for a bit now, so I'll try and get some more proper 4130 or something.
Oh, and on the little seal inside the splined tube, A/T uses 52x31x7, M/T uses 48x31x7, as the minor diameter of the splines on the M/T is 49mm, major is 53mm. AT is some fine spline larger than 53mm minor diameter.
Might put up pics in a bit, if I can get my ancient phone to take a SD card again...
[486] is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 8th, 2017, 00:21   #7
[486]
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: St.Paul, MN
TDI(s): 02 golf ALH
Fuel Economy: 42 stock, 47-49 now
Default

Suppose I should update this, if you buy an 0A6 starter you can't use the ring gear from the 02j, wrong tooth form, and incorrect spacing. I think the later ring gears are a few mm larger in OD, and the teeth on the starter are fatter, so the ones on the ring gear are narrower.

When swapping it into a mk4 car, your shifter cables will be too short, put the shifter box atop the trans tunnel, inside the car. I made a stupid complex crank arrangement to get them to reach. Pics in the twin disc thread near the end.


So far it's holding up to a ceramic twin disc clutch with an unknown pressure plate. Drop the clutch in too low a gear and you just about smack your head on the windshield, surprised the airbags haven't gone off.
LMU code is in fact a little deeper in first and a little longer in sixth, cruising at 65 mph and 2000 RPM with 195/65/15s

Last edited by [486]; September 24th, 2018 at 19:28.
[486] is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 24th, 2018, 19:24   #8
[486]
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: St.Paul, MN
TDI(s): 02 golf ALH
Fuel Economy: 42 stock, 47-49 now
Default

well, 20k miles in and it's still doing everything it should. Haven't yet figured out how I want to get power to the rear wheels yet, that'll hopefully come about soon.
Figure I'll quote some posts from my compounds thread with relevant info to this thread, reduce the data fragmentation a little bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by [486] View Post
All right, got together a new twin disc (details in sig) got an 0A6 trans from a tiguan, LMU code.
...

New trans in there.

underneath, where the Tcase should go.
The shifter cables are way too short, so I've got to cobble something together.
...

Skip a few steps and the first one's almost sorted. Going to turn the crank by a tooth on the spline to get a little more engagement from the plastic rod end to the actual shifter cable. Right now only about 1/4" of rings are grabbed by the plastic fingers.
...

stick welded, because that's all I got where the car's parked, 3/32" 6011s and 75A burns through a lot of stuff real good. Stack up the slag and it fills in.
...

Forgot the camera inside between trips inside to thaw the toes. Skip a bunch of steps and the crank is almost done, just gotta weld the last arm to the rod in this image. It's now welded and painted, drying as I type.
Quote:
Originally Posted by [486] View Post
decided to use up my PTO at work, so the car came apart
I'm not sure if I'm reworking the atmospheric turbo position to fit the transfer case, or cutting the pistons so the coolant res stops pressurizing itself with exhaust. I'll figure out what I'm gonna do with my life eventually.
Motor mount I had no idea it was broken until it was mostly apart, in fact I'd just opened the hood for greengeeker a couple days before and took the airbox out to show off the shift linkage, neither of us noticed it was cracked a half inch open.
May as well walk out and take some pics of progress, gimmie a few...

dumped the motor out on the ground, thinking hard on studs for the motor mounts, def gonna do them for the dogbone bolts in the trans, threads are just about pulled out of the trans case, prolly helicoil them 12x1.75 instead of the 12x1.5 they are from the factory, haven't looked at what the engine mount bolts are threaded, I'd assume the same 1.5.
Dogbone has to be shortened with the 0A6, factory's like 8ish inches from the K-member flange to the bolt hole, new one needs to be 6.5", been meaning to put a real stiff bushing in the bolt end anyways. Maybe a rod end bearing, I do really like those things.

so much junk, no mo room
Atmospheric is either going angled out compressor inducer pointed toward the lf headlight, or just smashed up more parallel to the HP rather than angled down as it is.

...
Got a couple LF inner joints to fit the trans, the six ball style rather than the tripod ones. Outer spline on them is slightly larger than 1.25" OD, so much beefier than the little tiny spline on the tripods. For the outer CV joints, the bolt style have a much larger shaft spline than the nut style. The spline that goes into the hub is the same, you just need to shorten the bolt or it does get smashed on the end by the CV innards.
ETA: oh right, gonna try my hand at making some 4340 shafts and having them heat treated. Hope I can find a friendly heat treater...
[486] is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 24th, 2018, 19:27   #9
[486]
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: St.Paul, MN
TDI(s): 02 golf ALH
Fuel Economy: 42 stock, 47-49 now
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by [486] View Post
Got the 4340 ordered for the shafts, only local place that had it wanted 95 bucks, place in michigan wanted 50, shipped to my door, double you tee eff (is word filtered, oddly enough)
Some pics,

turbos off

...
Quote:
Originally Posted by [486] View Post
So, got the motor together

fixed the problem of no timing pointer with the new trans

transfer punch marks from both sides of piston stop, .100" is 1 deg on this circumference. I only made a TDC mark, thought about making extra punches for a few degrees to either side, but why bother, pump timing is guess and check anyways.
some pictures of how the timing pointer is handled, with a lack of a timing pointer I had to make my own. Web between the two holes makes the pointer arrow and the punch marks from either side of a piston stop get measured out to put the zero mark directly in the center.
Quote:
Originally Posted by [486] View Post

another look above the Tcase

The 4340 for the axles finally showed up, turned them down, splined them on the metal shaper and had them heat treated to 47RC. Really should have took pics of the process again, but w/e.
...
Now the center shaft inside the Tcase should be the weak point. Shame as it is only available here in the audi TT-RS so if it's broke that puts me outta commission for while. All the more reason to get the 4wd going soon.
bit more relevant posts, with transfer case on engine
Shame that I don't have too many pics of how it looks now, it is very crammed into the chassis, but it looks like even the transfer box output will clear the steering rack with the rubber doughnut joint that they use.

ETA: the no-VSS problem was solved with a 7 toothed reluctor wheel shrink fit onto one of the CV axles. Used a three wire hall effect sensor to act as the VSS and it's accurate enough with 195/65/15s

ETA2: further transfer case information, the DQ500 (big DSG) transfer box fits and the splines engage with the MQ500, the right side intermediate shaft is not gundrilled for the bolt that holds it in the differential side gear but that doesn't seem to affect anything. It instead uses a spring c clip for retention, when the press fit of the needle bearings are the real method of retention.
The automatic tiguan transfer box will bolt up, but neither shaft actually makes contact with their mating shafts.

Last edited by [486]; September 24th, 2018 at 19:34.
[486] is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 5th, 2018, 23:24   #10
iwannajettatdi
Veteran Member
 
iwannajettatdi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Salem, OR
Default

Hey [486], this is some awesome info. I've been able to piece together most of this myself reading on the UK/euro transporter forums. I've gotten a 6 speed 0a5 from a 140/180bhp T5 transporter van with the hopes of swapping it into my T4 eurovan. I've currently got a BHW mated to an 02d 5 speed syncro box, but it's geared too low for the type of traveling we want to use it for.

I've got a flywheel, and I had initially ordered a stage 2 endurance clutch kit from South Bend. Obviously the clutch disc didn't mate up to the 0a5 output shaft. I don't remember the size/tooth count off hand, but I had to order a clutch disc from Darkside Developments (love those guys and RyanP has set up a killer website and business, his shipping costs are also super reasonable.) Bolting everything up I noticed that the T5 clutch disc was thicker than the one that was initially made for the 02m set I bought from Southbend. For many reasons I ended up using the 02d just to get the van running at the time, but this winter I'm going to properly fit up the 0a5 gearbox. It's got the 4motion transfer case as well, so I'm excited to adapt the 4motion rear end as well eventually and use a standalone controller. I was tinkering around and found out that the T4 eurovan axles are splined the same and actually fit into the 0a5 inner CV joints. That makes fitting an older axle to the newer stub axles plug and play in a sense. It will also make fitting the axles way easier as I think I'll just have to cut down the T4 axles 15-20mm each side so they'll fit properly in the van/control arms. I'm still not sure completely about that though.

I have a few questions for you regarding the clutch discs. Do you know which Chevy/GM discs will fit? Are they from a specific model? Will any of the 9-9.25" 26 spline discs fit on an 0a5/6 output shaft? Any thoughts on running a clutch disc that is thicker than what the PP is designed for? My concern would be that it wouldn't release appropriately when the clutch was depressed. Is that unfounded?

Also, do the Tiguan's use the stub axle CV joints to connect to the gearbox? It appears the pictures of the 0a6 you have posted have stub axles that the CVs attach to vs. the cup and 6 bolt flange I'm used to on the 02j/m. Do you happen to know the size and spline count of the stub shafts? That would make sourcing inner joints soooooo much easier than trying to find/order from Ebay Romania like last time.

Edit: Nevermind, after digging around the T5 stubs are 26 spline for manual, 42 for auto. The Tiguan appears to be 40, so wouldn't fit either stubs. Still curious about the clutch discs though!

Thanks! -Ryan
__________________
2002 Eurovan TDI BHW 02d syncro project - The Adventure Bus
2014 MK6 JSW, DSG, 33k miles -
2011 MK6 Golf, 6MT, 120k miles - Just emissions fixed
Gone-2006 V10 Touareg TDI
DEAD-99.5 A4 Jetta, 349,919 miles RIPieces

Last edited by iwannajettatdi; October 6th, 2018 at 00:09.
iwannajettatdi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 6th, 2018, 10:23   #11
[486]
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: St.Paul, MN
TDI(s): 02 golf ALH
Fuel Economy: 42 stock, 47-49 now
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by iwannajettatdi View Post

I have a few questions for you regarding the clutch discs. Do you know which Chevy/GM discs will fit? Are they from a specific model? Will any of the 9-9.25" 26 spline discs fit on an 0a5/6 output shaft? Any thoughts on running a clutch disc that is thicker than what the PP is designed for? My concern would be that it wouldn't release appropriately when the clutch was depressed. Is that unfounded?
any of them that are 26 spline and 1 1/8 or 1 5/32 diameter, I do not know why they seem to call it two different names, the input shaft itself measures out to 1 1/8", the discs I've had in mine the last few thousand miles are listed in the catalog as 1 5/32 but they sure fit nice and perfect on the 1 1/8" shaft

It will likely release fine if there's clearance in there, you might run out of clearance or release bearing travel though
one option is to take the flywheel (if single mass) to an automotive machine shop and have them make the step a little bit deeper. On a DMF they are far too thin to cut down like that, so I'd get some high quality ground and hardened washers to space the pressure plate off the flywheel by the same amount as the thickness difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iwannajettatdi View Post
Also, do the Tiguan's use the stub axle CV joints to connect to the gearbox? It appears the pictures of the 0a6 you have posted have stub axles that the CVs attach to vs. the cup and 6 bolt flange I'm used to on the 02j/m. Do you happen to know the size and spline count of the stub shafts? That would make sourcing inner joints soooooo much easier than trying to find/order from Ebay Romania like last time.
They do indeed have little male splined stubs on either side.
I'm using the left front inner joint from tiguan/t5, the 6 ball style rather than the tripod style.
The rf inner is tripod style, same female spline but not as strong inside, the shaft necks down quite far. This shaft is actually available in the USA as auto/4motion tiguans still use it, where the LF inner is a male 26spl on the (tripod style) joint.
I ran one of these joints for a while when I had it set up as 2wd with welded together axleshafts that I broke rather spectacularly, all the internals are the same as the generic automatic trans tripod joints I describe below, they swap around happily and there are actually a lot of different length axles available but good luck finding the one you'd need. I've got three different length ones here in a bucket somewhere just from junk I've dragged home.
Quote:
Originally Posted by iwannajettatdi View Post
Edit: Nevermind, after digging around the T5 stubs are 26 spline for manual, 42 for auto. The Tiguan appears to be 40, so wouldn't fit either stubs. Still curious about the clutch discs though!
The 26 spline is the end that goes into the gearbox itself on automatics, iirc. They've got a real coarse spline, male stub on the axleshaft that is common amongst a huge number of models that use the tripod style inner joints.
The 42 spline I believe is an internal gearbox spline, the auto axles go into cups that fit in the side gears of the differential or something like that, I've never had one apart past swapping an axle shaft.
The 40 spl is common among both sides of the tiguan/t5 manual trans with mq500, this spline also shows up on the right front inner of automatic and DSG 4motion tiguans.
[486] is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
dweise- One Last Thread-Contact Info dweisel VW MKV-A5 Golf/Jettas 44 November 2nd, 2010 21:52
505.01 thread, more info kuproverto Fuels & Lubricants 52 February 6th, 2006 12:29
Old turbo info thread gone? TDIMeister TDI Power Enhancements 30 January 22nd, 2006 17:43


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:54.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright - TDIClub Online LTD - 2017
Contact Us | Privacy Statement | Forum Rules | Disclaimer
TDIClub Online Ltd (TDIClub.com) is not affiliated with the VWoA or VWAG and is supported by contributions from viewers like you.
1996 - 2017, All Rights Reserved
Page generated in 0.19078 seconds with 10 queries
[Output: 128.01 Kb. compressed to 111.11 Kb. by saving 16.90 Kb. (13.20%)]